Regional 'opt-out' for R/D? [Gameplay/Proposal]

[Arumdaum]

Well if it's clear there's griefing going on, put it up in a GHR with any pertinent proof y'all have.

What's clear griefing?

Would Vallend count? It was raided not too long ago, and when the Founder made a post that was angry at the raiders, along with some other person making a post continuing it, they soon raided again, like twice in a single week.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I'm encouraging on-site rp. But on the forums, where your rp isn't interrupted (or if it is, is easily sorted out), and there's no loss/degradation of rp'd actions/info/etc.

Offsite was always more of a staging grounds than anything, although there was some rp that went on - at least in the case of the folks I was offsite with, with the exception of Mars, which was predominantly rp.

As for the Fanboyist's post - one thing that stands out is the why of it. R/D by nature is more likely to collide with anyone who resides in a region. They aren't likely to collide on the forums, as they don't inhabit both. As stated repeatedly, tools are in place. They were put in place to address the same concerns that are being brought up again in this thread. Use them. It isn't a perfect solution, but there is not likely to be a perfect solution due to the very problem laying at the core - where these groups tend to collide.

I would suggest that the best solution is to have active founders, though I like the transferable foundership bit quite a lot, due to real life happening regardless of intent, to not have delegate controls on account, to have your WA's up and ready and endorsing properly if you do have a delegate, whether you participate in the WA or GP bits or not, and take your rp to the forums where it won't be interrupted.

Got to hit the grocery store, or I'd be happy to continue posting - just don't want anyone to think I've gone off and ignored anyone going forward. Something tells me this will continue to move forward at a rapid pace in the interim. Please just keep it civil - thanks folks!

[Parone92]

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[The Fanboyists]

An exemption from R/D for a group of people based on the way they play the game is unfair to those who don't play the game that way (i.e. generalites, the GA folks, and people who don't even use the forums at all but just hang out with friends in their region).

Well, the tools we're asking for would be accessible to everyone. They just make R/D more difficult. But Generalites, NSD, P2TM, F7ers, hell, R/D'ers would be able to use them. So what the hell is your objection, then?

[The Fanboyists]

I'm encouraging on-site rp. But on the forums, where your rp isn't interrupted (or if it is, is easily sorted out), and there's no loss/degradation of rp'd actions/info/etc.

Offsite was always more of a staging grounds than anything, although there was some rp that went on - at least in the case of the folks I was offsite with, with the exception of Mars, which was predominantly rp.

As for the Fanboyist's post - one thing that stands out is the why of it. R/D by nature is more likely to collide with anyone who resides in a region. They aren't likely to collide on the forums, as they don't inhabit both. As stated repeatedly, tools are in place. They were put in place to address the same concerns that are being brought up again in this thread. Use them. It isn't a perfect solution, but there is not likely to be a perfect solution due to the very problem laying at the core - where these groups tend to collide.

I would suggest that the best solution is to have active founders, though I like the transferable foundership bit quite a lot, due to real life happening regardless of intent, to not have delegate controls on account, to have your WA's up and ready and endorsing properly if you do have a delegate, whether you participate in the WA or GP bits or not, and take your rp to the forums where it won't be interrupted.

Got to hit the grocery store, or I'd be happy to continue posting - just don't want anyone to think I've gone off and ignored anyone going forward. Something tells me this will continue to move forward at a rapid pace in the interim. Please just keep it civil - thanks folks!

That "areas of collision" concept is why I get that a full-out exemption, for both practical and logical reasons, can't be a thing. I think at this point, most reasonable RP Community members are just asking that we be given the tools to maintain our defenses against R/D without having to learn the arcane system that is required to participate in R/D itself (because if we wanted any part of that, we would be in R/D ourselves).

[Mad Jack]

3. Because "more than two" definitely helps when there's a coordinated hostile take-over using more people than your region even had previously (nevermind more WA Nations).

Show me one raid of an RP region in the last 6 months where that happened.

[Parone92]

Well I'll just start crapping on raiders in my roleplays from now on, if nothing else is going to be done. If invaders like the Black Riders will give no respect to RP regions, then I'm not going to have any trouble dragging random raider nations through the mud in my RPs. They actually serve the role of vague nations I can invade and occupy.

[Cerian Quilor]

Why the hell would you have believed that in the first place?

There is no 'soft' opt-out. There never has been. There's no such thing.

