The Tool Age of NS

[Shadow Afforess]

I've raised this before - NationStates could go (mostly) open source. Then instead of working on plugins/extensions people like me could submit features directly into the game (if approved by the admins) and everyone could benefit. Important secret sauce like how stats calculations work, etc would have to be recoded a bit to be hidden, but I suspect 90% of the code could be open sourced without revealing secrets.

I can certainly see the benefits to this. You often say that you created NS++ to give NS the features it should already have. The fact that a lot of your users have difficultly using vanilla NS after using NS++ shows that the utility is there, and shows that users tend to prefer the additions. This point grows stronger when you remember what happened when NS++ first came around, where new NS++ features quickly found their way as a feature on vanilla NS.

I don't know how easy it would be to open things up for public addition, I'm sure it would take quite a bit of time to make sure the sensitive stuff is properly separated from the stuff the public would have access to. The time and effort needed for that would constitute its own project that would steal away from any planned updates to the current game, though, so it seems unlikely that we would see that change.

I think the long term costs of such an endeavor outweigh short term features. Even if it takes a year, and in that time we get no new features, it will be worth it, because then afterwords, anyone with programming knowledge can contribute back, not just Ballotonia or [violet].

Some people have told me I should just abandon NS and make my own nation simulator. But I think NationStates has a large and brilliant community already, and it seems silly to compete when we could combine.

[Shizensky]

I can certainly see the benefits to this. You often say that you created NS++ to give NS the features it should already have. The fact that a lot of your users have difficultly using vanilla NS after using NS++ shows that the utility is there, and shows that users tend to prefer the additions. This point grows stronger when you remember what happened when NS++ first came around, where new NS++ features quickly found their way as a feature on vanilla NS.

I don't know how easy it would be to open things up for public addition, I'm sure it would take quite a bit of time to make sure the sensitive stuff is properly separated from the stuff the public would have access to. The time and effort needed for that would constitute its own project that would steal away from any planned updates to the current game, though, so it seems unlikely that we would see that change.

I think the long term costs of such an endeavor outweigh short term features. Even if it takes a year, and in that time we get no new features, it will be worth it, because then afterwords, anyone with programming knowledge can contribute back, not just Ballotonia or [violet].

Some people have told me I should just abandon NS and make my own nation simulator. But I think NationStates has a large and brilliant community already, and it seems silly to compete when we could combine.

I agree. We stand to gain a lot and more quickly, it's just that the initial investment could seem daunting with a project that has been in development for over a decade and wasn't designed to be open-sourced at any point.

[[violet]]

Is it an over reaction on my part to be concerned that tools / add-ons are not closely scrutinized? As it stands anyone can build any tool and present it here on the forum. I do not know how closely you police those so it may be the case that they are monitored for illegal / malicious actions.

That's definitely a valid concern, and why Afforess and I have bumped heads in the past: I feel responsibility for ensuring that NS++ meets a certain baseline; i.e. assuring myself that it's more likely to be good than evil. But it's a tough spot to be in, since I can't guarantee anything. The user really does run it at their own risk.

Mostly I see my role as making sure that users can make a well-informed choice: that is, that they understand what NS++ can and can't do if they run it. Afforess has gone to quite a lot of trouble to make most of the source code for NS++ public, and provided server access so we can poke around, which has made me feel much more comfortable about what it's doing, especially compared to the earlier days when it was fetching and executing code that nobody knew about. But in the end I can't know for sure what it's up to, nor what it might do tomorrow.

The fact that a lot of your users have difficultly using vanilla NS after using NS++ shows that the utility is there, and shows that users tend to prefer the additions. This point grows stronger when you remember what happened when NS++ first came around, where new NS++ features quickly found their way as a feature on vanilla NS.

What do you miss most when you stop using NS++? The idea is definitely to have some cross-pollination of features. I haven't really looked at this for a while.

[[violet]]

I've raised this before - NationStates could go (mostly) open source.

It's something we've looked at, and may still happen. Certainly we've always said that if NS was unable to continue for whatever reason, we'd open source so that someone could pick it up and carry on. It has some serious manpower requirements, though, because we'd be in that position of having to review and critique every code submission. And I don't really want to change jobs from coder to reviewer.

It's really unlikely that a lot of the stuff you put into NS++ would make it through that kind of process, especially quickly, for a whole lot of reasons, not least that we tend to have long debates about any new feature that will affect an existing community. So the current situation, where you can create a fast-changing browser extension as you please, without oversight, and people can use that if they choose, is a lot more productive than one in which you would code and have to wait for me to review and accept your submissions.

That said, I have no doubt that you could submit a bunch of good patches if you had the source code.

