Variance added

[Kanaia]

Halc, the goal isn't to take the current clock game away, it's to replace it.

[General Halcones]

Indeed, which is why there's going to be a summit to discuss ideas like WA delegate re-elections which I suggested. Before then, don't touch the variance situation any further - it's working fine enough now.

[[violet]]

Some defenders seem to be implying that raiders should not be using every means available to win, as if some tactics were out of bounds because they unbalance the game. If those tactics are possible, then the game is unbalanced, through no fault of the raiders. To expect us to hold back to give defenders a better chance to beat us is a pretty ridiculous proposal.

Worth quoting again. It seems pretty clear that on the whole, raiders are motivated by how successfully they can raid, and success usually means recognition for accomplishments. If you can tag-raid 41 regions in one night and everyone will say, OMG, 41 regions, and meanwhile planning a long stealth raid has a low chance of success and not many people will care even if you pull it off, then people will concentrate on tag raiding. Even if the actual process of stealth raiding a region (and beating defenders rather than the clock) is more fun than tag-raiding, that's not enough motivation.

If there were a feature like Annex that provided visible rewards and a leaderboard of sorts for holding regions, not just tag-raiding them, we might expect to see a shift in raider activity.

At the moment I think we have a de factor leaderboard for tag raiding because everyone knows what the record is. (It has probably just suffered a blow because the new variance makes it unlikely that anyone can beat the record, but still, there can be a new post-variance record.) Whereas the records for who captured which region are more qualitative than quantitative: people remember the really significant invasions, but there's not the same clearly visible measure of success.

[Unibot II]

Ermm, new problem? Every time the raiders move, defenders tonight have noticed like significant choppiness and lag to the point where it's hard to steady your click. Hell, my browser was half exploding every time they moved.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Did any raiders experience this? I had some lag but nothing extreme (and it may have just been on my side since it only happened once).

[Weed]

Take away the current game, and there shall be no R/D game left. A lot of us would stop playing the game, and it would become very quiet and boring.

Has been said many of times, and yet, at the end of the day the world keeps spinning. As of now there's really no point to being a defender. The game is raiders v. the clock. Military gameplay is declining because of this trend, and it is only advancing.

[Tramiar]

Did any raiders experience this? I had some lag but nothing extreme (and it may have just been on my side since it only happened once).

Mine was messed up and lagged, but I'm assuming it was just my computer, since it happens most times. It doesn't like MSN. Or multitasking.

[Sichuan Pepper]

I imagine when the Annex feature is implemented it will be along similar lines of the raids currently being run. Little to no quality and invaders going for quantity. Giving them a way to further tag regions will only make more problems.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I imagine when the Annex feature is implemented it will be along similar lines of the raids currently being run. Little to no quality and invaders going for quantity. Giving them a way to further tag regions will only make more problems.

You say as we hold Ohio, Hell, and Hippiedom, while tag raids are occurring.

[General Halcones]

I experienced no "choppiness" through the update - I found it to be a very clean update with no lag and no complaints from my troops either. Must be your internet.

Due to the added variance, we tended to move earlier than usual - seeing that defenders weren't a threat anyway. However, we later moved 5 seconds before the predicted time, which was fine. It takes a lot of triggers to get accurate timings, and a lot of work.

The truth is, even if raiders are holding regions, we can still tag raid. Only takes 2, and we can always pop back into the region we're holding just before it updates. Seeing that it brings in so many hits, with such a high success rate, we go for it.

I do agree, new features should be made to help shift this, but I doubt it will have much effect. Tag raiding is just part of the game now - my advice to defenders would be to focus on the big raids, and forget about the many small ones. We always leave them when we take them, so you can just detag them shortly after.

[Sichuan Pepper]

@ Mal
Oh yes.......I take it that a trigger was not used in all of those to allow for precision insertion then Mal? There was a reasonable window open for defenders to deploy? (by reasonable I DO mean not less than 5 seconds)

@ Halc
You all use the same tactic and switch WA during update. Funny enough you all look the same Distinguished who is a real invader and who is a graffiti artist is not possible

[Unibot II]

I experienced no "choppiness" through the update - I found it to be a very clean update with no lag and no complaints from my troops either. Must be your internet.

I brought it up because all four of us noticed our browsers were lagging immensely just at the same time as you were moving.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Take away the current game, and there shall be no R/D game left. A lot of us would stop playing the game, and it would become very quiet and boring.

Has been said many of times, and yet, at the end of the day the world keeps spinning. As of now there's really no point to being a defender. The game is raiders v. the clock. Military gameplay is declining because of this trend, and it is only advancing.

