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Regional 'opt-out' for R/D? [Gameplay/Proposal]

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Crystal Spires
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Postby Crystal Spires » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:00 pm

SFBA wabbitslayah wrote:I'm not a raider. I'm a defender.


To me? You are no different. Your game against raiders spill upon our regions and impugn on our games.

You could easily play your game with the Raiders without having to involve us, third parties who are not interested in your game, you know.
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Inyourfaceistan
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Postby Inyourfaceistan » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:03 pm

Kassaran wrote:You might not be a raider, but I never said anything about them being newbie nicompoops,


No, you just implied that new players apparently need some elite RP region to learn how to RP properly and that they are incapable of figuring it out themselves...

...that need to remain open to recruiting to train up new RPers. You guys are practically spawn-camping and killing new nations...


How would it be "killing new nations" if it were implying most people were capable of learning on their own?

Also, creating a new RP region DOESN'T get rid of the fact that Raiders still are going to work to raid RP regions with active or non-active founders.


If you have an active founder you can kick them out, if you have a WA delegate controls turned off then all they can do is symbolically cast votes on issues and possibly spam your RMB for "lulz", and then absolutely nothing is accomplished...

We don't want it, now unless you wish to RP that lightsaber-fight


It was a reference to Star Wars Ep3 when Anakin goes off the deep-end and turns into Vader, at which some point he says to Obi-wan "you're either with me, or you're against me".
I was basically comparing your logic to vader's logic...

and rather facing off against the problems at hand.


What freaking problems at hand? This whole thing is a big whiny non-issue just because a few RP regions randomly got hit, one of which kind of had it coming in my opinion, and now everyone is just afraid that they are going to get inconvenienced because a few raiders want to "lulz" them...
Last edited by Inyourfaceistan on Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Evil Wolf
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Postby Evil Wolf » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:04 pm

The Fanboyists wrote:
Evil Wolf wrote:
I'd like to point out that Ainin resides currently in Esquarium, a region which, since it's founder has elected to enable Delegate Controls, has a Delegate that has 22 endorsements. This would make them very much immune from most raids, since I know of no raider group that would sink 24 players into raiding a founder region at update.

I'm just merely pointing out that many RPers in this thread that complain about Raiding and how destructive it is to the RP Community do so from behind some very well protected regions that either can't be raided, because of game mechanics, or have made themselves such an unappetizing target, no raider in their right mind would even bother.

Yes, because we're prime among those who don't want to put up with R/D, and think that other RP'ers shouldn't have to, either.


Good, and you've proven that RPers can protect their regions very effectively even if they don't specifically "opt-out" by turning the Delegate Controls off. Anyone who claims otherwise need only look at Esquarium to see the error in their logic.
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Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
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SFBA wabbitslayah
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Postby SFBA wabbitslayah » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:05 pm

Crystal Spires wrote:
SFBA wabbitslayah wrote:I'm not a raider. I'm a defender.


To me? You are no different. Your game against raiders spill upon our regions and impugn on our games.

You could easily play your game with the Raiders without having to involve us, third parties who are not interested in your game, you know.


I don't actively defend anymore, I'm a delegate of a region that was trashed by raiders in the past.
Last edited by Cormac A Stark on Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Constaniana
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Postby Constaniana » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:11 pm

Evil Wolf wrote:
The Fanboyists wrote:Yes, because we're prime among those who don't want to put up with R/D, and think that other RP'ers shouldn't have to, either.


Good, and you've proven that RPers can protect their regions very effectively even if they don't specifically "opt-out" by turning the Delegate Controls off. Anyone who claims otherwise need only look at Esquarium to see the error in their logic.

That's nice for big regions. What about us smaller folks? Should we just flee into massive regions to protect ourselves? Not that the raiders would mind, as it would simply mean more empty regions they can roll into and go "huehuehue we raided u lulz" when the only people left are the folks who infrequently get on and didn't know about the move yet, or go in and refound the region and say "huehuehue we conqured and refounded this region. Much raid, so conquest, blk rydrs"
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The Fanboyists
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Postby The Fanboyists » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:14 pm

Evil Wolf wrote:
Crystal Spires wrote:We have had to change it just today with 3 people posing as recruits who were actually raiders, and we have had to actually kill much of our recruiting efforts, we've had to lock our region which would otherwise be open. You've effectively killed our recruiting efforts to Mystria. Thanks for that.


