Proposal: Safe Switching

[Belschaft]

In response to the current issues regarding switching WA's I've spent the last couple of hours thinking over how it could be improved. I've come up with a suggestion, and though it's not very nuanced I think it could be developed into the solution we're all looking for.


At present it is possible to switch nations at a click of a button. Would it not be possible to extend that to WA membership? Under the current 'Resign WA' button, a 'Switch WA' button could be added. Having clicked on this, the player could be redirect to a page similar to the normal login page, but with the special addition to transfer there WA status. This would make it not only easier to switch WA's - allowing more people to play R/D on a high level - but also eliminate the risk involved in switching. As you would only need one WA application, and would not normally have to apply again after being accepted (only having to do so if you resigned, instead of switching) there is no excuse to accidentally multi - it could only happen intentionally.

The benefits are simple;

1. Easier access to a core gameplay mechanic - no need for endless email accounts or to update WA apps once a month. Any nation you posses can be made WA without an app.
2. No risk of multing
3. When multing does occur, the mods don't have to wonder if it was accidental or not - it could only be intentional


I'm sorry if that's not a very nuanced idea, but I'm a bit tired right now. I do, however, think it's worth considering.

[Mahaj]

So the chain would *start* with a WA app, yes?

And from there, future apps wouldn't be needed, so long as you were 'switching', and not resigning?

I like.

[Unibot III]

Genius, but you need a term that fits within nation simulation terms.

[Belschaft]

So the chain would *start* with a WA app, yes?

And from there, future apps wouldn't be needed, so long as you were 'switching', and not resigning?

I like.

Yes, exactly. Everyone is still limited to one WA, but only needs one email address, doesn't have to maintain infinite applications at any one time (for example, most R/Ders have at least 20+ pending apps) and doesn't risk multing. All in all it's safer and easier.

[Belschaft]

Genius, but you need a term that fits within nation simulation terms.

Changing ambassadors to the WA?

[Topid]

Genius, but you need a term that fits within nation simulation terms.

Changing ambassadors to the WA?

Or maybe requesting recognition of a successor state?

I still wouldn't mind multiple updating nations (so long as population and issues don't update too).. The ultimate simplification.

[Durkadurkiranistan II]

Seems to me this is unnecessary; Unibot and perhaps one or two others are the only ones having problems with WA switching.

[Lyanna Stark]

I like this, but also suggest that the nations be linked by the one -email-, not just by whatever nation you log into on that switch screen. I think that'd make it more practical with regards to nation-linking. I'd also propose that it -not- be replacing the current 'switch' login in the corner as that'd be confusing for other non-R/Ders (and downright hazardous to WADs!), but perhaps on the WA page if that page could be stopped from lagging so awfully.

My only question is how would this relate to WA votes and the such? Would their vote transfer as well (that seems like the most clean way, at least to me, besides for WADs kinda).

@Durk: Or the entire active nightly in "NS combat" world..

[Mahaj]

Seems to me this is unnecessary; Unibot and perhaps one or two others are the only ones having problems with WA switching.

Okay, no.

Just because they're the highest profile cases doesn't mean that others don't suffer too.

Others will wind up with the same fate. That's not good for the game.

This is completely necessary.

[Belschaft]

I like this, but also suggest that the nations be linked by the one -email-, not just by whatever nation you log into on that switch screen. I think that'd make it more practical with regards to nation-linking. I'd also propose that it -not- be replacing the current 'switch' login in the corner as that'd be confusing for other non-R/Ders (and downright hazardous to WADs!), but perhaps on the WA page if that page could be stopped from lagging so awfully.

My only question is how would this relate to WA votes and the such? Would their vote transfer as well (that seems like the most clean way, at least to me, besides for WADs kinda).

@Durk: Or the entire active nightly in "NS combat" world..

It being on the WA page was what I intended. Obviously this wouldn't deal with the lag issue, but it would make switching both safer and easier.

As for the idea of transferring votes, I hadn't considered that and have no idea if it would be feasible.

[Durkadurkiranistan II]

Seems to me this is unnecessary; Unibot and perhaps one or two others are the only ones having problems with WA switching.

Okay, no.

Just because they're the highest profile cases doesn't mean that others don't suffer too.

Others will wind up with the same fate. That's not good for the game.

This is completely necessary.