Thats easy to solve. Just make Annexations work the same way as embassies- 4 days needed to consolidate control, and 4 days needed to cancel that control. This means that not only do defenders get a window to take the place back, but raiders get a window in which they can un-liberate the region, too.

[Gest]

@ Mal
Oh yes.......I take it that a trigger was not used in all of those to allow for precision insertion then Mal? There was a reasonable window open for defenders to deploy? (by reasonable I DO mean not less than 5 seconds)

15 seconds window in Ohio I believe. Not sure how much of that time was variance.

[Mallorea and Riva]

@ Mal
Oh yes.......I take it that a trigger was not used in all of those to allow for precision insertion then Mal? There was a reasonable window open for defenders to deploy? (by reasonable I DO mean not less than 5 seconds)

You had 13 seconds in Hell from our first jumper until update.

The Most Serene Republic of United Judaica relocated from Hippiedom to Hell
12:11:39 AM

The Republic of HellSatans seized the position of Hell WA Delegate from The Satanic Empire of Big Jim P
12:11:52 AM

[Ballotonia]

The artificial variance added isn't even remotely that large, so this must be actual 'natural' system lag. Sometimes that happens, in the old days it happened all the time.

Ballotonia

[General Halcones]

Defenders also had plenty of time to stop our raids too, in most cases. Not sure why you all lagged up. Unfortunate.

[Cromarty]

To expect us to hold back to give defenders a better chance to beat us is a pretty ridiculous proposal.

Huh, seems like it was exactly what raiders were expecting when defenders were using the 'magic endo'.

[Tramiar]

To expect us to hold back to give defenders a better chance to beat us is a pretty ridiculous proposal.

Huh, seems like it was exactly what raiders were expecting when defenders were using the 'magic endo'.

We've been over this. Many times. Isn't there a saying about a dead horse that applies here?

The 'magic endo' was something that shouldn't have been there. It was a bug, it got fixed. And I believe there were many fewer raiders complaining about that than defenders whining about how we do our best.

[Weed]

Huh, seems like it was exactly what raiders were expecting when defenders were using the 'magic endo'.

We've been over this. Many times. Isn't there a saying about a dead horse that applies here?

The 'magic endo' was something that shouldn't have been there. It was a bug, it got fixed. And I believe there were many fewer raiders complaining about that than defenders whining about how we do our best.

*giggles* We are saying the system in place is not ideal for military gameplay, and has discouraged activity heavily on one side, which is never good. To compare that to the display that was made then... heh. Anyway, yes, dead horse, and I thought the endos should be removed anyway (though I managed not to throw a hissy fit over it, also).

And to point out, I don't think anyone is saying raiders shouldn't trigger raiding. At least I'm not saying that. If they think anyone is impressed that they are able to press a button at the exact moment they are prompted to and have such a small window that no one could stop them, it's completely fine and dandy to do so. My only point, is that as long as you can use a trigger to know within a few seconds of when you need to move, defending is not going to happen very often.

[Tramiar]

We are saying the system in place is not ideal for military gameplay, and has discouraged activity heavily on one side, which is never good.

That's what everyone is saying. And I'm not sure I've seen anyone disagree with it (except possibly a couple people I haven't even seen involved in gameplay in quite a while, if at all). So what's new?

Though since defenders are always claiming that they can defend a region if they're given more than 5 seconds to do so, they had the time to defend both Ohio and Hell, and failed to do so. That has nothing to do with the "But we can't defend anything, because you move 2 seconds before update!" argument. Unless you're saying defenders can't move in 13 or 15 seconds. In which case I'd know you're lying, because I've seen them do it.

[Weed]

We are saying the system in place is not ideal for military gameplay, and has discouraged activity heavily on one side, which is never good.

That's what everyone is saying. And I'm not sure I've seen anyone disagree with it (except possibly a couple people I haven't even seen involved in gameplay in quite a while, if at all). So what's new?

Though since defenders are always claiming that they can defend a region if they're given more than 5 seconds to do so, they had the time to defend both Ohio and Hell, and failed to do so. That has nothing to do with the "But we can't defend anything, because you move 2 seconds before update!" argument. Unless you're saying defenders can't move in 13 or 15 seconds. In which case I'd know you're lying, because I've seen them do it.

That's in general the sentiment I'm getting, we're all arguing the same points and positions here. It needs to change. For some reason the raiders seem to think we can't continue to point out that it needs to change until the summit though, which really makes no sense.

