Regional 'opt-out' for R/D? [Gameplay/Proposal]

[Evil Wolf]

You can opt out of RPing, you cannot opt out of R/D.

I think that- Oh wait...my Regional Controls are trying to tell me something. What is it, Regional Control? What is it boy? Is Timmy stuck down a well, because I'm not fishing his ass out again. No, what's that you say? It isn't that? Oh, you seem to be pointing towards something on you that says "Border Control", and what's this below Boarder Control? Oh, well it appears to be a box, a box that says "WA Delegate can access Regional Control." It looks like that box is unchecked.

What's that Regional Control? You told me to uncheck that button when I became the Second Founder of LWU and it's kept the region safe from all attack ever since then? Gee, Regional Control, you're the best friend a player could have!

EDIT: Minor? Do you really call destroying all that work 'minor'? As occasional as it may be, screw R/D, nobody else is actually causing others problems.

Point to me the last active RP region that was destroyed. Not "had their WFE messed up", I mean actually destroyed.

[Chrinthanium]

Quite frankly, I equate raiding to stealing because it is taking something that isn't yours by force for your own enjoyment. The raiders did not build that region, the raiders did not invest the time and effort into creating those forums, the raiders did not create the WFE or the regional flag, but now they have complete control over them and change them to shove it in the face of those from whom they've stolen the very region they called home. I, for one, do not call that fun, nor do I call that a game of any sort.

I like to call it Nationstates.net.

I like to call it stealing because that what it is.

And the absolute worst idea ever invented by NationStates players would be utterly destroyed? Then, by all means, I am FOR this proposal.

You do realize that RP was invented by players too, if you want to get really snippy, and isn't hard coded into the game either. Raiding has just as much right to exist as RP does. Don't like it? Find another game, because we're not going to destroy the R/D sub-game in order avoid the minor and very occasional inconvenience it causes in yours.

We're tired of being trampled by raiders. We have every right to be here as you do and to have our regions left untouched by unwelcome intrusions like an invasion. We're not going to leave just because you think that those of us of an opinion contrary to yours are wrong.

[Evil Wolf]

I like to call it Nationstates.net.

I like to call it stealing because that what it is.

What? Nationstates is not theft!

We're tired of being trampled by raiders. We have every right to be here as you do and to have our regions left untouched by unwelcome intrusions like an invasion. We're not going to leave just because you think that those of us of an opinion contrary to yours are wrong.

This 'we" you speak of does not include you, Chrinthanium. You reside in The Beach, a region of over 200 nations that has a Founder and it's delegate controls off. When Chrinthanium says "we", he do not speak of himself, for he has already made the smart and sensible decision to opt-out of R/D. He speaks of regions he has never seen and players he has never met or even spoken to on the forums and massive attacks against the RP community that never happened.

Chrinthanium, you already have the right to have your region "untouched by unwelcome intrusions like an invasion", and you have already taken it. I find it endlessly amusing tha the RPers in here who advocate exterminating the R/D game and suggest that it's harming RP do so from regions that can not be raided and are perfectly protected.

[Bears Armed]

You can opt out of RPing, you cannot opt out of R/D.

I think that- Oh wait...my Regional Controls are trying to tell me something. What is it, Regional Control? What is it boy? Is Timmy stuck down a well, because I'm not fishing his ass out again. No, what's that you say? It isn't that? Oh, you seem to be pointing towards something on you that says "Border Control", and what's this below Boarder Control? Oh, well it appears to be a box, a box that says "WA Delegate can access Regional Control." It looks like that box is unchecked.

What's that Regional Control? You told me to uncheck that button when I became the Second Founder of LWU and it's kept the region safe from all attack ever since then?

A "solution" that, as you know full well, only works while the region's Founder still exists... and that is therefore no help at all for the 'founderless' regions who, for obvious reasons, seem to suffer the majority of your attacks.

[Delmonte]

I think that- Oh wait...my Regional Controls are trying to tell me something. What is it, Regional Control? What is it boy? Is Timmy stuck down a well, because I'm not fishing his ass out again. No, what's that you say? It isn't that? Oh, you seem to be pointing towards something on you that says "Border Control", and what's this below Boarder Control? Oh, well it appears to be a box, a box that says "WA Delegate can access Regional Control." It looks like that box is unchecked.