And to those people that say you're not proposing killing Gameplay - yes, you really are. Any application of your idea that could even remotely 'work' would effectively kill Gameplay. It would be a slow death, but it would be a death.

@Kassaran: Raiders who have malice (which is far from all of them) do so in the context of the game as well, just as rpers who rp with malice do in the context of their rps.

Roleplayers are not some special group of flowers that need magical protections against the rest of the game. You have the same tools everyone else does, and you don't deserve special treatment. The game mechanics are the same for everyone, and that's the way it should always be. And saying the site administration doesn't support you and doesn't care is the second biggest pile of hockey I've read on these forums today.

If I can't get an opt out from your crap, then I'm going to fight you, clan-waz style.

Clan-waz? what is that?

And I'd like an opt out from your crap - that is, people like you trying to destroy the part of the game I play. At most, we disrupt Rpers with raids. Your proposal would destroy R/D. Not equivalent.

[Delmonte]

If I can't get an opt out from your crap, then I'm going to fight you, clan-waz style.

Clan-waz? what is that?

And I'd like an opt out from your crap - that is, people like you trying to destroy the part of the game I play. At most, we disrupt Rpers with raids. Your proposal would destroy R/D. Not equivalent.

You're implying that the status quo is that your game has the right to exist at the expense of ours. What disgusting entitlement.

[Rephesus]

There has been multiple proposals stating ways to exempt RP regions while still allowing raiders to go after tiny founderless boneyards like they do anyway.

[The Fanboyists]

3. Because "more than two" definitely helps when there's a coordinated hostile take-over using more people than your region even had previously (nevermind more WA Nations).

Show me one raid of an RP region in the last 6 months where that happened.

For all I know, it has; I don't pay enough attention to inter-regional affairs because until that side of gameplay starts impeding, or threatening to impede, my ability to do what I have stayed on NS for (RPing), I don't particularly give a shit what happens in the R/D aspect.

Maybe it hasn't happened to an RP region. I note that you specified "show me one raid of an RP region in the last 6 months where that happened." Suggests to me that you have reason to think it's happened to non-RP regions more recently, or it has happened to RP regions before the last six months. The fact is, it IS a possibility, and it's certainly a plausible fear for RPers. There's certainly nothing stopping it from happening besides that nobody's bothered yet. But for years, nobody had bothered, for the most part, to raid RP regions at all, and then it started happening more. So just because that specific set of conditions hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen, or that we shouldn't have some safeguard against it that is relatively unobtrusive to R/D.

Also, I fail to see how a transferable Foundership "destroys R/D". It makes R/D a little more difficult, but well, you make our lives a little more difficult, too. Fair is fair.

[Kassaran]

Clan-waz? what is that?

And I'd like an opt out from your crap - that is, people like you trying to destroy the part of the game I play. At most, we disrupt Rpers with raids. Your proposal would destroy R/D. Not equivalent.

Oh, wow, because all of a few regions wanting to avoid R/D leave, you guys will suddenly no longer exist? Bite me, that's a big load of it if I've ever heard it. There are plenty of regions that start up that aren't TP focused and I know it because I have trouble finding them. Now I doubt your credibility as a decent raider because anyone capable of doing simple math would understand the numbers simply don't add up to the death of R/D. If anything, this will focus the raider's forces and make them more successful in attacking those regions that are in lack of such a goal as RPing. I feel however you simply are a troll, plain and simple, for you want access to any victim out there and grief/troll them.

[The North Polish Union]

An exemption from R/D for a group of people based on the way they play the game is unfair to those who don't play the game that way (i.e. generalites, the GA folks, and people who don't even use the forums at all but just hang out with friends in their region).

Well, the tools we're asking for would be accessible to everyone. They just make R/D more difficult. But Generalites, NSD, P2TM, F7ers, hell, R/D'ers would be able to use them. So what the hell is your objection, then?

It's this:

There's a point. It might have been said already, I don't know.

If someone can opt out of being raided because they're in a "RP region", it'll create a precedent where anyone can opt out of raiding if they want to. Regions will start being tagged to avoid raiding. Other groups will complain. "If RP regions can avoid raiding, why can't we? We don't want to be raided either."

This would lead to a sudden rush where almost all potential raiding targets disappear. This would totally ruin the Raider/Defender functions of NS.

