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Nation name release!

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Mockia
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Founded: Dec 27, 2017
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Postby Mockia » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:29 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Scottish Socialists wrote:Yeah, there’s a nation called “Ireland” that was created and soiled on the same day.
There should be some soiled names to be released.

But then, how to ensure that it isn't the player who soiled it before that founds the new version?

How about moderators discuss the potential of deat-ed accounts to have their names rehabilitated after 5 years (for example, if they're bad words or if the nation's name is associated with consistent rule breaking.)? That way, it'll work as normal. The offending players would be long gone anyways, so that will help reduce potentially excellent nation names being unusable because somebody did bad things with those names.
Last edited by Mockia on Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Frisbeeteria
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Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:38 am

Mockia wrote:How about moderators discuss the potential of deat-ed accounts to have their names rehabilitated after 5 years

I don't think you understand the scale of the solution you're proposing. I don't have exact figures, but extrapolating the numbers based on current deletion rates would give us several hundred thousand deleted nations. I've personally deleted almost 11,000 nations in the last two years. 23 other moderators / admins have nation deletions in their portfolios. I have no interest in scouring that list, either solo or in a group.

Feel free to search the Archives for old threads about the Mod Olympics. You can probably turn up some additional numbers there.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:06 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Mockia wrote:How about moderators discuss the potential of deat-ed accounts to have their names rehabilitated after 5 years

I don't think you understand the scale of the solution you're proposing. I don't have exact figures, but extrapolating the numbers based on current deletion rates would give us several hundred thousand deleted nations. I've personally deleted almost 11,000 nations in the last two years. 23 other moderators / admins have nation deletions in their portfolios. I have no interest in scouring that list, either solo or in a group.

Feel free to search the Archives for old threads about the Mod Olympics. You can probably turn up some additional numbers there.

I got bored, adding up all the old Mod Olympics gave a number of 90,782 nation deletions
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Frisbeeteria
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Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:01 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:I got bored, adding up all the old Mod Olympics gave a number of 90,782 nation deletions

There have been close to 40,000 since the last Mod Olympics, and the Mod Olympics didn't always exist. So somewhere between 100k and 200k is probably about right. Not interested in parsing that list, thanks. It's not something we could generate instantly in any event. We've got over 5 million dead nations to grep. I can think of better uses of admin and server time.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:10 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:I got bored, adding up all the old Mod Olympics gave a number of 90,782 nation deletions

There have been close to 40,000 since the last Mod Olympics, and the Mod Olympics didn't always exist. So somewhere between 100k and 200k is probably about right. Not interested in parsing that list, thanks. It's not something we could generate instantly in any event. We've got over 5 million dead nations to grep. I can think of better uses of admin and server time.

Mhmm, totally agree about better uses of mod/admin/server time.
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Myuta
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Founded: Jan 21, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Myuta » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:38 am

That moment when you should have read the whole thread.

I think 500,000,000 is still too low, I think it should be tied to age. Say a nation is locked for 1 year after ceasing to exist per 100,000,000 of population and a ceiling of 3 billion. Promised I'd file a help request to someone then read the whole thread after I'd posted the help request, so she's not going to be happy. I hope the administrators will take another look at the limits here to establish if there is actually going to be a reasonable prospect of them returning.

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Ghost Land
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Founded: Feb 14, 2014
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:55 am

Myuta wrote:That moment when you should have read the whole thread.

I think 500,000,000 is still too low, I think it should be tied to age. Say a nation is locked for 1 year after ceasing to exist per 100,000,000 of population and a ceiling of 3 billion. Promised I'd file a help request to someone then read the whole thread after I'd posted the help request, so she's not going to be happy. I hope the administrators will take another look at the limits here to establish if there is actually going to be a reasonable prospect of them returning.

Just for the record, I have read this entire thread at least twice now; most of it is people posting whatever cool name they got back in the first few months of this program.

Personally, I think 3 billion is too high, even if it does take 30 years for the name to be re-released. It takes almost a year and a half of consistent use to reach 3 billion people, and I wouldn't want some guy to have used his nation from, say, 2002-2004, had it reach 2.989 billion people, rediscover the site in 2036, try logging into his nation, and find its name in use by someone else. In general, if your nation ceases to exist before 500 million people, it's due to getting bored or frustrated with NS, forgetting to log into a puppet before it ceases to exist, or forgetting its password (still upset about what happened with my puppet December Land in 2014); odds are, no matter the circumstances, that you don't particularly care about the nation or its name, and if you did, you'd probably create another one with the same name when it's freed back up anyway.

Personally, back when the cap was only 250 million, I always found this funny:
Deleted nation Crap Britain
Founded: Fri Jul 1 2005
Last activity: Mon Oct 3 2005
Population: 498 million
Reserved: This name was used by a former nation of significant size.