What's that Regional Control? You told me to uncheck that button when I became the Second Founder of LWU and it's kept the region safe from all attack ever since then?

A "solution" that, as you know full well, only works while the region's Founder still exists... and that is therefore no help at all for the 'founderless' regions who, for obvious reasons, seem to suffer the majority of your attacks.

Founderless roleplaying regions have a method of protection that requires nothing of them. They can seek protection under the Concordat. We already have one such region under our protection and they are enthusiastic with being able to go unpassworded and be completely safe.

[Evil Wolf]

A "solution" that, as you know full well, only works while the region's Founder still exists... and that is therefore no help at all for the 'founderless' regions who, for obvious reasons, seem to suffer the majority of your attacks.

The complaint that RPers have presented here in this thread is that there is no way to "opt-out". When presented with the opt-out (having a founder and delegate controls off), Bears Armed chooses to talk about founderless regions. You're completely correct, Bears Armed, founderless regions have no way of opting-out of R/D, but the players within them do. In the end, RPers still have their safe haven free of Raiders and Defenders. Is the system prefect? No, but then again what system is?

Also, as I've said before, who the hell RPs in a founderless region? It's inviting disaster upon yourself unless you have some sort of Concordat protecting you. Even if you really, really love that founderless region, you don't have to leave it, but to RP there just seems ridiculous to me when you have much safer and secure alternatives.

[Chrinthanium]

This 'we" you speak of does not include you, Chrinthanium. You reside in The Beach, a region of over 200 nations that has a Founder and it's delegate controls off. When Chrinthanium says "we", he do not speak of himself, for he has already made the smart and sensible decision to opt-out of R/D. He speaks of regions he has never seen and players he has never met or even spoken to on the forums and massive attacks against the RP community that never happened.

Chrinthanium, you already have the right to have your region "untouched by unwelcome intrusions like an invasion", and you have already taken it. I find it endlessly amusing tha the RPers in here who advocate exterminating the R/D game and suggest that it's harming RP do so from regions that can not be raided and are perfectly protected.

Of course, like yourself, I've been around NS for a while and when I say we, I very much mean we as in including me. The Beach hasn't always been around.

In your opinion, all regions that want to avoid invasion should switch off delegate access. Of course, that puts the entire running of the region in the founders hands, doesn't it. And if the Founder should be away and administration is needed, then there is no one around to do it. Or, heaven forbid, the Founder CTE, then regional controls automatically revert to the WA Delegate and then a region that had opted out in your opinion is suddenly and unwillingly thrust back into opted-in status thus bringing us back to square one which is a region that wants to be left alone is suddenly available for your alleged fun.

[Chrinthanium]

A "solution" that, as you know full well, only works while the region's Founder still exists... and that is therefore no help at all for the 'founderless' regions who, for obvious reasons, seem to suffer the majority of your attacks.

The complaint that RPers have presented here in this thread is that there is no way to "opt-out". When presented with the opt-out (having a founder and delegate controls off), Bears Armed chooses to talk about founderless regions. You're completely correct, Bears Armed, founderless regions have no way of opting-out of R/D, but the players within them do. In the end, RPers still have their safe haven free of Raiders and Defenders. Is the system prefect? No, but then again what system is?

Also, as I've said before, who the hell RPs in a founderless region? It's inviting disaster upon yourself unless you have some sort of Concordat protecting you. Even if you really, really love that founderless region, you don't have to leave it, but to RP there just seems ridiculous to me when you have much safer and secure alternatives.

Because they RP in a Founderless region, they are putting themselves at risk? Your reasoning is becoming ridiculous. The more you speak on raiding, the more you confirm that raiding is stealing. "They left it there for me to take, so I took it."

[Evil Wolf]

And if the Founder should be away and administration is needed, then there is no one around to do it.

An your solution to this minor technical problem, one that the Regional Officers update shall fix, is to destroy Military Gameplay entirely.

Once again, the entire purpose of this thread is that some RPers felt that there was no way to Opt-Out of being raided. If you're arguing that Founders should never CTE and all regions should never be raided because that's bad and stuff, go make another thread.

Because they RP in a Founderless region, they are putting themselves at risk? Your reasoning is becoming ridiculous. The more you speak on raiding, the more you confirm that raiding is stealing. "They left it there for me to take, so I took it."