Raiding/Defending is an important aspect of this site, and has been here since the creation of the site. You shouldn't get rid of it just because your sore about your region being raided.

[Kassaran]

There's a point. It might have been said already, I don't know.

If someone can opt out of being raided because they're in a "RP region", it'll create a precedent where anyone can opt out of raiding if they want to. Regions will start being tagged to avoid raiding. Other groups will complain. "If RP regions can avoid raiding, why can't we? We don't want to be raided either."

This would lead to a sudden rush where almost all potential raiding targets disappear. This would totally ruin the Raider/Defender functions of NS.

Raiding/Defending is an important aspect of this site, and has been here since the creation of the site. You shouldn't get rid of it just because your sore about your region being raided.

RP and R/D are really the only two ways people play. If there are those in the middle, they probably don't care about what happens. Let's look at it this way, when people start, they're just trying to get started. Not create an RP Nation generally. I know that wasn't my goal to begin with, but I did it anyways, because you can't RP if you're too small for anyone to care about, it just doesn't work out too well...

[The Fanboyists]

Well, the tools we're asking for would be accessible to everyone. They just make R/D more difficult. But Generalites, NSD, P2TM, F7ers, hell, R/D'ers would be able to use them. So what the hell is your objection, then?

It's this:

There's a point. It might have been said already, I don't know.

If someone can opt out of being raided because they're in a "RP region", it'll create a precedent where anyone can opt out of raiding if they want to. Regions will start being tagged to avoid raiding. Other groups will complain. "If RP regions can avoid raiding, why can't we? We don't want to be raided either."

This would lead to a sudden rush where almost all potential raiding targets disappear. This would totally ruin the Raider/Defender functions of NS.

Raiding/Defending is an important aspect of this site, and has been here since the creation of the site. You shouldn't get rid of it just because your sore about your region being raided.

Which is why what I and many others are talking about isn't a tagging for RP regions. It's making the protection granted to regions with Founders are more permanent than the lifespan of an individual nation (see: the recurring suggestion of transferable Foundership). It's just an expansion of existing tools. If you oppose *that*, you're just being butt-hurt about not being able to fuck up the handiwork of whoever you want.

[Anemos Major]

It might be worth approaching this from a slightly different angle - things are getting somewhat heated again, and we're recycling old and worn out perspectives in a fairly unproductive way.

It's something that I've been wondering about, and perhaps there're a few raiders or otherwise active R/Ders who can answer one of my 'bigger' questions on this topic. Why is it that raiders have to deface regional pages with victory messages and RMB suppression and gloating every time they enter a region? It seems to be one of the major (unsurprisingly) issues with the practice of R/D and its spillover into other areas of gameplay, and it just doesn't seem as though there's a good (or readily understood, at the very least) explanation for this very visible facet of R/D gameplay.

[Bone Fort]

Ok, why is it necessary to have delegate controls active for an RP region? It's a place to stock your nations, to coordinate with other players, etc. I'm gathering that some of you RP on the RMB - like I said, I don't see this as ideal, given how you have to scroll so far back to see much, whereas a thread offers a much more viewable option. Personal preferences there, I suppose. But I'm not grasping why you need a delegate for that. It's a purely WA function.

Passwords, not necessary really unless you want to totally control who comes in and out. I suppose if you are spread across time zones and have delegates who split the time with the founder, that's a reason to have one. Still, it's also quite simple to tg the password to any interested players who'd like to join up. In fact, have one password for joining only, and switch it back to the standard, not seen by residents, for when you aren't accepting someone.

Like I said, there are a number of ways to handle it all. Some of us even took forums for things like groups/alliances/etc offsite for enhanced 'secrecy' and the like. There are tons of free forum-creation bits out there. It's no different from switching from RMB view to forum, that way - simply forum to forum instead.

I'm tossing out ideas here, folks. Recall what I said about compromise? GP has been severely compromised (some say rightly so) due to the nature of their game. I don't think its too much to ask that we RPers compromise a bit so that we can carry on as we'd like as well, without creating an entirely new ruleset for a fraction of the playerbase.

People RP on their RMB? I'd beat my players with dead caterpillars if they did that.

There are some RP regions who don't have a founder and so their RD needs to keep administrative control. I think this was a primary concern brought up by a few people.

