New TG system: Q&A Thread

[[violet]]

Also, to be clear, the welcome messages that feeders and sinkers send out to welcome a nation to their region would not count as recruitment would it?

No. A recruitment TG is a message that encourages the recipient to move regions. It's not recruitment to welcome someone to your region, or encourage them to stay.

If it doesn't it wouldn't be in queue behind all the bought messages as well as the autoscripted ones, which means it won't be shown days later when "Welcome to The South Pacific, you find yourself in a region..." is no longer accurate or relevant if they move.

No TG will sit in a queue for days. Recruitment messages are spaced out a little, if necessary, and other TGs by so little that it won't usually be noticeable. I wouldn't expect any TG to be delayed more than 10 minutes or so*, and that's if you're last in the queue to send a recruitment TG to a nation that a dozen other people are simultaneously targeting.

(*Edit: Lest this be interpreted as evidence of impending Spamaggedon, please allow me to clarify that this situation is when the TG is cleared for delivery to the recipient--i.e. not blocked for spam reasons--but the system wants to space it out because there are multiple recruitment TGs incoming at once. I am not saying that every recruitment TG ever sent will arrive at every addressee within 10 minutes.)

[[violet]]

Maybe they can create new macros? Or even some kind of conditional statements.

I am open to adding more things besides %NATION%, but I'd like to hear usage cases for them. I'm a bit wary of supporting macros that will be used for deceit; i.e. to make it look like the sender is taking the time to write a personalized message when they're not.

Edit:

Code: Select all

Hello %%NATION%%,

<!-- IF UNSTATUS equals "Non-member" -->I see you aren't a member of the World Assembly. Our delegate really needs your endorsement, so please consider joining!

<!-- ELSE -->I see you're a member of the World Assembly! That's great! If you haven't yet, you should check out our forum, where you can discuss and vote on the current resolutions on the floor.

Or whatever. It would be complicated for the average user, but that's alright. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to do something like this, but it's not the first time a game would have done it.

That would be interesting. I would consider adding that in the future if people wanted it.

[Mahaj]

Also, to be clear, the welcome messages that feeders and sinkers send out to welcome a nation to their region would not count as recruitment would it?

No. A recruitment TG is a message that encourages the recipient to move regions. It's not recruitment to welcome someone to your region, or encourage them to stay.

So a message that encourages someone to take a quiz about NationStates, or to join an organization that didn't require them to move regions, or a message that invites them to come talk with someone else offsite... those would not be considered recruitment, yes?

[Lordieth]

From what I understand of the new API system, sending telegrams via it requires the use of the tag:API. Which, If I am understanding this correctly, means that if I wanted to send a unique telegram every time, that I would have to request a new key for each new message I needed to send first, then make a call with that key to send that message to just one nation, then keep repeating that process. Which seems terribly inefficient.

If there were a simple way of sending an individual telegram to an individual nation via the API, then I'm all for that. but I'm quite happy to just use cURL and do it through simulated user input. As I said. I don't even have to load the nation's page to send the telegram, so server load should not be an issue.

I can't figure out why you want an automated way of sending TGs if the content is "unique every time." If you're composing unique content and sending it to unique nations, that's just regular TG-sending.

The reason for an API and a template system for manual recruiters is to ease the process when the TG content is not unique each time; i.e. you want to send the same message to lots of recipients.

Understood. I'm not really interested in looking for an automated way of sending unique telegrams. I can do all of that already. I was just trying to get a clear idea of what the new API can and cannot do.

I'd just like to know if I can use scripts to send telegrams once the new rules are enforced. As in, create a message by script, and send it to a nation by script. Will that sort of scripting be allowable again? I only need the current available data from the API. I know this new system will be allowable, but I'm still hazy on what the scripting rules will say about sending post requests to nation pages.

[[violet]]

A question, sorry if I've missed this - will we be able to delete our own sent messages?

No, you can't. Your Sent Items is an accurate record of TGs you've sent.

[[violet]]

No. A recruitment TG is a message that encourages the recipient to move regions. It's not recruitment to welcome someone to your region, or encourage them to stay.

So a message that encourages someone to take a quiz about NationStates, or to join an organization that didn't require them to move regions, or a message that invites them to come talk with someone else offsite... those would not be considered recruitment, yes?