RPers can RP in any region they wish. If they choose to RP in a founderless region, they're probably going to get raided. The solution to this is to not RP in a founderless region. That way, you can't get raided and your RP session will not be interrupted. Any region that's founderless has the potential to be raided. Founderless RP regions are not special in this regard.

[Chrinthanium]

Though, Evil Wolf, I find it hilarious you defend raiding as such an important part of the game when, in your own signature, it states....

In the good old days raiding was illegal and players who formed the Black Hawk would've seen the underside of the mod's iron boot.

1) I'm biased against the raiding game or most raiders. They strike me as bullies, and the raiding game strikes me as legalized bullying.

And, of course this gem from the IRC:

<Nathicana> It was based on 'Look, I can bully someone on the internet.' It's since been legitimized.

You act like R/D was interrupted by RPing when, in fact, the RPers were here first. All you've done is, as stated above, legitimized bullying on NationStates. We're tired of being bullied and we're willing to keep pushing this issue until an agreeable solution can be found.

[JURISDICTIONS]

Evil Wolf is correct, founderless regions are available to raid. Not unlike RL -- where left undefended -- a bank can be robbed of its cash.

The point here is, that its very hard to refound, that RP gets majorly disrupted, that raiders can usurp a founderless region for their own nefarious purposes, and the list of grievances goes on an on.

I think in this case, it is a good solution to have Regional Officers, WA Custodian, and Founder Succession to end the debate.

Regional Officers can become corrupt, and tear down a region, when given the proper tools.

WA Custodians must be appointed by the WASC political process, something that would be very unsavory for many.

Founder Succession, has possibilities for failure to succeed all throughout it. The founder could forget to appoint someone. The founder didn't live for six months and CTE,. The Successor didn't live for six months and CTE's The Successor could be corrupt and tear down the region. If that doesn't seem like enough, then maybe we should have Successors use influence.

All in all, these defenses even out the game. Raiders have had too much success when 90% of all targets are taken.

I'm not proposing the elimination of R/D that is a stupid idea. However, regions who can take reasonable precaution should have a better chance of standing against a raid and should be rewarded for their efforts, while having a region that is open for the player base they serve.

The current system, doesn't allow for much wiggle room. Even RL nations have ways to pass on the power, should the leader resign or become ill. We talk about this being a nation simulation, raiders exist because they are the terrorists of the world. Raiding terrorists organize and are generally untouchable. Regions however, don't have many choices for defense. Defense regimes are small and few. Many regions, see little use in a defense force when the raiding terrorists can trample them anyway without so much as a hiccup in their operations.

The proposed solutions, working together can make the game better. The status quo has proven to be a bad place for everyone, except the raiding terrorists.

[Farfadillis]

Now, I'm gonna ignore Evil Wolf's hilarious (failed) attempt at condescending, backed with no logic. Bears Armed said it all.

However, I guess we could find a solution. I don't know whether it's been proposed or not; there's been fifty-six pages so far, surely it has. If it already exists, then it clearly has not been publicized enough, so in that case just ignore this post and start making it known.

Anyway, what about having a forum thread in which roleplaying regions, or whatever region there is out there (the latter is up for discussion) to sign up and avoid the R/D game. You could make the region pass a test or whatever, I don't care about that all that much. In that way, protecting a region would not be all that easy, it would take knowing NS enough to know about the protection thread. Raiders could still attack those regions, but would face the banhammer or similar, and the region would be restored by moderators. This could be adding unnecessary weight to the mod's work, though.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this idea, but I believe it's as far as I can go when it comes to negotiating. Give your opinion, etc, I'm sure there's more than one flaw in this idea, but I guess it's possible to sort them out.

[Northern Sunrise Islands]

Just to throw my bit in based on something that did happen at Esportiva, a roleplayer region in which the owner decided to replace the nation he used to found it for a new one, where if I remember well, he wanted to rebuild some stuff. So now, he has to log in the original account only to guarantee that raiders don't try to swoop in.

If he decided not to do that every couple of days, the founder would CTE and we would then be depending solely on our Delegate, who could or could not be available at the time. So, now, a bunch of guys that play at the NS Sports section would have to spend time not only dealing with tournaments and stuff, but also to keep an eye out before the Regional Page Message say something like "Hue Hue! This region played the Jobber role to (Insert Raider Region Here)! Now we will kick everyone out and leave a broken culture that will have to try and do something or wait until someone frees the region, giving you no time to do anything else!".