The password, to be honest, is overkill. You don't need it, the Delegate Controls being off protects you completely, even if there were raiders in your region. Don't try to blame me for your region's lack of understanding regarding game mechanics.

Again, Evil Wolf, you're missing the point! We shouldn't have to be putting effort into understanding game mechanics just to RP without getting disrupted by malicious outsiders! And the only thing that pointing out that many of us are in protected regions illustrates is how many of us want out of R/D, but have no other means besides shuttering ourselves off from the rest of NS!

Because you shouldn't have to choose between having an extra admin but shuttering yourself off from everyone else versus not having the extra admin and being reliant on an unelected, non-transferable position in order to maintain some kind of openness.

Actually, fuck it. I'm done explaining, because really, the why's and minutia shouldn't even matter. What matters is that raiders force us to compromise our game experience just to gain protection from them compromising our experience, instead. We shouldn't have to suffocate our regions or inconvenience our administration just to avoid what amounts in many cases to sanctioned griefing. As has been mentioned numerous times before R/D'ers don't have to participate in RP, so while for practical reasons we can't entirely separate from GP, we shouldn't have to tip-toe around to avoid having our communities vandalized and disrupted. We shouldn't be forced to isolate and obstruct ourselves just to keep Raiders from coming in and doing that worse. Raiders certainly don't have to detract from their own experience to avoid Roleplay. And that should be more than enough reason for everyone on why less-suffocating/internally disruptive protective tools are necessary. Arguing against that is just greed and/or laziness on the Raiders' part.
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Evil Wolf
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Postby Evil Wolf » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:16 pm

Constaniana wrote:That's nice for big regions. What about us smaller folks? Should we just flee into massive regions to protect ourselves? Not that the raiders would mind, as it would simply mean more empty regions they can roll into and go "huehuehue we raided u lulz" when the only people left are the folks who infrequently get on and didn't know about the move yet, or go in and refound the region and say "huehuehue we conqured and refounded this region. Much raid, so conquest, blk rydrs"


Constaniana's region, Orias (15 nations, WA delegate, 2 endorsements, Delegate Controls off as of 10 minutes ago), proves that the smaller regions, if overly concerned, can still opt-out by turning off the Delegate Controls, thus disproving Constaniana's own claim that small regions can't protect themselves.
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Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
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[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.

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The Fanboyists
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Postby The Fanboyists » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:19 pm

Evil Wolf wrote:
The Fanboyists wrote:Yes, because we're prime among those who don't want to put up with R/D, and think that other RP'ers shouldn't have to, either.


Good, and you've proven that RPers can protect their regions very effectively even if they don't specifically "opt-out" by turning the Delegate Controls off. Anyone who claims otherwise need only look at Esquarium to see the error in their logic.

Good, and you're continuing to ignore the repeated statements that the measures necessary to properly protect those regions hinders our ability to enjoy our experience fully. You're acting like having to inconvenience yourself to prevent greater inconvenience brought in by destructive outsiders who can do all of that consequence free is in any way an acceptable status quo!

Yes, we can protect ourselves, but it's only if we either sacrifice guaranteed smooth operation of our region or we sacrifice being an open community. And that's the problem. It's not that there are no means to protect ourselves, it's that protecting ourselves forces us to be paranoid assholes to avoid something we had no desire to be involved in in the first place!
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Postby Grenartia » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:23 pm

Evil Wolf wrote:
The Fanboyists wrote:Yes, because we're prime among those who don't want to put up with R/D, and think that other RP'ers shouldn't have to, either.


Good, and you've proven that RPers can protect their regions very effectively even if they don't specifically "opt-out" by turning the Delegate Controls off. Anyone who claims otherwise need only look at Esquarium to see the error in their logic.


Point is, we shouldn't fucking have to, and it hinders our goals.
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Evil Wolf
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Postby Evil Wolf » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:24 pm

What goals, exactly?
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Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.