I would imagine current rules continue to apply, i.e. there will still be situations where some messages are arguably recruitment TGs and arguably not. But under the new system, only messages marked as recruitment TGs get the 1-click "move to <region>" button, so any "stealth recruitment TG" would miss out on that.

[[violet]]

I'd just like to know if I can use scripts to send telegrams once the new rules are enforced. As in, create a message by script, and send it to a nation by script. Will that sort of scripting be allowable again? I only need the current available data from the API. I know this new system will be allowable, but I'm still hazy on what the scripting rules will say about sending post requests to nation pages.

I expect the new rules to completely ban scripts from sending TGs unless they use the API. And it's not possible to compose a TG under the API; it can only be used to deliver a copy of a pre-prepared message.

It will be possible to compose, say, half a dozen different templates, all of which are similar but differ slightly depending on whether the intended recipient is a WA member or whatever, and use the API to dish out those. But it won't be possible to use the API to create & send TGs from scratch. I don't see any need for that.

[Laevendell]

I expect the new rules to completely ban scripts from sending TGs unless they use the API. And it's not possible to compose a TG under the API; it can only be used to deliver a copy of a pre-prepared message.

It will be possible to compose, say, half a dozen different templates, all of which are similar but differ slightly depending on whether the intended recipient is a WA member or whatever, and use the API to dish out those. But it won't be possible to use the API to create & send TGs from scratch. I don't see any need for that.

So an outside application won't be allowed to log in to the website and send a message (in response to user action) as if the nation was logged in directly? Or do you mean only automatic scripts?
I would be very grateful if it were possible to authenticate through the API (e.g. with a generated key as suggested in these threads) to access parts like telegrams and issues, rather than accessing them by sending post requests through forms from the external application, but I definitely appreciate that it might not be a large user base for such functionality and thus wouldn't warrant the required work.

[Charles Cerebella]

I'm not sure if it has been answered as I've only read the first 5 pages of this thread (though I've read all 18 of the other one) but if more regions are paying for recruitment telegrams than there is space in the inbox, are some not going to get delivered or pushed out possibly before they have been read? I would be very concerned about spending my money on a message that might not actually be seen.

I had over questions that popped up while I was reading the other thread but I appear to have forgotten them...

[Lordieth]

I'd just like to know if I can use scripts to send telegrams once the new rules are enforced. As in, create a message by script, and send it to a nation by script. Will that sort of scripting be allowable again? I only need the current available data from the API. I know this new system will be allowable, but I'm still hazy on what the scripting rules will say about sending post requests to nation pages.

I expect the new rules to completely ban scripts from sending TGs unless they use the API.

Oh, I see. That's unfortunate. May I ask why? If the API is going to allow for mass telegramming, then I was getting the impression that the rules were being lifted on how we send telegrams. I'd be quite happy to be restricted to any imposed limit on the rate at which telegrams would be sent, and as I stated I can't see that it is a performance issue.

If those are the rules, then of course I will abide by them. It would have opened up some great possibilities though.

Guess I'll just give up and get back to my other projects.

[Capisaria]

When exactly is this thing going up? Some time earlier the site wouldn't load I thought maybe then.

[Jamie Anumia]

When exactly is this thing going up? Some time earlier the site wouldn't load I thought maybe then.

News post says in a few days.

[Mousebumples]

What about a %%REGION%% tag/whatever you call it thingy? When sending WA TGs, I often like to include their region name. Sometimes WADs are replaced between when I send the TG and when they read it, or perhaps they move, etc., so that helps to clarify who/why I'm sending the TG to them.

I'm used to hand-typing the nation and region name, but ... I'm okay with making that part of my TG process easier ...

EDIT: Unless such a tag would change as the target nation moves from region to region? I'd figure that if it would stay static as whatever region they resided in when the TG was sent, it could be useful.

[[violet]]

I expect the new rules to completely ban scripts from sending TGs unless they use the API. And it's not possible to compose a TG under the API; it can only be used to deliver a copy of a pre-prepared message.

So an outside application won't be allowed to log in to the website and send a message (in response to user action) as if the nation was logged in directly? Or do you mean only automatic scripts?

I mean automatic scripts, yes, sorry. If you're talking about something like a phone app, where a particular user logs into their nation and taps out a TG, that's different, and they can certainly continue to use the TG page.