Now, we have a guy that still plays as the founder, but what about the others that don't? How are they going to stabilize their things? Or even better, will they have the power and interest of restarting stuff instead of just quitting the whole game? Having a Regional Opt-Out for those stuff is a good thing for people who really would prefer to keep everything in place instead of having to waste time on restarting their stuff because of some incident.

[Mad Jack]

-snip-

Every couple of days? In vacation mode it's every 60 days.

There's a few options available to you and your founder. I could help a little bit (in a similar role to what I'm doing in Greater Dienstad as Gorani).

[Northern Sunrise Islands]

-snip-

Every couple of days? In vacation mode it's every 60 days.

There's a few options available to you and your founder. I could help a little bit (in a similar role to what I'm doing in Greater Dienstad as Gorani).

Oh, but we solved that already, sir. It's just an example.

[Evil Wolf]

Though, Evil Wolf, I find it hilarious you defend raiding as such an important part of the game when, in your own signature, it states....

In the good old days raiding was illegal and players who formed the Black Hawk would've seen the underside of the mod's iron boot.

1) I'm biased against the raiding game or most raiders. They strike me as bullies, and the raiding game strikes me as legalized bullying.

And, of course this gem from the IRC:

<Nathicana> It was based on 'Look, I can bully someone on the internet.' It's since been legitimized.

You act like R/D was interrupted by RPing when, in fact, the RPers were here first. All you've done is, as stated above, legitimized bullying on NationStates. We're tired of being bullied and we're willing to keep pushing this issue until an agreeable solution can be found.

Actually, I put those quotes in my signature because I find them to be hilarious and inaccurate. I might also add that all three quoted MODS are avid RPers and generally do not come around the realm of Gameplay all that often, although Nathicana does from time to time. Kryozerkia's comment in particular is funny because it's not even vaguely true. Raiding has never been deemed illegal; Kryozerkia, it seems, just didn't know their history enough to know any different.

I strongly disagree with Scolopendra and Nathicana on their repeated claims that raiding is nothing more than "legalized bullying" and have stated as much on IRC. I even debated Nathicana right here in this thread, so I have no interest in discussing that matter further. Raiding has been declared part of the game, so despite one's personal feelings on the matter, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

However, for those of you who feel R/D is nothing more than "legitimized bullying", keep in mind we have communities as well. Endless game hours have been spent, small novels can and have been written on the exploits of both Raider and Defender groups, and we have just as much right to exist as RP does. Even if RP can claim that they posted "first!" on NS before R/D did.

[Farfadillis]

Actually, I put those quotes in my signature because I find them to be hilarious and inaccurate. I might also add that all three quoted MODS are avid RPers and generally do not come around the realm of Gameplay all that often, although Nathicana does from time to time. Kryozerkia's comment in particular is funny because it's not even vaguely true. Raiding has never been deemed illegal; Kryozerkia, it seems, just didn't know their history enough to know any different.

I strongly disagree with Scolopendra and Nathicana on their repeated claims that raiding is nothing more than "legalized bullying" and have stated as much on IRC. I even debated Nathicana right here in this thread, so I have no interest in discussing that matter further. Raiding has been declared part of the game, so despite one's personal feelings on the matter, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

However, for those of you who feel R/D is nothing more than "legitimized bullying", keep in mind we have communities as well. Endless game hours have been spent, small novels can and have been written on the exploits of both Raider and Defender groups, and we have just as much right to exist as RP does. Even if RP can claim that they posted "first!" on NS before R/D did.

'Look people, we have as much of a right to be here as you. We've put a lot of effort into ruining things you've also put a lot of effort into, so it's only natural for you not to oppress us and let us oppress you, because that obviously makes a lot of sense. Really, guys, let us oppress you, we've been putting a lot of effort into this. I am also willing to repeat this non-sense for ages! Nevermind that our cause is downright stupid from just about everyone else's perspective, and it really is just ruining things for the fun of it. I mean, we could find other fulfilling activities in which our efforts would not be of such a destructive and therefore rather dumb level, but going around and invading other people's spaces for no real reason other than fun is clearly the way to go. I'm also willing to say that who was here first doesn't matter as my only truly valid argument. Don't forget I'm willing to break your communities, but I'm against you breaking mine!'