Mallorea and Riva should be a Game Moderator Game Administrator.

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The Fanboyists
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Postby The Fanboyists » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:25 pm

Evil Wolf wrote:What goals, exactly?

To enjoy our subgame to the same extent as everyone else gets to do with theirs.
Last edited by The Fanboyists on Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Evil Wolf
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Postby Evil Wolf » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:28 pm

The Fanboyists wrote:
Evil Wolf wrote:What goals, exactly?

To enjoy the game to the same extent as everyone else.


So turning off the Delegate Controls hinders your ability to enjoy the game? Interesting. I've never heard any other group of players claim that other than a few RPers in this thread.
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Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.

Mallorea and Riva should be a Game Moderator Game Administrator.

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Ambroscus Koth
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Postby Ambroscus Koth » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:30 pm

You can't get rid of R/D without also getting rid of free movement between regions, which would also affect the recruitment ability for roleplayers.
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Postby The Fanboyists » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:31 pm

Evil Wolf wrote:
The Fanboyists wrote:To enjoy the game to the same extent as everyone else.


So turning off the Delegate Controls hinders your ability to enjoy the game? Interesting. I've never heard any other group of players claim that other than a few RPers in this thread.

It hinders our ability to run our regions smoothly. If you hadn't flat out ignored my post above, or, indeed, almost literally every other post on the subject in the last 50+ pages of posts, I wouldn't have had to repeat that again.
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Ambroscus Koth
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Postby Ambroscus Koth » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:33 pm

The Fanboyists wrote: If you hadn't flat out ignored my post above, or, indeed, almost literally every other post on the subject in the last 50+ pages of posts, I wouldn't have had to repeat that again.


This seems to be a problem both sides of the debate are facing.
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Postby The Fanboyists » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:34 pm

Ambroscus Koth wrote:
The Fanboyists wrote: If you hadn't flat out ignored my post above, or, indeed, almost literally every other post on the subject in the last 50+ pages of posts, I wouldn't have had to repeat that again.


This seems to be a problem both sides of the debate are facing.

Really? Because I'd say it's only a problem from one side.
Last edited by The Fanboyists on Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Constaniana » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:35 pm

Ambroscus Koth wrote:You can't get rid of R/D without also getting rid of free movement between regions, which would also affect the recruitment ability for roleplayers.

We're not advocating for the destruction of R/D (Well, most of us anyway). We're simply trying to figure out how to prevent our work from being negatively impacted by being dragged into your subgame against our will.
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Postby The Fanboyists » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:36 pm

Ambroscus Koth wrote:You can't get rid of R/D without also getting rid of free movement between regions, which would also affect the recruitment ability for roleplayers.

With a few exceptions, most RP'ers aren't suggesting we get rid of R/D. We want the existing protections to be made more durable and users-friendly than they currently are so that we're not taking as much away from our subgame just to avoid getting dragged into yours.
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Ambroscus Koth
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Postby Ambroscus Koth » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:38 pm

You're right. I've just been...."debating"...with a certain handful of people who actually ARE advocating the complete destruction of R/D. Bit used to that.

People flat out ignoring parts of the opposing argument and repeating themselves is in fact a problem that both sides have faced. We wouldn't have over 50 pages of this otherwise.
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Postby The Fanboyists » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:41 pm

Ambroscus Koth wrote:You're right. I've just been...."debating"...with a certain handful of people who actually ARE advocating the complete destruction of R/D. Bit used to that.

People flat out ignoring parts of the opposing argument and repeating themselves is in fact a problem that both sides have faced. We wouldn't have over 50 pages of this otherwise.

It happens. Most of us are well aware that any blanket opt-out would do exactly that, and isn't workable for that exact reason. Hence the alternative, which seems to be getting met with an undue amount of resistance.

While true, I do feel that it is worth noting that we got a few more R/D'ers who came in rehashing those same arguments three or four pages after OP had succinctly summarized the RP'ers arguments and even moved those into the OP so as to reduce that problem.