Hmm, it depends somewhat. I think if we were consistently given 5 second windows yes that would totally be possible. But if we get 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-5 that's still not interesting and we're still bored and generally useless during the updates. Which causes fewer updaters. Which causes even fewer possible defenses. The UDL has done a good job IMO having other things to do at updates so that updaters stick around. But even in my memory, I recall having far more updaters.

Basically, if every single person that is online has a 5 second window, no, we probably won't make it. But if we get enough shots and things get fun again I think certainly that enough updaters would be on line for us to start having more defenses again.

[Tramiar]

That's what everyone is saying. And I'm not sure I've seen anyone disagree with it (except possibly a couple people I haven't even seen involved in gameplay in quite a while, if at all). So what's new?

Though since defenders are always claiming that they can defend a region if they're given more than 5 seconds to do so, they had the time to defend both Ohio and Hell, and failed to do so. That has nothing to do with the "But we can't defend anything, because you move 2 seconds before update!" argument. Unless you're saying defenders can't move in 13 or 15 seconds. In which case I'd know you're lying, because I've seen them do it.

That's in general the sentiment I'm getting, we're all arguing the same points and positions here. It needs to change. For some reason the raiders seem to think we can't continue to point out that it needs to change until the summit though, which really makes no sense.

Hmm, it depends somewhat. I think if we were consistently given 5 second windows yes that would totally be possible. But if we get 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-5 that's still not interesting and we're still bored and generally useless during the updates. Which causes fewer updaters. Which causes even fewer possible defenses. The UDL has done a good job IMO having other things to do at updates so that updaters stick around. But even in my memory, I recall having far more updaters.

Basically, if every single person that is online has a 5 second window, no, we probably won't make it. But if we get enough shots and things get fun again I think certainly that enough updaters would be on line for us to start having more defenses again.

Because what is the point in pointing out something that's already been pointed out and agreed on. It's like saying "It's raining today" 'yep' *five minutes later* "It's still raining, in case you haven't noticed" 'so it is..' That is what makes no sense.

I can't speak for TBR. But I don't remember the last raid TBH did where we had a timing of 2 seconds. So where are defenders? Whining about TBR, not stopping the rest of us.

[Weed]

Because what is the point in pointing out something that's already been pointed out and agreed on. It's like saying "It's raining today" 'yep' *five minutes later* "It's still raining, in case you haven't noticed" 'so it is..' That is what makes no sense.

Yup, I'd tend to agree it isn't the most interesting discussions. But that's how technical discussions always go in NS, possibly because we're used to having to say things over and over before anything is done. Recruitment scripts, influence (and the various suggested or implemented tweaks to influence), Liberations/password griefing, the separation of voting queues for GA and SC, non-exec founders, making the no-SC/Ga Campaigning tags what makes it illegal to contact delegates vs. the WFE, and numerous numerous other debates I've watched/been a part of only reach resolution or get addressed after ages and ages of 'me too' and 'I agree please address this' type posts.

I can't speak for TBR. But I don't remember the last raid TBH did where we had a timing of 2 seconds. So where are defenders? Whining about TBR, not stopping the rest of us.

I admit I haven't been around so much in the immediate past so I can do nothing but take your word for it. I don't have the tools to tell me anything other than 'seconds ago' even if I was around.

[Ballotonia]

But that's how technical discussions always go in NS, possibly because we're used to having to say things over and over before anything is done. Recruitment scripts, influence (and the various suggested or implemented tweaks to influence), Liberations/password griefing, the separation of voting queues for GA and SC, non-exec founders, making the no-SC/Ga Campaigning tags what makes it illegal to contact delegates vs. the WFE, and numerous numerous other debates I've watched/been a part of only reach resolution or get addressed after ages and ages of 'me too' and 'I agree please address this' type posts.

Admin time is limited, and as such the speed at which things get done isn't high. That's ok, most suggestions shouldn't be implemented anyway
Other reasons why it's good to take some time:
- Give all involved a chance to voice their opinions. Not everyone reads the forum 5 times a day.
- Side-effects are easily overlooked. At least take some time to figure out the obvious ones which can then be avoided.
- The idea may be good. But maybe next week someone posts an idea which is even better. And hopefully easier to implement.
- Something happening a certain way one particular day doesn't mean a game code change is needed the next day. It may be random, or a one-time thing. Not everything is a problem with the game code.
- Allow players the time to solve problems on their own. See how the game develops, don't overdo trying to steer it since then people will just be sitting back waiting for the next game change instead of playing the game.
- The game should be playing the game as is, getting Admin to change something isn't part of the game.

Ballotonia