My own region doesn't need for our RD have power although it makes my life so much easier because it takes the burden off of me. He's a CoOP for our primary game so you can kind of imagine how that transfers over to our region itself.



Nathi, I think a lot of people honestly see it as "We're not allowed to do this but they're allowed to do that!" (I'm neutral on that topic.)

I brought up the example earlier of a group of us RPers going to a non-RP forum and just starting to RP some game. We do it out of the blue, and perhaps on a raider or defender forum, or in someone's factbook, or maybe even during a heated conversation in General?

We couldn't though. We wouldn't. We realize that our unwelcome posts would be off-topic and spammy, and we'd certainly be warned. If we continued to thrust our RP on people, we'd see more than just a friendly warning. If we continued to do it after all that, we'd see a DEAT. If we returned and continued, we'd be DOS. Why? We're only doing what raiders do. We're disrupting someone's thread and forcing them into our game (regardless of them playing along or not.)

The only difference is that we're not allowed by Moderation to disrupt threads in that manner. We need to stay on topic. We can't derail. Etc. Why then must RPers be forced to play R/D? It's just as disruptive but it's allowable by Moderation. The RP region is derailed. It goes completely off topic. Tempers flare because there's flaming and trolling on the RMB. The only difference is that it's a gameside issue rather than a forum issue.

This is one of the most valid points raised this entire thread, and yet there was not one response to it? Please, oh wise raiders, tell me why this is, that you can force your game on us, but we can't lift a finger to you with our game? Something there doesn't quite add up.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Well I'll just start crapping on raiders in my roleplays from now on, if nothing else is going to be done. If invaders like the Black Riders will give no respect to RP regions, then I'm not going to have any trouble dragging random raider nations through the mud in my RPs. They actually serve the role of vague nations I can invade and occupy.

You pull that, and you'll get tapped for it. No one is able to rp other people's nations - regardless of what part of the game they participate in. Don't stoop. It isn't becoming of anyone wanting to make a valid argument for why they ought to be given /any/ consideration whatsoever.

As for some of the rest - seriously, I get it folks. I do. And I'm not saying 'you will never have these things'.

Read back - playing a bit of devil's advocate yes, but steady on there's a lot of suggestions as to how you can protect yourselves using the current ruleset, while being free to pursue changes.

I'm not saying don't ask for it. I've been trying to get folks to ask for change reasonably, rather than bawwing and flaming and other such behaviors. I can't speak for the admins or Max, I'm just a game mod, and not a senior one at that. I have no idea what they may or may not take into consideration. So phrase your suggestions well when you make them. Don't get snarky. Don't get all nasty about other players. Don't threaten, or stoop to bad behavior yourselves. And in the meantime - do what you can to lock things up. Find solutions that work for you with the tools you've been given. Report things that aren't kosher.

Swith Witherward - you've got some excellent points. And I wish I had all the answers. I know it doesn't feel right, I know it doesn't feel fair. I've been attempting to offer a bigger picture view so it's more understood why things are the way they are currently, and some of what's lead up to the changes that have already been implemented. The arguments at the time were that they ought to be enough. For myself, and perhaps others, they have been. What arguments I'm seeing that they can't be used, haven't been terribly strong, and mostly comprise of 'but we don't want to'.

It is a pain in the ass. And ideally, were I to have my way, those who didn't want to get dragged into the R/D mess, wouldn't be. But that isn't what we have on the table at present. And comparing the forums and their use, to the gameside portion of things and how it works, is again, unfortunately, like comparing apples and oranges. Both game-related, but not at all with the same mechanics and crossover and purpose. So stating 'they can do this, but we can't do that', while understandably frustrating, isn't comparing the same things, much as it feels it ought to be. That's just the way things are running currently.

So to all those who aren't content to settle for how it is - Get involved in the summit, see if there's changes you can help effect. Be as impassioned about it as you like, so long as you keep it clean, and keep the arguments solid.

And in the meantime, ffs, take the necessary steps so you can avoid more issues along the way.

[The North Polish Union]

It's this:

Which is why what I and many others are talking about isn't a tagging for RP regions. It's making the protection granted to regions with Founders are more permanent than the lifespan of an individual nation (see: the recurring suggestion of transferable Foundership). It's just an expansion of existing tools. If you oppose *that*, you're just being butt-hurt about not being able to fuck up the handiwork of whoever you want.

