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Glitch being abused

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Kshrlmnt
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Postby Kshrlmnt » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:01 pm

Awww, now it's harder to see which fendas are coming!

But the code answered my question and showed me where [violet] was! (kinda)
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Senestrum
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Postby Senestrum » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:02 pm

The entire "gameplay" thing is itself an unintended exploitation of the region mechanics.

It seems hilariously hypocritical to whine about the exploitation of a glitch.
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Mahaj
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Postby Mahaj » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:03 pm

Senestrum wrote:The entire "gameplay" thing is itself an unintended exploitation of the region mechanics.

It seems hilariously hypocritical to whine about the exploitation of a glitch.

Y'know... technically you're right. Max said that in a maxchat.

so now the raiders are whining about a glitch in a glitch.
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<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:04 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:after years of knowing it's there and not doing anything

I hadn't heard of this one before today. It's not the same as pre-endorsing non-WA nations, or endorsing a bunch of other nations in the same regions and moving together.

Anyway, if it's a good thing to be able to endorse nations in other regions, make a case for that. But it's clearly no good when something is legal and possible but only via URL manipulation.

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Mahaj
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Postby Mahaj » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:05 pm

[violet] wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:after years of knowing it's there and not doing anything

I hadn't heard of this one before today. It's not the same as pre-endorsing non-WA nations, or endorsing a bunch of other nations in the same regions and moving together.

Anyway, if it's a good thing to be able to endorse nations in other regions, make a case for that. But it's clearly no good when something is legal and possible but only via URL manipulation.

Violet, there is a way without URL manipulation. I'd love to show you, but I don't want to make it public knowledge. If there's some way I could contact you and show it to you, i'd gladly do so.

The reason we should be able to is that it allows us to shave time off our movements. Just a second, mind, but it could be important in some circumstances.
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<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:06 pm

[violet] wrote:Because it's a bug. You're not supposed to be able to endorse nations in other regions. The game says that in a few places.

I suppose I should attempt my argument about the difference between an endorsement and a pre-endorsement, which is the legalistic defense here.
I agree with the following statement: One should not be able to give an endorsement to someone and have it be recognized by the game unless they are in the same region as you are. That having been said, the pre-endorsement does not give an endorsement to a nation. It merely acts as a "trigger" mechanism, the game validates the endorsement once the nation moves to the target's region, thereby fulfilling the requirement for a valid endorsement.
[violet] wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:after years of knowing it's there and not doing anything

I hadn't heard of this one before today. It's not the same as pre-endorsing non-WA nations, or endorsing a bunch of other nations in the same regions and moving together.

Anyway, if it's a good thing to be able to endorse nations in other regions, make a case for that. But it's clearly no good when something is legal and possible but only via URL manipulation.


But that has been allowed for seven years! What on earth has caused the sudden decision that this is evil? No rules are being broken! The security of the rest of the rules are assured since any other possible manipulations which would be malicious are blocked, specifically leaving this non-malicious method alone.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:08 pm

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that the rules are not being broken. This is merely another aspect of raider/defender gameplay, and is simply following the tradition that raiders first started when they realized that the gameplay could be manipulated when they began moving into regions, siezing delegacies, etc.
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Kshrlmnt
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Postby Kshrlmnt » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:32 pm

Mahaj wrote:
[violet] wrote:I hadn't heard of this one before today. It's not the same as pre-endorsing non-WA nations, or endorsing a bunch of other nations in the same regions and moving together.

Anyway, if it's a good thing to be able to endorse nations in other regions, make a case for that. But it's clearly no good when something is legal and possible but only via URL manipulation.

Violet, there is a way without URL manipulation. I'd love to show you, but I don't want to make it public knowledge. If there's some way I could contact you and show it to you, i'd gladly do so.

In the interests of being fair... I'm fairly sure I know the way Mahaj is talking about (though I haven't had a chance to try it myself, so atm it's only theoretical), and if you want to contact me or vice versa, I'll spill. :P
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Koth - Last Monday at 9:38 AM
I get sad when I offend elindra because I don't intend to yet I will do absolutely nothing to prevent it

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Improving Wordiness
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Ex-Nation

Postby Improving Wordiness » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:41 pm

The fact is defenders are only looking a part of the picture. I am in the "Not a good thing camp"
Please fix this bug.
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Glen-Rhodes
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Postby Glen-Rhodes » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:45 pm

Improving Wordiness wrote:The fact is defenders are only looking a part of the picture. I am in the "Not a good thing camp"

Hm? What the big picture? Raiders seem to think the exploit would have killed the game, but that was thoroughly debunked. Topid raised security concerns. Granted I've never seen the NationStates source code, but I am knowledgeable in these matters, and I can't think of any security exploits. :\

What this honestly boils down to is that this exploit gave defenders a small advantage of not having to manage two web pages and do refreshes in a matter of seconds. Defenders are naturally disadvantaged in NationStates, simply because defending is reactionary. Raiders can plan and defender movements are easily tracked. A little bit of an edge in timing was useful. It wasn't an exploit that made liberations fool-proof, but it did make things slightly easier.

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Kshrlmnt
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Postby Kshrlmnt » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:56 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:Defenders are naturally disadvantaged in NationStates, simply because defending is reactionary.