[Shizensky]

What do you miss most when you stop using NS++? The idea is definitely to have some cross-pollination of features. I haven't really looked at this for a while.

The puppet switcher is the first thing that comes to mind. I probably utilize that more than most of the other features.

Some other things aren't as important, but I feel like it makes things easier. The BBCode buttons, for instance. The ability to click the button for formatting tags is nice sometimes, especially for the region and nation tags. I feel like there are a few smaller things I can't think of at the moment.

[Shadow Afforess]

I've raised this before - NationStates could go (mostly) open source.

It's something we've looked at, and may still happen. Certainly we've always said that if NS was unable to continue for whatever reason, we'd open source so that someone could pick it up and carry on. It has some serious manpower requirements, though, because we'd be in that position of having to review and critique every code submission. And I don't really want to change jobs from coder to reviewer.

I agree its not fun. I've had that happen in projects I founded before, where the number of contributors led me to become a manager because the submission volume took all my time to just review. And I don't think there is an easy answer to solving this. However, one idea to reduce the amount reviewing you would have to do might be to also run a "testbed" NationStates site that has very fast updates and resets every time experimental code is added.

It's really unlikely that a lot of the stuff you put into NS++ would make it through that kind of process, especially quickly, for a whole lot of reasons, not least that we tend to have long debates about any new feature that will affect an existing community. So the current situation, where you can create a fast-changing browser extension as you please, without oversight, and people can use that if they choose, is a lot more productive than one in which you would code and have to wait for me to review and accept your submissions.

That said, I have no doubt that you could submit a bunch of good patches if you had the source code.

I fully understand the turnaround time would be nowhere near as fast as what I have now, but there are lots of good ideas from NS++ that are simple and could quickly be merged. Some in no general order:

• Check if user has submitted invalid bbcodes in telegram/rmb, warn them before submitting
• RMB Search form
• Highlighting author posts in forum threads
• Show pending WA legislative proposals in queue on the sidebar for WA delegates
• Scrollable census ranking lists
• More WA stats in nation pages

Most of that can be done in javascript. The last one might need some backend improvements. I don't think any of these changes would be controversial.

I guess my point is that I don't expect any code to carry over, but I think NS++ has a lot of good ideas for improvements.

[Leutria]

I think my favorite things are the puppet switcher and perhaps the population graph for regions (as silly of a little thing as that last one is)

[Jeffersonborg]

What do you miss most when you stop using NS++? The idea is definitely to have some cross-pollination of features. I haven't really looked at this for a while.

Regional newspapers/easy links to maps and irc. I think those are the main reasons newbies would feel 'pressured' into using NS++. These are features which directly affect your ability to be involved in the region vs those who have NS++ as they can see and discuss thing you can't see.

Other features, while nifty, mainly benefit yourself.

[[violet]]

What are the differences between a regional newspaper and a dispatch? I'm not quite sure what you can do there with NS++ that you can't do without it.

[Shadow Afforess]

What are the differences between a regional newspaper and a dispatch? I'm not quite sure what you can do there with NS++ that you can't do without it.

Newspapers have more than one article listed (up to 20), have a column or flat horizontal style for article layout, allow multiple editors, and allow submissions from outside users (which appear in a submission queue and must be edited/approved manually by the editors).

Basically, the way it works is that the delegate/founder can press a button to "found" a newspaper. They are made the "editor in chief", which is a super-editor position that can do things like rename the newspaper and set a byline (catchy phrase for the newspaper). They can never be removed as an editor unless they disband the newspaper. The editor in chief can add regular editors, who can add and edit any articles, but can not rename the newspaper, can not add editors, nor disband it. So newspapers allow regions to create a group of people to maintain it (outside of the founder/delegate), but can't destroy it. Newspapers also allow outside volunteer submissions (only 1 submission per nation can be in the pending queue at a time, to prevent a user from spamming a newspaper with garbage over and over). Newspapers appear in the sidebar if you live in the region, and you get a (*) notice when new articles appear.

So there is a ton of differences. There is no way to do collaborative dispatches, show groups of dispatches together, to show the dispatch updates in the sidebar, etc.

[The Leningrad Union]

There should be a little Facebook type thing where it tells you when someone has replied to your posts or something like that. You would be able to edit it to say what threads you want to see replies to, etc.

XenForo has a system like that.

[Vicious Debaters]

I don't really see it as a 'tool age' really. I mean, use the 'tools' if you want to.

I've never used addons or extensions, and I never plan on doing so. And I have to say that my user experience (when it comes to graphical layout, features, or ability to interact with the website) is just fine.

I do think it would be interesting to see the number of players using tools/extensions- I think the majority of NS players probably don't use any. But that's just a guess.

