A request; new variant of 'New' TG tag

[South Pacific Belschaft]

Erm, so this new feature has had unintended consquences. Namely it is sent to all new nations, and effectively beats all recruitment TG's. The feeders are all now abusing the Welcome TG to act like recruitment tg's, so they get a free, instant (non-delayed) one and it has completely destroyed recruitment rates.

I'm thinking welcome tg's should not be sent to newly created or refounded nations.

That's hardly abuse; it's exactly what we wanted it for. I'm sorry, why exactly should we not be allowed to communicate with newly founded nations inside our own bloody regions?

[Glen-Rhodes]

Erm, so this new feature has had unintended consquences. Namely it is sent to all new nations, and effectively beats all recruitment TG's. The feeders are all now abusing the Welcome TG to act like recruitment tg's, so they get a free, instant (non-delayed) one and it has completely destroyed recruitment rates.

I'm thinking welcome tg's should not be sent to newly created or refounded nations.

That's hardly abuse; it's exactly what we wanted it for. I'm sorry, why exactly should we not be allowed to communicate with newly founded nations inside our own bloody regions?

Eh, I can understand frustration with GCRs sending out welcome TGs that don't emphasize that the player can seek new regions. They don't choose which GCR they go into, so it is practically a free recruitment TG that always gets sent before all other TGs. I can also see why some people might be annoyed with GCRs that also make a strong point to get players to turn off recruitment TGs.

[Afforess]

That's hardly abuse; it's exactly what we wanted it for. I'm sorry, why exactly should we not be allowed to communicate with newly founded nations inside our own bloody regions?

You should have to be in the recruitment tg queue, like the rest of us.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

That's hardly abuse; it's exactly what we wanted it for. I'm sorry, why exactly should we not be allowed to communicate with newly founded nations inside our own bloody regions?

You should have to be in the recruitment tg queue, like the rest of us.

Why, exactly? Ours are the only regions that get bombarded with hundreds of recruitment TG's from the rest of the game, and yet we don't bitch about it. Giving us a chance to pitch ourselves to our new residents before they get recruited away is only fair.

[Afforess]

You should have to be in the recruitment tg queue, like the rest of us.

Why, exactly? Ours are the only regions that get bombarded with hundreds of recruitment TG's from the rest of the game, and yet we don't bitch about it. Giving us a chance to pitch ourselves to our new residents before they get recruited away is only fair.

I don't think you understand the meaning of that word. Fair would be both of our regions having the same opportunity, not giving you a perfect recruitment delivery rate, first message to arrive, and zero cost privileges. MY TELEGRAMS COST ME MONEY. MY TELEGRAMS DONT ARRIVE FIRST. MY TELEGRAMS GET BLOCKED. You experience none of those. So I don't want to hear the word "fair" again from you. You are the epitome of privilege.

In fact, clearly the new perverse incentive here is that UCRs should attack and occupy GCRs in order to get better, free, and fast recruitment delivery. I'll be presenting the idea to my superiors.

[The Black Hat Guy]

You should have to be in the recruitment tg queue, like the rest of us.

Why, exactly? Ours are the only regions that get bombarded with hundreds of recruitment TG's from the rest of the game, and yet we don't bitch about it. Giving us a chance to pitch ourselves to our new residents before they get recruited away is only fair.

I'm going to have to agree with Afforess here. It's certainly true that your regions are the only ones spammed by RC TGs, but that only because of the far greater benefit that causes that detriment - nations, by default are obviously founded in feeders. That immediately sets the playing field in your favor, as many nations say in their default region no matter what. If your natives were the only ones spammed with RC TGs, then you may have a point, but they are not, so you do not.

So, in essence, with this welcome telegram feeders have both the benefit of being feeders combined with an instant, prioritized recruitment TG thatnot only recruits for that region far more efficiently than any RC TG, but contains instructions telling nations how to block all other RC TGs, effectively monopolizing recruitment over many new nations.

Don't get me wrong, I think welcome telegrams are a great addition to the game. However, at least for feeders, they should be put into the recruitment queue just as any other recruitment telegram, because effectively, that's what they are and more.

[Ballotonia]

It's part of the intended structure of the game to have Feeders be special regions. They're not supposed to be equal to all player-created regions, and as such Feeders being different isn't 'unfair'.

Ballotonia

[Glen-Rhodes]

It's part of the intended structure of the game to have Feeders be special regions. They're not supposed to be equal to all player-created regions, and as such Feeders being different isn't 'unfair'.

There's a very big difference in considering Feeders to be "special" and placing structural biases in their favor to the detriment of all other regions. Is there some structural purpose in allowing Feeders to have first dibs on recruitment/retainment messages?

I think you'll have to tell us more than just "Feeders are special." Feeders serve multiple purposes, but the largest is that they're recruiting pools. Perhaps you're encouraging people to recruit from UCRs? I don't know, but I know we've grown accustomed to more detailed answers...

[South Pacific Belschaft]

It's part of the intended structure of the game to have Feeders be special regions. They're not supposed to be equal to all player-created regions, and as such Feeders being different isn't 'unfair'.

There's a very big difference in considering Feeders to be "special" and placing structural biases in their favor to the detriment of all other regions. Is there some structural purpose in allowing Feeders to have first dibs on recruitment/retainment messages?

I think you'll have to tell us more than just "Feeders are special." Feeders serve multiple purposes, but the largest is that they're recruiting pools. Perhaps you're encouraging people to recruit from UCRs? I don't know, but I know we've grown accustomed to more detailed answers...