And what would the advantages of this be? All I can see is that it would make Gameplay as a whole (and not just the R/D game) boring and static, as there would be little to no risk in foreign affairs. Gameplayers (be they raiders, defenders, or neither) have a right to be able to play the game just as roleplayers have a right to play their game in its style. If you're calling for the elimination of an important aspect of the game just because you failed to take the requisite security measures and therefore can't have the WFE be just the way you all want it, then you're being the butthurt one.

And raiding is not about going around "fucking up the handiwork of whoever [we] want." It's centered around the same general ideas that RP is centered around. The desire to grow an empire and "win" (be it a region or an RP war).

Failure to take the requisite security measures in an RP war can result in your nation suddenly and unexpectedly being conquered by a more powerful opponent. In the same way, failure to take adequate security measures for your in-game region can result in it being conquered. Unless your a remarkably poor sport, you don't go pitching a hissy fit because you lost an RP war because you didn't protect yourself, so why is it any different when you fail to take adequate security measures for your region.

As a side note, I'm a member of an RP region which has been founderless since early August of this year. Their WAD currently has 5 or 6 endorsements, for a while it was only 3. They have not yet been raided. There is no reason to add features to NS that could potentially kill an aspect if the game that has existed since NS was created to protect against something that could be protected against by simply having three people scroll down to the bottom of a nation page and click a button that says "Endorse [nation name]".

[The North Polish Union]

People RP on their RMB? I'd beat my players with dead caterpillars if they did that.

There are some RP regions who don't have a founder and so their RD needs to keep administrative control. I think this was a primary concern brought up by a few people.

My own region doesn't need for our RD have power although it makes my life so much easier because it takes the burden off of me. He's a CoOP for our primary game so you can kind of imagine how that transfers over to our region itself.



Nathi, I think a lot of people honestly see it as "We're not allowed to do this but they're allowed to do that!" (I'm neutral on that topic.)

I brought up the example earlier of a group of us RPers going to a non-RP forum and just starting to RP some game. We do it out of the blue, and perhaps on a raider or defender forum, or in someone's factbook, or maybe even during a heated conversation in General?

We couldn't though. We wouldn't. We realize that our unwelcome posts would be off-topic and spammy, and we'd certainly be warned. If we continued to thrust our RP on people, we'd see more than just a friendly warning. If we continued to do it after all that, we'd see a DEAT. If we returned and continued, we'd be DOS. Why? We're only doing what raiders do. We're disrupting someone's thread and forcing them into our game (regardless of them playing along or not.)

The only difference is that we're not allowed by Moderation to disrupt threads in that manner. We need to stay on topic. We can't derail. Etc. Why then must RPers be forced to play R/D? It's just as disruptive but it's allowable by Moderation. The RP region is derailed. It goes completely off topic. Tempers flare because there's flaming and trolling on the RMB. The only difference is that it's a gameside issue rather than a forum issue.

This is one of the most valid points raised this entire thread, and yet there was not one response to it? Please, oh wise raiders, tell me why this is, that you can force your game on us, but we can't lift a finger to you with our game? Something there doesn't quite add up.

We can't force you to play our game. You don't even have to recognize that raider delegates exist. You could even have offsite forums (gasp!) where you store all necessary RP information which the raiders couldn't touch. Them you'd be able to RP freely (although no one was stopping you from doing that before) and not worry about R/D. Alternatively, you could have two or three endos on your WAD and be safe from the Black Riders forever.

[Kassaran]

We can't force you to play our game. You don't even have to recognize that raider delegates exist. You could even have offsite forums (gasp!) where you store all necessary RP information which the raiders couldn't touch. Them you'd be able to RP freely (although no one was stopping you from doing that before) and not worry about R/D. Alternatively, you could have two or three endos on your WAD and be safe from the Black Riders forever.

First of all, yeah, you can, by removing the stuff on our RMB's, the Admin Boards, and other such Region-based affairs, raiders are also notorious for ejecting people from regions they were in in the first place, so thus we'd have to recognize you existed. The idea of offsite forums is only needed because we fear being raided. It's not fun for the victims, its only fun for the raiders, which honestly feels like trolling to me, because if the RPers need to live in fear of being raided and losing progress on their regions, then they have to acknowledge the threat of being raided. Thus this defeats your whole "ignore it guys, we'll only be molesting you silently if so" argument.