Other than that last hilarious paragraph, I'm 90% sure griefing was once banned. Wouldn't bet on it, though. Oh, as for that part in which you've said you've argued with Nathicana and whatnot, was it really too hard to just give us a summary of your possibly logical reasoning?

[Evil Wolf]

Region Griefing, also known as Region Destruction, under the old Invasion Rules was illegal. Raiding was not. To say Raiding was ever illegal would be a falsehood.

On another note, Farfadillis, I find it ironic that you would destroy one part of the game for the simple convenience of another and then claim your intention is to save communities. R/D is not, by any stretch of the imagination, destroying RP as we know it. The hype simply does not live up to reality.

[Farfadillis]

Region Griefing, also known as Region Destruction, under the old Invasion Rules was illegal. Raiding was not. To say Raiding was ever illegal would be a falsehood.

Alright, let's just say a very big part of raiding was banned, sounds good? Oh, look, Kryozerkia's quote now doesn't fit your description ('not even vaguely true')!

[Crazy girl]

Knock it off. Invading was never illegal, no matter how you twist and turn it.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Though, Evil Wolf, I find it hilarious you defend raiding as such an important part of the game when, in your own signature, it states....





And, of course this gem from the IRC:

<Nathicana> It was based on 'Look, I can bully someone on the internet.' It's since been legitimized.

You act like R/D was interrupted by RPing when, in fact, the RPers were here first. All you've done is, as stated above, legitimized bullying on NationStates. We're tired of being bullied and we're willing to keep pushing this issue until an agreeable solution can be found.

Actually, I put those quotes in my signature because I find them to be hilarious and inaccurate. I might also add that all three quoted MODS are avid RPers and generally do not come around the realm of Gameplay all that often, although Nathicana does from time to time. Kryozerkia's comment in particular is funny because it's not even vaguely true. Raiding has never been deemed illegal; Kryozerkia, it seems, just didn't know their history enough to know any different.

I strongly disagree with Scolopendra and Nathicana on their repeated claims that raiding is nothing more than "legalized bullying" and have stated as much on IRC. I even debated Nathicana right here in this thread, so I have no interest in discussing that matter further. Raiding has been declared part of the game, so despite one's personal feelings on the matter, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

However, for those of you who feel R/D is nothing more than "legitimized bullying", keep in mind we have communities as well. Endless game hours have been spent, small novels can and have been written on the exploits of both Raider and Defender groups, and we have just as much right to exist as RP does. Even if RP can claim that they posted "first!" on NS before R/D did.

But do well to remember not all of us RP'ers feel that way. I have absolutely no issue with R/D.

[Farfadillis]

Knock it off. Invading was never illegal, no matter how you twist and turn it.

No twisting and no turning. Invading was never illegal. I myself admit Kryozerkia's quote was wrong. However, it was not far from the truth, as Evil Wolf said (the Black Hawks indeed would've received the underside of the mod's iron boot under the old ruling, and, as I said, part of invading was actually banned). Sure, not true, but not what Evil Wolf described either. A big part of invading was banned, not all of it. Things are not always either black or white.

But how is raiding's precedent relevant, anyway? The main point against it is that it is highly conflictive with RPers (and others too), people who never asked to step into R/D (like many others) and that have put a lot of effort into their things just to have them disrupted.

And before anyone tries to make a point by saying RPers are now being conflictive by trying to get this opt-out implemented, please consider that makes as much sense as an offender claiming his victim is attacking him/her by filing a lawsuit. You may go as far as considering it attacking, but you really can't argue it's fair.

[Chrinthanium]

My feelings on R/D should be extremely clear at this point, and I agree that some of us do disagree on the issue. Unfortunately, it's not going away no matter how much we argue for its abolishing. I agree that there should be some opt-out option that exempts a region from invasion whether or not the WA Delegate has executive controls. These new potential options seem like they may help fix the problem, but there is a fear in me about people with ulterior motives attempting to hijack regions with the new controls. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they bring. Regardless, it will not change my mind on R/D.

[Mad Jack]

Your opt-out is coming, in the form of regional officers, which is under discussion here

[Esternial]

Your opt-out is coming, in the form of regional officers, which is under discussion here

Didn't we reach that conclusion about 20 pages ago?