[Shadow Afforess]

I do think it would be interesting to see the number of players using tools/extensions- I think the majority of NS players probably don't use any. But that's just a guess.

I posted stats here for the 1 year anniversary: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=269464&start=1275#p20287292

[Vicious Debaters]

I posted stats here for the 1 year anniversary: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopi ... #p20287292

Very Nice! Thank you.

[The Bruce]

I think that once the Raider-Defender became script vs script and NS++ came onto the scene you had a completely different focus of third party applications.

Before the current state of NS apps, you had a lot of economic calculators and the occasional black market script popping up. The new focus is more on driving the game, instead of just reporting data.

It's pretty hard to turn back the clock on this and I'm not sure everyone wants to. It does however put players in a less vetted arena for using those 3rd party applications, when before they most definitely knew they were using apps of questionable origin. The problem is that the more nations and regions that accept any 3rd party application, the more they give the appearance of it being site endorsed. Much like nation population though, there's no really good way to fix this without someone feeling wronged.

[Glen-Rhodes]

My concern is that at what point does it become impossible to play / keep up for the average player? Technically a new player should not have to download / trust any other site other than NS to play the game. Yet we see advances that can only be used by placing trust in other players that is very misleading.
The fact that this site allows these scripts / addons/ extensions to be distributed is misleading to players, more so to new players. If you trust the extension enough to allow it to be distributed from the site so do they.

It seems these threads pop up every couple of months, now, making the same arguments. No matter how valid of a point it is, there's no easy or hard way to control the flow of third-party browser add-ons and off-site tools. With everything you do on a computer, whether it's install software, download a plugin, or enter information into a form, there's is no guarantee that the people on the other end are trustworthy. The internet has solved this problem to the best of its ability through reputation and, in rare cases, certification. No matter how many threads are made on this topic, the answer will always be, "You download third-party tools at your own risk. We can't stop people from making them or using them."

It's better for these tools to be advertised and distributed mainly through the forums, because then it's much easier for people to inflict reputation costs to a wide audience. So while there may be concern that developers promoting their tools through the NS website could lead people to believe they are endorsed by NS, driving them away from the NS website is the equivalent to creating a black market. You lose what little quality control you had. Think of it this way: would you rather download a Chrome extension from the Chrome Web Store, or some random website you've never heard of, where there's not even a way for people to post reviews?

Also, the point about the "average user" meme. It's easy to assume that the "average player" can't use the popular tools, because at the beginning of the script revolution, a lot of the tools were rudimentary and required fiddling with code or generally doing things in a "hackish" way. However, the most popular tools are now very user-friendly. Developers like Afforess make their tools user-friendly because they want more users. So I don't think this criticism is valid anymore. There is no point where it becomes impossible to play for the "average player," because these tools are designed to be intuitive, or at least easy to figure out after a little reading, for the average person. There are some niche tools that some groups use, written years ago and updated never, that are difficult to set up. But "average players" seem to have figured them out some way or another.

[Wordy]

Agreed with Bruce ^

There are also coming features to NS++ that will naturally draw a lot more users. The proposed unlimited Telegram Box and Forum hosting. Both of these trouble me for a few reasons.
Unlimited Telegrams means users that may have become Site Supporters (drawn to the reward of unlimited Telegrams) might take the free option and install NS++ ....so loss of a small amount of income to the Site.
Now not knowing a lot about NS++ I do not know how those Telegrams are to be stored. So privacy is definitely an issue.
While Afforess may have measures in place that protect privacy....there is nothing to stop another script writer from offering the same thing that may not be interested in protecting privacy.

Forum hosting also is a concern. I worry again about privacy issues as I imagine that if a user of NS++ used the forum hosting service....does that then mean the forum can only be used by NS++ users? Or does it then capture the information of users that so far have not used the application but do use the hosted forum?

Perhaps I should be asking these questions in the thread dedicated to NS++. I pose these questions here though as it is a bigger issue than NS++.
Anyone can offer the same things and I see no limits being set.

[Glen-Rhodes]

While Afforess may have measures in place that protect privacy....there is nothing to stop another script writer from offering the same thing that may not be interested in protecting privacy.

Yes, that's the inherent risk of downloading third-party tools. If the code is proprietary, there is no way to tell what is going on under the hood, so you should be skeptical. You know that NS++ is open-source, which means any fishy code can be pointed out by those who know what they're looking at (and there are plenty of us who do). So you'll choose the more trustworthy option. That's how reputation works, and it's the foundation of trust on the internet.

Anyone can offer the same things and I see no limits being set.