Who else has winded up with the same fate so far, other than Halcones obviously?

[Belschaft]

Okay, no.

Just because they're the highest profile cases doesn't mean that others don't suffer too.

Others will wind up with the same fate. That's not good for the game.

This is completely necessary.

Who else has winded up with the same fate so far, other than Halcones obviously?

As far as I am aware, no one, as of yet. However, just because only two prominent players have suffered from the current problems in the last few weeks is not a reason to not try and solve them. How many players have to fall foul of this before you are willing to support improving the current system of switching your WA? 5? 10? 20?

[Sichuan Pepper]

Some questions before I even think this idea is viable.
Delegate controls would be lost to the nation that switch WA to the next nation?
WA votes would be lost?
Why do we need an email in first place if it will be circumvented after the first switch? How do you control that the switch was not made to a nation that you do not own?

[Belschaft]

Delegate controls would be lost to the nation that switch WA to the next nation?

I don't see why it would work differently than it does currently; if and when a nation leaves the WA it loses delegate controls as soon as the region updates. Under a system I'm proposing it would work just the same as at present, except that where you currently resign the WA and then go your email and re-join on a new nation you would be able to achieve the same without leaving the NS site.

The only potential issue I see that this might have is that while at present it is impossible to receive an application fast enough to resign from the WA on a nation as soon as it updates, reapply, switch to a new nation for update and then rejoin on the original before it updates again. It would be potentially possible to do so under the system I'm suggesting, but that could be prevented via an artificial cool-down system, similar to how the WA does not currently send out applications instantly; once a nation has left the WA it cannot join it again till it updates?

WA votes would be lost?

At present that is the result of switching. I see no reason why this would need to be changed though it may be possible to do so.

Why do we need an email in first place if it will be circumvented after the first switch?

The email would still be required to join the WA in the first place and prevent multiing; once the first nation has joined the WA via the usual method, all other nations that they switch WA too would be linked to that email address.

How do you control that the switch was not made to a nation that you do not own?

The same way we prevent people logging into someone else's nation; When you use the switch nation button you must enter the nation name and password. To switch WA you would have to do the same.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Interesting idea, but the question is whether it will survive the "this game lacks a database" test. I had an idea to link all WA switchers to a single email, meaning anytime a nation tried to join that already had a WA on that email that request would fail, thereby making multiing accidentally impossible... but it failed the database test.

Admins? Doable?

[Sichuan Pepper]

Changing WA Nations is currently safe. The only problem I see here is too much rush. Once again it is clock raiding / defending that needs to be addressed.
This proposal seems to be addressing a player created problem rather than a game mechanic.

[Lyanna Stark]

Changing WA Nations is currently safe. The only problem I see here is too much rush. Once again it is clock raiding / defending that needs to be addressed.
This proposal seems to be addressing a player created problem rather than a game mechanic.

The game mechanic failing is what is making this a problem for the players. The WA page is lagging, the button isn't always working. Fact: there are problems within mechanics. Yes, they're shown through fast actions but that lag is the game problem.

Raiders are going to do what they can to raid as fast as they can to beat defenders. Defenders are going to go as fast as we possibly can to stop raiders. That's fact. Tagging, as it stands, is part of the game. Switching is, and has been, common play. Speed in necessary--while you're switching you're blinded so you want to do it as fast possible.

[Unibot III]

Changing WA Nations is currently safe. The only problem I see here is too much rush. Once again it is clock raiding / defending that needs to be addressed.
This proposal seems to be addressing a player created problem rather than a game mechanic.

It's not "clock raiding/defending" at all, it's players competing against each and forcing themselves to be -quicker-, so quick it causes technical difficulties. But players are enjoying quicker raiding and defending, so why not pursue ways to resolve technical difficulties instead of getting rid of the pace of the competition that people are enjoying (minus the multing and lag).

[General Halcones]

I back you fully. This is completely necessary, and it's getting pretty urgent too.

Now both myself and Uni have come to the same fate. Two players, who have been on the game for several years, eventually becoming WA banned due to a mechanical fault. If a video game had such a fault, no one would be playing it.

It will not be long until others fall down the same hole. It is inevitable. Eventually, all raiders and defenders will be WA banned due to this fault, and the game will be no more.

It needs to be fixed, and before the gameplay R/D summit too. I do appreciate any coding difficulties, but nothing is impossible, not when it's to save the game.

