Variance added

[Unibot II]

That's in general the sentiment I'm getting, we're all arguing the same points and positions here. It needs to change. For some reason the raiders seem to think we can't continue to point out that it needs to change until the summit though, which really makes no sense.

Hmm, it depends somewhat. I think if we were consistently given 5 second windows yes that would totally be possible. But if we get 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-5 that's still not interesting and we're still bored and generally useless during the updates. Which causes fewer updaters. Which causes even fewer possible defenses. The UDL has done a good job IMO having other things to do at updates so that updaters stick around. But even in my memory, I recall having far more updaters.

Basically, if every single person that is online has a 5 second window, no, we probably won't make it. But if we get enough shots and things get fun again I think certainly that enough updaters would be on line for us to start having more defenses again.

Because what is the point in pointing out something that's already been pointed out and agreed on. It's like saying "It's raining today" 'yep' *five minutes later* "It's still raining, in case you haven't noticed" 'so it is..' That is what makes no sense.

I can't speak for TBR. But I don't remember the last raid TBH did where we had a timing of 2 seconds. So where are defenders? Whining about TBR, not stopping the rest of us.

We simply didn't have the updaters to do the defense. I don't think any group had that many updaters online for a defense.

Raiders have an advantage in this regard, they have their missions they can plan for and get updaters for.. defenders have their missions AND regular spotting which requires experienced defenders willing to log in every update.

You can call me out for whining, but I'm not whining... not enough were up for Ohio or Hell to do it .. that -happens-, it's always happened and that's the nature of being a defender. Everything in the game is against you to succeed and you must endure -- want to know why defenders are "moral" defenders? It's because its practical, not just ideal. A moral obligation is sometimes the only thing you have to keep you going.

So if you want to call out defenders as "whining" sure go ahead, I'm just trying to explain to you why you succeeded in taking Ohio and Hell. You got the region, fine. Move on and carry forth.

Defenders are more "whining" about the incredible lag they occurred when they tried to stop the tag-raids after Hell. It's one thing for us to have all of these systematic advantages against us, but then to also have the server acting up when we try to refresh is incredibly frustrating.

[Tramiar]

We simply didn't have the updaters to do the defense. I don't think any group had that many updaters online for a defense.

There wasn't even an attempt, I don't think. I was disappointed. (TBR got all of the at least attempted competition ) And if more than one group had participated in trying to defend, maybe it would've been enough.

But I was talking about the defenders whining about how they can't stop raids because we all move too close to update, and not even mentioning the fact that there are raids that give plenty of time for movement. Not so much because they didn't stop it due to lack of people, but more that they were ignoring it to complain about tags like they were the only raids, when they can easily be cleaned up the next day.

[Unibot II]

We simply didn't have the updaters to do the defense. I don't think any group had that many updaters online for a defense.

There wasn't even an attempt, I don't think. I was disappointed. (TBR got all of the at least attempted competition ) And if more than one group had participated in trying to defend, maybe it would've been enough.

There wasn't an attempt because there was only me (and Fratt?) I think online at a Friday Major. I saw the numbers and went "hahaha no way in hell". >_>

But I was talking about the defenders whining about how they can't stop raids because we all move too close to update, and not even mentioning the fact that there are raids that give plenty of time for movement.

I haven't had a problem with timing except for when the lag was occurring during the tags.

Not so much because they didn't stop it due to lack of people, but more that they were ignoring it to complain about tags like they were the only raids, when they can easily be cleaned up the next day.

We didn't have the people online to stop Ohio and Hell, I've explained this. We were one short to be effective against Halc on Thursday -- since he just started downsizing his targets so he didn't have to worry about us endorsing natives (you coward ).

Not to mention, we got frustrated when weren't able to move in time -- the game was locking up when the raiders were moving causing our screens to like "pause" when we tried to move. -_-

[Tramiar]

Uni, I think you're missing the point of my last post. It isn't you I was talking about. "Fendas" or "defenders" is usually a generalization and not all-inclusive.

[Unibot II]

Uni, I think you're missing the point of my last post. It isn't you I was talking about. "Fendas" or "defenders" is usually a generalization and not all-inclusive.

I BE ALL DEFENDERS >_>

Fine, just perhaps, direct your comments to more specific targets.

[Tramiar]

Uni, I think you're missing the point of my last post. It isn't you I was talking about. "Fendas" or "defenders" is usually a generalization and not all-inclusive.

I BE ALL DEFENDERS >_>

Fine, just perhaps, direct your comments to more specific targets.