The kind of limits you want just aren't possible. You're confronting an issue that's existed since the dawn of widely distributed software written by independent developers. There's nothing NS feasibly can do for you. You can either trust in a developer's reputation, or you can abstain from using their tools. That's a choice everybody has to make for themselves. Your skepticism and distrust of how NS++ handles privacy shouldn't be leveraged to stop other people from using it, but it's definitely right to ask questions about how Afforess is handling privacy concerns.

[Wordy]

Well with 7046 unique players have logged into NationStates++ in the last 30 days and 126 different regions currently run active recruitment campaigns through NationStates++, I most certainly am not trying to stop them using it....last thing I need is to be condemned 7046 times

I point out these coming features as Violet has asked what players would miss at the moment. Once unlimited TG boxes and forums are available ....it makes a huge difference to what NS can realistically offer that makes using an add-on less attractive

[Warzone Defender]

NS++ offers ad-free service, which I paid for. I have to agree there.

[Nephmir]

I'd rather support the site itself by paying than download an extension of it.

[[violet]]

Newspapers have more than one article listed (up to 20), have a column or flat horizontal style for article layout, allow multiple editors, and allow submissions from outside users (which appear in a submission queue and must be edited/approved manually by the editors).

Thanks, this is interesting. I've been long developing a way to subscribe to Dispatches (by author/subject/whatever), so you can easily find ones you might be interested in, but it's quite finnicky, and maybe the way to go is indeed as a simple newspaper, where somebody else compiles the content for you.

You know that NS++ is open-source, which means any fishy code can be pointed out by those who know what they're looking at (and there are plenty of us who do).

This gets overstated a bit, though. There's no guarantee that what you see in the code repository is what you'll get when you download an extension, and indeed NS++ has been detected in the past silently fetching and executing code that was nowhere to be found in the public repo. (Afforess says he has since modified NS++ so it can no longer do this.)

I'd rather support the site itself by paying than download an extension of it.

NS++ is a bit odd in that it doesn't merely add functionality but also attempts to duplicate for free what is sold in the NS Store, while adding links to a site where Afforess runs ads. This is fairly small scale, I believe - I don't think Afforess's revenue exceeds his costs - but it's edging towards what we'd consider unacceptable. That is, we probably wouldn't support a tool that took a feature we provide via the Store, duplicated it, and sold it back to players. Because that wouldn't be adding anything new to the community; it would simply be diverting revenue from the site to the tool author.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

NS++ has had a great levelling effect, by making tools that historically only "elite" GPers had access to freely available. I'm sure many of us can remember when TG scripts, regional security tools, tarting tools, etc were in limited circulation. The major regions all had access to them, but newcomers to GP didn't and would never get access unless they had their own scripter or made the right friends.

NS++ ended that, and made GP easier to access and gave new players a better chance of competing. Surely that's a good thing.

[Glen-Rhodes]

You know that NS++ is open-source, which means any fishy code can be pointed out by those who know what they're looking at (and there are plenty of us who do).

This gets overstated a bit, though. There's no guarantee that what you see in the code repository is what you'll get when you download an extension, and indeed NS++ has been detected in the past silently fetching and executing code that was nowhere to be found in the public repo. (Afforess says he has since modified NS++ so it can no longer do this.)

For what it's worth, Chrome extensions are just packed javascript and HTML files. You can actually decompress a .crx just like a .zip. So while we can't verify 100% what's going on server-side, we can always know what's in the extension itself, including what it's sending to Afforess' server.

[Shadow Afforess]

\
NS++ is a bit odd in that it doesn't merely add functionality but also attempts to duplicate for free what is sold in the NS Store, while adding links to a site where Afforess runs ads. This is fairly small scale, I believe - I don't think Afforess's revenue exceeds his costs - but it's edging towards what we'd consider unacceptable. That is, we probably wouldn't support a tool that took a feature we provide via the Store, duplicated it, and sold it back to players. Because that wouldn't be adding anything new to the community; it would simply be diverting revenue from the site to the tool author.

To clarify, I no longer run ads on anything, anywhere. Until a week ago, NSWiki.org had 1 ad in the sidebar, which is now gone. In addition, I have no plans to "charge" for any features, or create free/premium tiers.

The unlimited telegrams box feature seems a fairly important to give to all players, not just site supporters. It is trivial in terms of storage space to provide all players unlimited space, so the scarcity NationStates provides is purely artificial. In addition, purchasing site supporter status does not confer that status upon your puppets, which many nations have. I would have to pay hundreds, if not thousands, to obtain unlimited space on all the puppets. I'm sure many players are in a similar situation.

If NationStates were capable of conferring supporter status onto puppets, I could be convinced to drop my plans for that feature. My goal is not to compete with NationStates, but to expand it.