[Frisbeeteria]

If a video game had such a fault, no one would be playing it.

This isn't a fault. It's a loophole in the game that raiders and defenders discovered to get around game code. It is NOT a design feature. What you're asking for is an improved exploit so you can have multiple WA nations in a single hour. You may consider that the norm, but it's just an exploit. Your urgent demands notwithstanding, NS admins are under no obligations to fix this, much less per your timetable.

[Belschaft]

If a video game had such a fault, no one would be playing it.

This isn't a fault. It's a loophole in the game that raiders and defenders discovered to get around game code. It is NOT a design feature. What you're asking for is an improved exploit so you can have multiple WA nations in a single hour. You may consider that the norm, but it's just an exploit. Your urgent demands notwithstanding, NS admins are under no obligations to fix this, much less per your timetable.

Whether or not the ability to switch WA nations was an intended feature or not, it has been a core feature of gameplay for at least the last four years - as long as I have been playing the game. I'm almost certain that it has been so for much longer, but I wasn't around then and can't say with 100% certainty. To dismiss something which is a core game mechanic and integral to R/D as 'just an exploit' shows a shocking ignorance gameplay. We are not asking to be granted the ability to have multiple WA's in a single hour; we already have that, and have had that for as long as I can remember. If Max or [violet] wanted to take that away then they would have done so years ago.

The issue is that server lag currently means that to make use of said core game mechanic you are putting yourself at risk - as Max has acknowledged - see the UDL thread for the quote from Unibot - through no fault of your own. Two of the best players in the game have now been banned from participating due to this problem, and the law of averages says more will follow. I've multi'd accidently; so has nearly everyone involved in R/D. It is just a question of luck that more of us haven't been banned yet.

Beyond that however, I think what I'm suggesting is a good idea even if we didn't have this problem. It would make participation in R/D easier for more players, safer for everyone, and would eliminate all question of intent in the future should people be caught with multiple WA's.

You may not think this is an urgent issue, but I think I'm speaking for the majority of the gameplay community when I say it is. This is a problem, and it needs fixing. I have suggested a possible option - certainly not the only option - and to dismiss it out of hand as 'an exploit' is ludicrous.

Edit: Furthermore, when you look at the various people who have spoken on this issue, you see something rare; players from both sides of the R/D spectrum, who consistently argue, agreeing that there is a problem here that needs resolving. That fact alone suggests that we are not exaggerating when we say that this is an urgent matter,

[Cromarty]

Changing WA Nations is currently safe.

Not only does this go against pretty much everything TITO have ever said on switching (interesting that it's taken the permaban of one of your biggest critics to bring this change about) it's also wrong.

[Firstaria]

In my opinion the big problem is that the R/D game has to be regulated elsewhere. This loophole could be used not only for the R/D game, but for boosting and approving WA proposals too, making the entire system corrupted.

It has to be SOLVED, that's for sure, so that no one could switch WA nation if not in a reasonable time to avoid the update exploit, and then the R/D game MUST be brought outside the WA completely. The whole thing has become so big, but it's still treated by the system...as an exploit too.

Yes, the R/D game it's itself an exploit, as the whole invasion game was kinda invented by players realizing how the Delegate function worked and could be used, let's be serious. It grew to a size that cannot be ignored anymore, and I hope in the summit it will be discussed a way to make it become more like a true mechanic of the game more than a side one connected to Delegate Votes. This will be beneficial to the WA, who will then settle to be the organization that is supposed to be, not a battlefield, and to R/D game, that could finally become self-independent and regulated.

[Land filled with People]

It will not be long until others fall down the same hole. It is inevitable. Eventually, all raiders and defenders will be WA banned due to this fault, and the game will be no more.

Well this is dead wrong.....many, many raiders and defenders have and still do manage to switch without multi-ing, accidentally or not, and there are those that don't switch 30 times an update and yet still raid/defend. TBR and UDL are not the only groups participating in R/D.

[Sichuan Pepper]

As of this moment update is a crazy roller-coaster ride. WA happenings are filled with switchers and lag is increasing due to that activity. It is at critical point right now due to the actions of some players taking it to an extreme.
If you cannot switch WA fast enough or safely I would suggest admin shut down WA admits during update until the summit comes up with a solution that is both reasonable and not game breaking.