But now that the cap is 500 million, alas, it displays that name as "soiled".
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Myuta
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Founded: Jan 21, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Myuta » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:25 am

If you're not back after 30 years...would you even remember nationstates existed? :rofl:

I picked 3 billion out of the air as I don't have the relevant stats to find the critical mass. What number would you say is about right for the ceiling? The reason I suggested the ceiling was to establish a 'significant size' as it currently stands in nationstates, maybe it should be lower.

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:27 am

Myuta wrote:If you're not back after 30 years...would you even remember nationstates existed? :rofl:

I picked 3 billion out of the air as I don't have the relevant stats to find the critical mass. What number would you say is about right for the ceiling? The reason I suggested the ceiling was to establish a 'significant size' as it currently stands in nationstates, maybe it should be lower.

A suggestion that's been raised by several people on different occasions in the past is that we should keep the 500 million threshold for nations that have "only" been inactive for 5 years but then it should rise to 600 million for 6 years, 700 million for 7 years, etc, to a final limit of 1 billion for nations that have been inactive for 10 years or longer..
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Ghost Land
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Founded: Feb 14, 2014
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:34 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Myuta wrote:If you're not back after 30 years...would you even remember nationstates existed? :rofl:

I picked 3 billion out of the air as I don't have the relevant stats to find the critical mass. What number would you say is about right for the ceiling? The reason I suggested the ceiling was to establish a 'significant size' as it currently stands in nationstates, maybe it should be lower.

A suggestion that's been raised by several people on different occasions in the past is that we should keep the 500 million threshold for nations that have "only" been inactive for 5 years but then it should rise to 600 million for 6 years, 700 million for 7 years, etc, to a final limit of 1 billion for nations that have been inactive for 10 years or longer..

I've seen this suggestion too and personally I've always been in full support of it, though I'm not sure how much extra work this would be for the techies.
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Myuta
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Founded: Jan 21, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Myuta » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:21 am

One billion instead of three, well that's fair enough.

The grep function should easily be able to find all the nations that are inactive prior to x day x month x year. Then it's just a case of comparing how old they are to their nationsize, if they are are older than 6 years but have less than 600m population, then it would become eligible for release. Though that's really a pruning mechanism. If it were me I wouldn't publicly disclose the names and just wait for someone to want it, they'll make themselves known soon enough. That way something can be built into the "new sign up" where it checks the nation name, has it ceased to exist, if so how old is it in years is population greater than 6 * 1mil. If so, name is usable otherwise. The software can be run client side (with Javascript) meaning minimal processing power required.

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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:09 am

Myuta wrote:One billion instead of three, well that's fair enough.


I still don't see the need for a cap if we have a sliding scale where nations are reserved an extra year for every 100 million above 500.

If NS is still around 155 years from now, and someone else wants to use the name "Nazi Flower Power," they should be allowed. It's not like I will be coming back for it.

The grep function should easily be able to find all the nations that are inactive prior to x day x month x year. Then it's just a case of comparing how old they are to their nationsize, if they are are older than 6 years but have less than 600m population, then it would become eligible for release. Though that's really a pruning mechanism. If it were me I wouldn't publicly disclose the names and just wait for someone to want it, they'll make themselves known soon enough. That way something can be built into the "new sign up" where it checks the nation name, has it ceased to exist, if so how old is it in years is population greater than 6 * 1mil. If so, name is usable otherwise. The software can be run client side (with Javascript) meaning minimal processing power required.


The techies already know how to implement name release.

Why would we want to get rid of the Boneyard when the work to set it up has already been done?
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Myuta
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Founded: Jan 21, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Myuta » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:16 am

The reason for the cap itself is a backstop, is administrative in nature. I can understand why Violet put the cap in to begin with and I see no reason to remove it, just adjust it to reflect the growth of Nationstates. I agree with you wholeheartedly that in 135 years after ceasing to exist someone should be able to use that name.

and... THAT WAS YOU!?! :blink:

Also, I'm in no way suggesting the removal of the boneyard. I'm just saying that there's no need to actually go through it and release the names when there might not actually be any demand for said name.

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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:45 am

Myuta wrote:Also, I'm in no way suggesting the removal of the boneyard. I'm just saying that there's no need to actually go through it and release the names when there might not actually be any demand for said name.


I'm not sure how you think the current system works, then. The Boneyard is just a page where people can look up if a name is available. If someone's using it to look up a name, then apparently there is some demand for that name. Or at least interest in it.
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Myuta
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Founded: Jan 21, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Myuta » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:07 pm

From how it was the Op is phrased, it implies that a list of names is publicly pointed out. Rather than being something that a member would have to proactively check.
Last edited by Myuta on Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Frisbeeteria
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Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:15 pm

Myuta wrote:From how it was the Op is phrased, it implies that a list of names is publicly pointed out.

That post was made 7 years ago, and we've accumulated nearly 100 pages of discussion without people being confused. As for me, I don't see how it implies any such thing.