In any case, I'm going to bed, so I won't be responding to posts for the rest of the night, so I'm not just ignoring you if you address something at me. I'll try and get back to you in the morning.

Edit: Added last statement.
Last edited by The Fanboyists on Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Evil Wolf » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:41 pm

The Fanboyists wrote:
Evil Wolf wrote:
So turning off the Delegate Controls hinders your ability to enjoy the game? Interesting. I've never heard any other group of players claim that other than a few RPers in this thread.

It hinders our ability to run our regions smoothly.


Oh, so it hinders your ability to enjoy the game, or it hinders your ability to run your region smoothly? Which one is it exactly?

Going back to the question I asked before, what are your goals? To enjoy the game, or to run your region smoothly? Keep in mind the two are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

Ambroscus Koth wrote:You're right. I've just been...."debating"...with a certain handful of people who actually ARE advocating the complete destruction of R/D. Bit used to that.


A thousand times this. Personally, I was with Esternial about 30 pages ago when he said Regional Officers and Founders pretty much fixes everything RPers were concerned about in the original post.
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Postby Cerillium » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:01 am

Evil Wolf wrote:
A thousand times this. Personally, I was with Esternial about 30 pages ago when he said Regional Officers and Founders pretty much fixes everything RPers were concerned about in the original post.

Exactly.
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Postby Anemos Major » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:05 am

Evil Wolf wrote:
The Fanboyists wrote:To enjoy the game to the same extent as everyone else.


So turning off the Delegate Controls hinders your ability to enjoy the game? Interesting. I've never heard any other group of players claim that other than a few RPers in this thread.


The option to turn off delegate controls has always been there. I'd suggest you go around the RPing regions in their multitudes and see how many of them have actually done it.

In the absence of founder succession or regional officers, both of which we're advocating strongly, delegates play a vital administrative role in longer established RPing regions - or otherwise regions with inactive founders, of which I'm fairly sure GD was hardly the only one. I could have picked off a few select quotes from the first page that made the exact same points, and probably rather a lot more that I've missed - so you're either deciding to ignore what we're saying outright, or trying to tell us that we don't understand what RPing entails and what exactly it is that an RPing region requires.

Ambroscus Koth wrote:You're right. I've just been...."debating"...with a certain handful of people who actually ARE advocating the complete destruction of R/D. Bit used to that.

People flat out ignoring parts of the opposing argument and repeating themselves is in fact a problem that both sides have faced. We wouldn't have over 50 pages of this otherwise.


Just as I've been interacting, rather unfortunately, with a large number of players opposite who're rather ardent about this idea that the problem all these RPers are actively trying to explain and resolve on this thread has to do with their own inability to soak up abuse and annoyances and the fact that they don't really, apparently, understand what RPing is all about and what their regions mean to them.

We have fifty pages of this because RPers are convinced that there's enough of a problem at hand to put in fifty pages' worth of contributions. Most of us aren't advocating the destruction of R/D by a long shot, and what we ultimately need is a solution that allows for co-existence and an acceptable status quo for both sides - I have yet to hear anything from the other side short of 'you don't have a problem' or 'you are the problem'.

Inyourfaceistan wrote:
Kassaran wrote:You might not be a raider, but I never said anything about them being newbie nicompoops,


No, you just implied that new players apparently need some elite RP region to learn how to RP properly and that they are incapable of figuring it out themselves...


Is the idea that newer players look for guidance that controversial? Or were you born from the womb with the innate knowledge that would make you a proficient and competent R/Der some years down the line?

I can't speak for others, though I can certainly take an educated guess, but I can say that I used to be a newbie myself, some years ago. And in looking for guidance in RPing of my own volition, Greater Dienstad was the region I was directed to, and it was in that open region that I both learned the ropes but also bumped into many of the RPers with whom I share the forums today. Say what you will. It helped me then, and until the other day there was a steady stream of newer players coming to Dienstad to join the burgeoning community of old and new they had there; yes, Greater Dienstad in its password-less form was an invaluable starting point for newer players for years and years, and with its adoption of a password the other day that age has effectively ended.