How about 'We're communicating with people already in our region whilst your trying to get them to leave it?'.

[Afforess]

It's part of the intended structure of the game to have Feeders be special regions. They're not supposed to be equal to all player-created regions, and as such Feeders being different isn't 'unfair'.

Ballotonia

I'll take this as a tacit approval of my plan to crash feeders, destroy their culture and simply use them as a more effective means of recruitment. As a bonus, ejecting nations from feeders causes more new nations to arrive, making recruitment even more effective. I know a couple regions who might help out.

[Ballotonia]

It's part of the intended structure of the game to have Feeders be special regions. They're not supposed to be equal to all player-created regions, and as such Feeders being different isn't 'unfair'.

Ballotonia

I'll take this as a tacit approval of my plan to crash feeders, destroy their culture and simply use them as a more effective means of recruitment. As a bonus, ejecting nations from feeders causes more new nations to arrive, making recruitment even more effective. I know a couple regions who might help out.

I'm not in the business of approving or disapproving of a particular choice in line of play, so I'll merely note that what you write above is legal. Francos Spain did it, and anyone else may do so as well.

Ballotonia

[Mahaj]

But that still doesn't mean that welcoming telegrams should be sent before recruitment telegrams.

Welcoming telegrams are just as much recruitment telegrams.

[All Good People]

Then I guess the GCRs should stop restraining themselves from sending recruitment tgs to UCRs.

[Afforess]

Then I guess the GCRs should stop restraining themselves from sending recruitment tgs to UCRs.

I was unaware they were restraining themselves.

[The Black Hat Guy]

It's part of the intended structure of the game to have Feeders be special regions. They're not supposed to be equal to all player-created regions, and as such Feeders being different isn't 'unfair'.

Ballotonia

I agree that Feeders are and should be special regions, but in terms of recruitment, I don't think that they should have any special advantage other than the obvious - recruiting already has a depressingly low success rate, and allowing a specific region to have and instantaneous, more effective recruitment telegram excludes others and makes recruiting even harder than it already is.

[Afforess]

It's part of the intended structure of the game to have Feeders be special regions. They're not supposed to be equal to all player-created regions, and as such Feeders being different isn't 'unfair'.

Ballotonia

I agree that Feeders are and should be special regions, but in terms of recruitment, I don't think that they should have any special advantage other than the obvious - recruiting already has a depressingly low success rate, and allowing a specific region to have and instantaneous, more effective recruitment telegram excludes others and makes recruiting even harder than it already is.

Nah, I now see Ballotonia is completely right. Let's just leave and let live. I support the new welcome tg's and think nothing about them should be changed.

[[violet]]

There's a very big difference in considering Feeders to be "special" and placing structural biases in their favor to the detriment of all other regions.

The way I see it, the structural bias is that new nations get placed into Feeders. Other regions have to prise them out; Feeders don't. That's a huge advantage, recruitment for free, but it's always existed. It's the blessing and curse of being a Feeder.

I don't see the Welcome TG as recruitment. No doubt it can be used to combat recruitment from outside, but you can't recruit somebody you already have. It's common for Delegates & Founders in both game-created and player-created regions to TG their residents to combat recruitment, and I don't think Feeders should be denied the same opportunity.

Also, from a practical point of view, Feeders can send TGs to newly founded residents via the API, with or without the Welcome TG feature, and these will usually arrive ahead of any recruitment TGs. It's easier and faster with Welcome TGs, but only by degrees.

Bottom-line, while I accept that the Welcome TG helps Feeders to the detriment of recruiters, I don't think it's a large difference, and it doesn't change anything fundamental. The fact is that Feeders get nations for free.

[Glen-Rhodes]

I don't see the Welcome TG as recruitment. No doubt it can be used to combat recruitment from outside, but you can't recruit somebody you already have. It's common for Delegates & Founders in both game-created and player-created regions to TG their residents to combat recruitment, and I don't think Feeders should be denied the same opportunity.

I think the core problem here isn't that Feeders are able to send telegrams first and say how awesome the region is. It's more about these telegrams being used to actively remove players from the recruiting pool by emphasizing turning off recruitment telegrams. At some point, the structural bias may turn into a structural problem. If you want to encourage people to turn to UCRs for recruitment, it's a good idea to make GCRs more unattractive. But it doesn't look like that's what you guys have in mind, and even if it is, I don't think the system is ready for that kind of sudden shift.

I'm generally against content restrictions, mostly because it's hard to police. The Feeders are so small in number, though, and you guys can see the Welcome message on your end. So I think it makes sense to consider banning the Feeders from instructing players to turn off recruitment messages. Feeders can use the API to send messages to older players that haven't moved out. But I agree with Afforess that it's an abuse of the Welcome TG to shut out other recruiters, when Feeders already get the benefit of having their TG be the first in the inbox.

We can wait and see if these Welcome messages cause that effect, but honestly, waiting-and-seeing has been really detrimental to recruiting this whole time. We keep waiting until after things have blown up, rather than stopping when the trends are pretty clear.

Bottom-line, while I accept that the Welcome TG helps Feeders to the detriment of recruiters, I don't think it's a large difference, and it doesn't change anything fundamental. The fact is that Feeders get nations for free.

Feeders get nations for free, but there's never been a structural bias for Feeders to keep those nations. That's what I was trying to say to Ballotonia.