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Ghost Land
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Founded: Feb 14, 2014
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:01 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Myuta wrote:Also, I'm in no way suggesting the removal of the boneyard. I'm just saying that there's no need to actually go through it and release the names when there might not actually be any demand for said name.


I'm not sure how you think the current system works, then. The Boneyard is just a page where people can look up if a name is available. If someone's using it to look up a name, then apparently there is some demand for that name. Or at least interest in it.

I also use the boneyard just out of curiosity or wanting to know someone's founded or CTE date; it comes in incredibly handy for stuff like that too.

And by the way, can mods see who's searching for what in the boneyard at what times? If so, I'd be scared to see all the funky stuff I've typed in there over the years. :p
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Jar Wattinree
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:05 pm

Ghost Land wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
I'm not sure how you think the current system works, then. The Boneyard is just a page where people can look up if a name is available. If someone's using it to look up a name, then apparently there is some demand for that name. Or at least interest in it.

I also use the boneyard just out of curiosity or wanting to know someone's founded or CTE date; it comes in incredibly handy for stuff like that too.

And by the way, can mods see who's searching for what in the boneyard at what times? If so, I'd be scared to see all the funky stuff I've typed in there over the years. :p

I typically use the Boneyard to see if the names I want have been used already.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:07 pm

Ghost Land wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
I'm not sure how you think the current system works, then. The Boneyard is just a page where people can look up if a name is available. If someone's using it to look up a name, then apparently there is some demand for that name. Or at least interest in it.

I also use the boneyard just out of curiosity or wanting to know someone's founded or CTE date; it comes in incredibly handy for stuff like that too.

And by the way, can mods see who's searching for what in the boneyard at what times? If so, I'd be scared to see all the funky stuff I've typed in there over the years. :p


I don't see that stuff. Not sure if admins have access to it, but it doesn't seem like there'd be much reason to track it. I doubt anybody has seen what you've typed in.
Last edited by USS Monitor on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ghost Land
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:45 pm

I also had another suggestion: what about permanent reservation of names of nations currently in the top 1000 for challenge points (i.e. as of right now, any nation with 26,846 points or more)? A few people such as You ruined it Jim somehow managed to reach extremely high positions in short amounts of time, with their nations still ceasing to exist with only a couple hundred million people; the current #1 guy (Asshai Under The Shadow) reached the top with only 148 million people IIRC and has since ceased to exist (though with over a billion).

This may also solve a question I have about how things work: if you create a nation with the same name as a previous one, do the other nation's challenge points go bye-bye? (The challenge game was introduced in November 2012, so I'm assuming this would eventually be a problem if it hasn't been one already.)

Is my suggestion feasible, or am I truly never going to be notable for anything except my nation's size?
Last edited by Ghost Land on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Frisbeeteria
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Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:25 pm

Ghost Land wrote:what about permanent reservation of names of nations currently in the top 1000 for challenge points

I personally can't see giving special status to people who play the Challenge Game. We don't do that for the stats leaderboard, which is a much more integral part of the game. The people who earn special status via issues or WA proposals earned their reservations via inter-player collaboration (either with the Issues Team or via a site-wide vote of WA members). The Challenge game is solitary, not collaborative. I'm not seeing the value.

Ghost Land wrote:if you create a nation with the same name as a previous one, do the other nation's challenge points go bye-bye?

I have no idea where and how Challenge points are stored. No one has, to my knowledge, ever asked about that before. It's certainly not a problem that needs solving.

If 'Examplestan' expires and a new one is created 5 years later, the original becomes an archived nation called 'Examplestan~1'. However, some things (RMB posts for example) still maintain the same old name. The new 'Examplestan' would show up in mod view as having the old 'Examplestan's posts. My guess is that the same applies for Challenge points ... but it's purely a guess. It's literally never been asked before, and I've had no reason to investigate it.

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Cimmerien
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Founded: Feb 07, 2016
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Postby Cimmerien » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:05 pm

I’m curious to know: what if the owner of an former nation with a reserved name doesn’t return?
Last edited by Cimmerien on Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Frisbeeteria
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Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:08 pm

Cimmerien wrote:I’m curious to know: what if the owner of an former nation with a reserved name doesn’t return?

Nothing. If it meets the criteria to stay reserved, the name remains unavailable to everyone.

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Nat Soto
Civilian
 
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Founded: Oct 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Ancient Nation, Name Reserved

Postby Nat Soto » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:57 pm

Hi there. I have been wanting this name "Red Finland" for a new nation awhile now, but it has been reserved because 13 years ago (the last time it existed) it had over 500 million. There was no email linked to the nation either so whomever once used the nation 13 years ago, will never get back on if they forgot the password to resurrect the nation. Is there any way an exception could be made for nation name problems like this?
Last edited by Nat Soto on Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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