I'm not going to sit here and go through the comments and name every single defender who I think says dumb stuff. You generalize, so can I. >.> As much as Eist hates being grouped with "defenders".

[Sedgistan]

Please remember this thread is a Technical forum discussion of the addition of variance to the game. Some of the chat here is better suited to the Gameplay forum.

[Unibot II]

Ballo, if I understand it correctly, you'd added both "negative" and "positive" variance -- probably to balance out the effect of variance, so you don't expand the length of update too much. Might I recommend imbalancing the net outcome, so you're more likely to get positive variance than negative variance. If it adds 10 mins to update or something, so be it.

I'd argue it's more fun to have positive variance than negative variance -- going early into your target means you're fighting your enemy not the clock.

[Eist]

Ballo, if I understand it correctly, you'd added both "negative" and "positive" variance -- probably to balance out the effect of variance, so you don't expand the length of update too much. Might I recommend imbalancing the net outcome, so you're more likely to get positive variance than negative variance. If it adds 10 mins to update or something, so be it.

I'd argue it's more fun to have positive variance than negative variance -- going early into your target means you're fighting your enemy not the clock.

Interesting point, but I think you are forgetting that the region before might have positive variance. Since there is a fraction of a second between regions, the negative variance before a target region is largely negated. I guess that if the update was longer (currently it is pretty much exactly the same length), then the gap between regions updating would be longer, extending the gap that raiders have to jump to mostly assure getting into a target region in time.

[Unibot II]

I think this Variance has caused the game to be more imbalanced to raiders. With them able to eject and ban much quicker than they could a few years ago (now having ban and eject buttons on nations, utilization of multiple people on the same lead), anything more than a three-second margin can kill a twenty-people liberation operation.

We needed the three-second time to be able to pull off a big liberation due game changes over the past few years and lax moderation over the multiple-logins.

Three seconds is not necessary to pull off a raid, it is for a liberation -- because there's a difference between a raid and liberation. In a raid, you rarely face banning and ejecting, you only face who can respond to your raid and move in time.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I think this Variance has caused the game to be more imbalanced to raiders. With them able to eject and ban much quicker than they could a few years ago (now having ban and eject buttons on nations, utilization of multiple people on the same lead), anything more than a three-second margin can kill a twenty-people liberation operation.

We needed the three-second time to be able to pull off a big liberation due game changes over the past few years and lax moderation over the multiple-logins.

Three seconds is not necessary to pull off a raid, it is for a liberation -- because there's a difference between a raid and liberation. In a raid, you rarely face banning and ejecting, you only face who can respond to your raid and move in time.

You're exaggerating. You can still snipe update times with proper triggers. Judging by the last few liberation attempts I've seen from the UDL (excluding Ohio, still crunching the numbers), it has been user error.

[Unibot II]

(currently it is pretty much exactly the same length)

It is the exact same, pretty much, probably because he's increasing and decreasing the speed of update, so it evens out to a net balance.

[Unibot II]

I think this Variance has caused the game to be more imbalanced to raiders. With them able to eject and ban much quicker than they could a few years ago (now having ban and eject buttons on nations, utilization of multiple people on the same lead), anything more than a three-second margin can kill a twenty-people liberation operation.

We needed the three-second time to be able to pull off a big liberation due game changes over the past few years and lax moderation over the multiple-logins.

Three seconds is not necessary to pull off a raid, it is for a liberation -- because there's a difference between a raid and liberation. In a raid, you rarely face banning and ejecting, you only face who can respond to your raid and move in time.

You're exaggerating. You can still snipe update times with proper triggers. Judging by the last few liberation attempts I've seen from the UDL (excluding Ohio, still crunching the numbers), it has been user error.

Bullshit -- raiders haven't been able to pull off the move-times lately that was necessary to pull off any big lib BEFORE variance. We used to need three-four second timing to do ANYTHING against TBR or TBH. The addition of variance has hurt our ability to liberate more than it has hurt your ability to raid.

[Mallorea and Riva]

You're exaggerating. You can still snipe update times with proper triggers. Judging by the last few liberation attempts I've seen from the UDL (excluding Ohio, still crunching the numbers), it has been user error.

Bullshit -- raiders haven't been able to pull off the move-times lately that was necessary to pull off any big lib BEFORE variance. We used to need three-four second timing to do ANYTHING against TBR or TBH. The addition of variance has hurt our ability to liberate more than it has hurt your ability to raid.

You guys missed by 23 seconds in your last liberation attempt. That was not due to variance. Are you using your bot? Or are you doing it the old fashioned way?