This issue, as we've discussed, ultimately requires some kind of authentication for third-party sites so that users can safely answer issues etc.

[[violet]]

When exactly is this thing going up? Some time earlier the site wouldn't load I thought maybe then.

News post says in a few days.

When I stop answering posts and start committing code.

[[violet]]

I'm not sure if it has been answered as I've only read the first 5 pages of this thread (though I've read all 18 of the other one) but if more regions are paying for recruitment telegrams than there is space in the inbox, are some not going to get delivered or pushed out possibly before they have been read? I would be very concerned about spending my money on a message that might not actually be seen.

Yes, valid question, and I'm not quite sure, to be honest. Right now, it is possible for a nation to receive so many recruitment messages that earlier ones get pushed out, unread. Whereas, as you say, if you're paying for delivery, that doesn't seem right, and delivery of later TGs should probably be blocked with "Inbox Full" instead.

(Note: recruitment TGs cannot push out regular TGs.)

[Mahaj]

So a message that encourages someone to take a quiz about NationStates, or to join an organization that didn't require them to move regions, or a message that invites them to come talk with someone else offsite... those would not be considered recruitment, yes?

I would imagine current rules continue to apply, i.e. there will still be situations where some messages are arguably recruitment TGs and arguably not. But under the new system, only messages marked as recruitment TGs get the 1-click "move to <region>" button, so any "stealth recruitment TG" would miss out on that.

But overall, are the rules of what constitutes recruitment going to be more relaxed?

[Weed]

If it doesn't it wouldn't be in queue behind all the bought messages as well as the autoscripted ones, which means it won't be shown days later when "Welcome to The South Pacific, you find yourself in a region..." is no longer accurate or relevant if they move.

No TG will sit in a queue for days. Recruitment messages are spaced out a little, if necessary, and other TGs by so little that it won't usually be noticeable. I wouldn't expect any TG to be delayed more than 10 minutes or so*, and that's if you're last in the queue to send a recruitment TG to a nation that a dozen other people are simultaneously targeting.

(*Edit: Lest this be interpreted as evidence of impending Spamaggedon, please allow me to clarify that this situation is when the TG is cleared for delivery to the recipient--i.e. not blocked for spam reasons--but the system wants to space it out because there are multiple recruitment TGs incoming at once. I am not saying that every recruitment TG ever sent will arrive at every addressee within 10 minutes.)

I meant the other, as in if they had marked 'some' recruitment and only got one per day, if we welcomed them and we were 5th in line there is a good chance they will move by then. But, you nixed my concern, so thanks!

Care to respond to the questions I've asked about if recruitment by API will be legal to be fully automated? I think I've asked four times now.

[Strawberrry Fields]

A big difference is that recruiting has previously been limited by region, and to only a few of those. That was non-ideal because some nations in the "OK-to-recruit" regions didn't want to receive recruitment messages, and some people in the "not-OK" regions did.

It's now going to be limited by nation. So if you're a nation, you can choose whether you want those messages, regardless of where you live. And if you're a recruiter, you will have a much larger pool of nations you can reach.

Hmm this really concerns me, I assume the default setting will be to allow for recruitment ads, and thus majority of nations can be recruited at any given time.

If the default setting was any different it would cause huge problems. The ablility to turn off recruitment messages should be an active decision that happens after the nation is created, not beforehand, and not automatically off.

Noticing the "Who will you recruitspam-attack with the new TG rules?" thread - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=222963

See I feel the feeders are gaining alot here, and for some time have been less "feeders" then the original intent.

Now to me, having nations automatically founded in your region seems like a luxury, no need to work and build the region. I would gladly stop recruiting and put up with adspam and recruiting in my region if we had new nations regularly founded within the region.

Now not only do they continue to get new nations founded in there region free, they no longer have the trade off of being the only place to recruit.

You can recruit in my player made region and I don't get free nations founded there. Seems rather unfair.

Yes. This gives GCRs a lot more power. The way I described it, recruiting against the feeders is like bailing with a thimble. Under the new system, if all the feeders decided to go to war against even a foundered region, that foundered region would hardly grow, if at all. This is a very unbalanced system which takes power from UCRs to empower the GCRs. Now, I know many NS staff favor the GCRs: they are part of the "system", the "elite", the "norm", but for the safety of everyone else, if this is implemented I want it to be illegal for the GCRs to recruit. The system does it for them, and if they get to recruit they will have a huge advantage.