Also, if we have to store it on another website, whats the use of being here in the first place? If the RPers should keep their stuff on other sites, do you not think they'd rather move to those sites where they can remain safe? It's not conducive to efficient role-play to have everything spread out across the internet. So even if we did keep our stuff on other sites, would we even be doing so freely because that's where we were forced to store our stuff since the regions are R/D's domain? Of course not! We would've been forced to move and that isn't what we want to do. Call us lazy, but we'd much rather keep everything centralized without fear of ti being erased.

As for the Alternative, what's an Endo?

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

There's a fair question that's been asked several times:

Why do raiders feel they have to deface everything on waltzing in and taking over where they aren't wanted? For that matter, where's the challenge in going after unprepared regions? It does often come off as a situation of some jock walking along the beach bragging about how many others he managed to kick sand into the faces of.

It's not my thing, I don't get the appeal, simply understand many of the rules that govern it. Might be nice to have some insight, especially considering some of the comments along the lines of 'the RPers are griping, lets get 'em' that have been made. Smacks of griefing and such right there, no?

[The Republic of Lanos]

There's a fair question that's been asked several times:

Why do raiders feel they have to deface everything on waltzing in and taking over where they aren't wanted? For that matter, where's the challenge in going after unprepared regions? It does often come off as a situation of some jock walking along the beach bragging about how many others he managed to kick sand into the faces of.

It's not my thing, I don't get the appeal, simply understand many of the rules that govern it. Might be nice to have some insight, especially considering some of the comments along the lines of 'the RPers are griping, lets get 'em' that have been made. Smacks of griefing and such right there, no?

Probably because they can do it and the rules protect them. Beyond that, it's how they get their kicks I suspect.

[The North Polish Union]

We can't force you to play our game. You don't even have to recognize that raider delegates exist. You could even have offsite forums (gasp!) where you store all necessary RP information which the raiders couldn't touch. Them you'd be able to RP freely (although no one was stopping you from doing that before) and not worry about R/D. Alternatively, you could have two or three endos on your WAD and be safe from the Black Riders forever.

First of all, yeah, you can, by removing the stuff on our RMB's, the Admin Boards, and other such Region-based affairs, raiders are also notorious for ejecting people from regions they were in in the first place, so thus we'd have to recognize you existed. The idea of offsite forums is only needed because we fear being raided. It's not fun for the victims, its only fun for the raiders, which honestly feels like trolling to me, because if the RPers need to live in fear of being raided and losing progress on their regions, then they have to acknowledge the threat of being raided. Thus this defeats your whole "ignore it guys, we'll only be molesting you silently if so" argument.

Also, if we have to store it on another website, whats the use of being here in the first place? If the RPers should keep their stuff on other sites, do you not think they'd rather move to those sites where they can remain safe? It's not conducive to efficient role-play to have everything spread out across the internet. So even if we did keep our stuff on other sites, would we even be doing so freely because that's where we were forced to store our stuff since the regions are R/D's domain? Of course not! We would've been forced to move and that isn't what we want to do. Call us lazy, but we'd much rather keep everything centralized without fear of ti being erased.

As for the Alternative, what's an Endo?

An endo is short for an endorsement.

I can see why you wouldn't want to have NS-based RP information on an offsite forum. But it is still probably the most secure way to store information. WFE's can be changed (even were an exemption to be put in place, WFE's could still be changed), and nation's factbooks can be lost if the nation CTE's (or in the depths of F&NI). RMB posts are a pain to dig up. To me, or makes the most sense to store such information offsite, regardless of whether your region is at risk or not). As for living in constant fear, in the RP region im a member of (see my post directly above the one you quoted) the entire fear of raiding expressed by the region was one guy saying "Oh sh*t were founderless now, we could get raided." Since then, they have gone almost 5 months with no founder and no raids. With only 3 endorsements on their WAD. It's really not as horrible a threat as people in this thread are making it out to be.

[Kassaran]

With only 3 endorsements on their WAD. It's really not as horrible a threat as people in this thread are making it out to be.

Our WAD had two I believe, but it didn't matter, the raiders literally just brought in the forces needed to take the Region. Also, my point is that Raiders simply don't have a justified reason for raiding RP regions. They really don't other than to grief and troll. Until someone can show me what they do beneficial towards the game, my opinion will hold that they simply shouldn't be Raiding RP regions.