RPing is difficult. It's a matter of not only understanding how people interact on the forums and how things ebb and flow, but also of finding your niche and your particular style of writing, of figuring out your nation's background, of coming to terms with technique, terminology and all the things that make joining a new internet community of this kind difficult. And for many of them, for many of us, a region like Greater Dienstad with its wealth of long established and ever-helpful players from a wide variety of backgrounds and its open door policy was the sort of oasis that was seldom found elsewhere, a tight-knit and friendly community always ready to accept and nurture outsiders as their own. For you to gaze upon that, far removed from the notion of RPing in itself, and to tell us that the notion is a ridiculous one... well, it just seems a little crass and a rather uninformed.

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Postby Grenartia » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:08 am

The Fanboyists wrote:
Ambroscus Koth wrote:You can't get rid of R/D without also getting rid of free movement between regions, which would also affect the recruitment ability for roleplayers.

With a few exceptions, most RP'ers aren't suggesting we get rid of R/D. We want the existing protections to be made more durable and users-friendly than they currently are so that we're not taking as much away from our subgame just to avoid getting dragged into yours.


And the only reason I've taken such a hard line against R/D is to show that we can be MUCH, MUCH more demanding and wishing to intentionally destroy R/D if we actually wanted to, that our current positions ARE compromise attempts, and to highlight deficiencies in the statements of R/Ders by using those same deficiencies in hard line statements against R/D, just as they're using them in hardline statements against RP.

Evil Wolf wrote:
The Fanboyists wrote:It hinders our ability to run our regions smoothly.


1. Oh, so it hinders your ability to enjoy the game, or it hinders your ability to run your region smoothly? Which one is it exactly?

2. Going back to the question I asked before, what are your goals? To enjoy the game, or to run your region smoothly? Keep in mind the two are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

Ambroscus Koth wrote:You're right. I've just been...."debating"...with a certain handful of people who actually ARE advocating the complete destruction of R/D. Bit used to that.


3. A thousand times this. Personally, I was with Esternial about 30 pages ago when he said Regional Officers and Founders pretty much fixes everything RPers were concerned about in the original post.


1. Implying it can't be both.

2. Running the region smoothly allows us to better run our RPs on the forum.

3. And what about my solution of a separate aspect (I guess close to the Associations thing Uni brought up earlier) of the game that gives RP all the functions we like in regions, but immune to R/D, while allowing us to join regions and participate in R/D if we so choose?
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Postby The Fanboyists » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:39 am

Evil Wolf wrote:
The Fanboyists wrote:It hinders our ability to run our regions smoothly.


Oh, so it hinders your ability to enjoy the game, or it hinders your ability to run your region smoothly? Which one is it exactly?

Going back to the question I asked before, what are your goals? To enjoy the game, or to run your region smoothly? Keep in mind the two are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

So it can't be both even though one contributes to the other? That's some pretty flawed logic. Because not being able to run things as effectively as we'd like means we have to put more effort into making things work as we'd like which, again, takes away from the aspect of the game that we enjoy. Have I sketched it out clearly enough for you?

Ambroscus Koth wrote:You're right. I've just been...."debating"...with a certain handful of people who actually ARE advocating the complete destruction of R/D. Bit used to that.


A thousand times this. Personally, I was with Esternial about 30 pages ago when he said Regional Officers and Founders pretty much fixes everything RPers were concerned about in the original post.

And as far as I can tell, most RP'ers agree with you, which is why we keep getting so annoyed when another batch of Raiders comes in and repeats the same "you have the tools" bullshit we've been addressing for fifty pages, because they keep acting like we still think a blanket opt-out would work (and mind you, the only objection is one of practicality. In principle, there's not a damn thing wrong with an opt-out) and are crying "destroying R/D!" at us.

I'm reasonably sure if all new entrants to this thread just read the OP top-to-bottom, they should either already know that stuff's been addressed ad nauseum, or, if they come in and spout it anyway, get ignored. We're sick of having to essentially defend our right to play as we want (a right Raiders don't have to worry about protecting) to a part of NationStates to whom the status quo is already disproportionately stacked in favor of.
Last edited by The Fanboyists on Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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