[Jakker]

You're exaggerating. You can still snipe update times with proper triggers. Judging by the last few liberation attempts I've seen from the UDL (excluding Ohio, still crunching the numbers), it has been user error.

Bullshit -- raiders haven't been able to pull off the move-times lately that was necessary to pull off any big lib BEFORE variance. We used to need three-four second timing to do ANYTHING against TBR or TBH. The addition of variance has hurt our ability to liberate more than it has hurt your ability to raid.

I handled Hell quite easily. I promise it's easier than it looks. It's you guys not the variance.

[Unibot II]

Bullshit -- raiders haven't been able to pull off the move-times lately that was necessary to pull off any big lib BEFORE variance. We used to need three-four second timing to do ANYTHING against TBR or TBH. The addition of variance has hurt our ability to liberate more than it has hurt your ability to raid.

You guys missed by 23 seconds in your last liberation attempt. That was not due to variance. Are you using your bot? Or are you doing it the old fashioned way?

On Ohio?

[Unibot II]

Bullshit -- raiders haven't been able to pull off the move-times lately that was necessary to pull off any big lib BEFORE variance. We used to need three-four second timing to do ANYTHING against TBR or TBH. The addition of variance has hurt our ability to liberate more than it has hurt your ability to raid.

I handled Hell quite easily. I promise it's easier than it looks. It's you guys not the variance.

You're a liar, the people were in the region and moved fine. Now stop spreading false information in Technical so that you can throw off the mods of a legitimate problem.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I handled Hell quite easily. I promise it's easier than it looks. It's you guys not the variance.

You're a liar, the people were in the region and moved fine. Now stop spreading false information in Technical so that you can throw off the mods of a legitimate problem.

You moved so freaking early/late that he had no problem tossing you guys out. That's what he's saying.

You guys missed by 23 seconds in your last liberation attempt. That was not due to variance. Are you using your bot? Or are you doing it the old fashioned way?

On Ohio?

No on Hell. And whatever lib you guys did before that you missed by somewhere around 2 minutes. According to the Admins:

The artificial variance added isn't even remotely that large, so this must be actual 'natural' system lag. Sometimes that happens, in the old days it happened all the time.

Ballotonia

That OR you guys straight up screwed up the times.

[Unibot II]

You moved so freaking early that he had no problem tossing you guys out. That's what he's saying.

That's ... variance. Not the guys.

[Tramiar]

You moved so freaking early that he had no problem tossing you guys out. That's what he's saying.

That's ... variance. Not the guys.

Is that why "the guys" often don't even move close in time to each other? When you have more than like 5, that is.

[Jakker]

You moved so freaking early that he had no problem tossing you guys out. That's what he's saying.

That's ... variance. Not the guys.

That's whoever is doing your times. Not variance.

[Mallorea and Riva]

You moved so freaking early that he had no problem tossing you guys out. That's what he's saying.

That's ... variance. Not the guys.

You have the Admin telling you it isn't variance! What more proof do you need?

[Unibot II]

That's ... variance. Not the guys.

You have the Admin telling you it isn't variance! What more proof do you need?

How can we have decent times, then Ballo puts in the variance change and we're continually off by a lot... and it not be Ballo? Our triggerman is still the same dude. Eluvatar's been off by ten seconds or more.

Furthermore, raiders have more than twenty attempts an update to be able to hit -something-, defenders often get one shot an update for a liberation.

[Jakker]

You have the Admin telling you it isn't variance! What more proof do you need?

How can we have decent times, then Ballo puts in the variance change and we're continually off by a lot... and it not be Ballo? Our triggerman is still same dude. Eluvatar's been off by ten seconds or more.

For Hippiedom, you guys were also way off and that was before variance was put in. If more effort is put into setting up your times, I promise you guys will improve.

[Mallorea and Riva]

You have the Admin telling you it isn't variance! What more proof do you need?

How can we have decent times, then Ballo puts in the variance change and we're continually off by a lot... and it not be Ballo? Our triggerman is still the same dude. Eluvatar's been off by ten seconds or more.

The UDL was never noted for having good times for liberations. Just putting that out there. You were dabbling with bots for awhile there. Maybe your triggering method sucks. Maybe Elu is off his game. Maybe your troops aren't fast and you aren't adjusting accordingly. We're going through the times right now, and it looks like a large number of your troops may have missed update. You jumped in close to update time, some of you missed. I'll have hard numbers soon. I'm making my lackey put them together.