At the very least the default should automatically shift to "not recruitable" while in a player-made region unless changed manually.

This is the first thing you said which I have to disagree with. The rule modification adds a new layer to the game which I think is very good, and if we were to do that it would make it hard for the new "UCR to UCR" recruiting. The real problem is the possibility of "Feeder to UCR" or "Sinker to UCR" recruiting, where the GCRs could recruit the very people the UCRs had to work to get. See, if one UCR recruits from another UCR, both the first UCR and the second UCR had to convince the player to move regions. Not so in feeders and sinkers. They essentially get free recruitment, and could easily put all their effort to recruiting from UCRs they dislike, who would have to put in nearly the same amount of effort just to maintain their size.

Or maybe even eliminate the feeders being feeders, have ten random regions be the feeders who spawn nations for a day or week, then ten new random ones or something.

There's a thought. Personally, though, I would prefer it if all non-passworded regions spawned new nations, and if the probability of growth was proportional to the number of nations in that region. That way the feeders would start with the highest growth rate, and the change would feel gradual, rather than a sudden change. Also, it would help prevent players from starting in extremely small regions, where they are more likely to quit playing because of a lack of activity.

The feeders can already suppress ads, and even use there size to raid defenseless founderless regions who adspam, now saying you can recruit anywhere and loosing the one trade off a feeder has is a bit much in my eyes.

You make the feeders have everything, and anyone who hopes to keep a player made region alive is going to need money.

That is the height of this ordeal. The fact that so few people know how to use a recruitment script, let alone recruit, will drive people to buy stamps, which will become a definite game advantage to have. The fact that the UCRs will have to pay for their recruitment with real money, while the feeders get to sit back and get it all done - not just with no effort, but - for free will be the death of the existence of most UCRs. The real creators for NS, the founders of UCRs and their respective communities, will likely gather in a handful of regions of their own, and will focus their efforts on taking control of the GCRs, to rid themselves of the great inequality.

Have these concerns been addressed or considered?

[Capisaria]

News post says in a few days.

When I stop answering posts and start committing code.

Sweet! By the end of the year then?

[Sichuan Pepper]

So a message that encourages someone to take a quiz about NationStates, or to join an organization that didn't require them to move regions, or a message that invites them to come talk with someone else offsite... those would not be considered recruitment, yes?

I would be interested in the answer to this one.......I believe it should count as recruitment if your organization requires movement of WA status. WA nations are a valuable asset to any region so I would hope that it would count as recruitment. Seeing as the rules are being changed to reflect legal recruiting in UCR's I do not see how that would be a problem.

Surely spam rules will remain unchanged by the new TG system? Hopefully all will be clarified by a comprehensive set of rules to follow.

[Mallorea and Riva]

No. A recruitment TG is a message that encourages the recipient to move regions. It's not recruitment to welcome someone to your region, or encourage them to stay.

So a message that encourages someone to take a quiz about NationStates, or to join an organization that didn't require them to move regions, or a message that invites them to come talk with someone else offsite... those would not be considered recruitment, yes?

Recruitment is recruitment is recruitment is recruitment.

[Mahaj]

So a message that encourages someone to take a quiz about NationStates, or to join an organization that didn't require them to move regions, or a message that invites them to come talk with someone else offsite... those would not be considered recruitment, yes?

Recruitment is recruitment is recruitment is recruitment.

Except none of those are really recruitment.

[Libertas Liber]

Recruitment is recruitment is recruitment is recruitment.

Except none of those are really recruitment.

A believe that's his point. He's saying those aren't considered recruitment in that you're not recruiting anyone to move their nation and join a particular region. As well, [violet] pointed out that this type of "stealth recruitment" won't receive the benefit of a "move NATION to REGION" button. And including that snippet yourself in the message would automatically qualify it as a recruit TG.

Edit: I was wrong. *goes back to reading instead of posting*

[Tramiar]

Recruitment is recruitment is recruitment is recruitment.

Except none of those are really recruitment.

Except recruiting someone to join an organization is still recruitment. The UDL shouldn't not have to admit to recruiting simply because they have no region. Like Wordy said, WA status is something most regions want more of, and you're attempting to take that away from whatever region they reside in.