One thing I like about raiding.

Glen-Rhodes wrote:Raiders can plan and defender movements are easily tracked.

Don't have to be easily tracked. Though this made them even easier.
Elindra Kshrlmnt Dion Diablessa
Lady of Loquacity and Archempress of Unknown

Mistress of the lolcats, Secretary of NS Disney, Author of Ask Ellie, Victim of the illustrious Flag Thief, Member of PETI
She whose name can too be pronounced

Koth - Last Monday at 9:38 AM
I get sad when I offend elindra because I don't intend to yet I will do absolutely nothing to prevent it

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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:59 pm

5 pages on this crap? Really? Is this glitch really so goddamn important?

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Joshuahood
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Postby Joshuahood » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:05 pm

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:5 pages on this crap? Really? Is this glitch really so goddamn important?


I don't really know or care about it.
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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:09 pm

Joshuahood wrote:
The Murtunian Tribes wrote:5 pages on this crap? Really? Is this glitch really so goddamn important?


I don't really know or care about it.

Indeed. We can all rest easy knowing that this has been put to rest now.

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Unibot II
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Postby Unibot II » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:14 pm

[violet] wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:after years of knowing it's there and not doing anything

I hadn't heard of this one before today. It's not the same as pre-endorsing non-WA nations, or endorsing a bunch of other nations in the same regions and moving together.

Anyway, if it's a good thing to be able to endorse nations in other regions, make a case for that. But it's clearly no good when something is legal and possible but only via URL manipulation.


This method has been used for years, it's older than dirt. When you found people were viewing the administration pages of regions via URL manipulation, you offered us an automatic way (although it annoys me we can't view the bbcode of a WFE anymore) -- could we follow this precedent?

Recently with newer browsers, the trick hardly requires URL manipulation.. more like a few clicks of a button. I can't share the details in public, but would share with you my magic-endorsement tutorial that I wrote for defenders.
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Improving Wordiness
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Postby Improving Wordiness » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:22 pm

and that worked out just great didn't it Unibot? All it did was give invaders a tool to pinpoint update time. Please do not give invaders yet another tool. This will impact on defending regions.
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Topid
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Postby Topid » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:33 pm

Unibot II wrote:When you found people were viewing the administration pages of regions via URL manipulation, you offered us an automatic way (although it annoys me we can't view the bbcode of a WFE anymore) -- could we follow this precedent?

You can still view the bbcode for WFEs, you just have to manipu.. err.. change the url from:
http://www.nationstates.net/page=region ... t_abbaddon
to
http://www.nationstates.net/page=region ... t_abbaddon
Last edited by Topid on Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Commander Halcones
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Postby Commander Halcones » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:11 am

This manipulation of URLs should seriously be stopped. It was never intended in the first place.

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Ballotonia
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Postby Ballotonia » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:15 am

Commander Halcones wrote:This manipulation of URLs should seriously be stopped. It was never intended in the first place.


Invading should seriously be stopped. It was never intended in the first place.

Ballotonia
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Mahaj
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Postby Mahaj » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:18 am

Improving Wordiness wrote:and that worked out just great didn't it Unibot? All it did was give invaders a tool to pinpoint update time. Please do not give invaders yet another tool. This will impact on defending regions.

It doesn't give them a tool to pinpoint update time.
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<Koth> I'm still going by the assumption that Mahaj is Unibot's kid brother or something
Kandarin(Naivetry): You're going to have a great NS career ahead of you if you want it, Mahaj. :)
<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Commander Halcones
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Postby Commander Halcones » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:30 am

Ballotonia wrote:
Commander Halcones wrote:This manipulation of URLs should seriously be stopped. It was never intended in the first place.


Invading should seriously be stopped. It was never intended in the first place.

Ballotonia


Oh? Really?

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Ballotonia
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Postby Ballotonia » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:21 am

Commander Halcones wrote:
Ballotonia wrote:
Invading should seriously be stopped. It was never intended in the first place.

Ballotonia


Oh? Really?


Yes, really.

See: http://www.nationstates.net/pages/MaxChat2.html (cleaned-up excerpt below)
April 17, 2004
<PopeHope> Max, how do you feel about the user created game within your game that we call invading and defending?
<Max> First, I should admit that when I created NationStates, it never even occurred to me that people would play the invasion game
<Max> It seems obvious now, but then keep in mind I thought NS would be an obscure little site that nobody much would visit
<Max> In a way, invasions are simply an extension of regional politics... or at least, they are when done right
<Max> It does, and I definitely approve of invasions when done right
<Max> The issue we had -- and which emerged pretty early -- was people who would crash into an old, established region, and trash it
<Max> I got all these anguished e-mails from people who had played the game for months, who had set up regional hierarchies, etc, and were watching it get spammed out by griefers
<Max> Clearly, I want to protect long-term players from griefers
<Max> And so we got Regional Control
<Max> ...which, of course, added a whole new layer to the invasion game, since you could eject people now
<Max> It's been tough to find the right balance between allowing invasions as a legitimate political tool, and preventing griefing
<Max> But that's my aim


So, it is not without precedent that something unintended was approved of anyway. Feel free to argue against it ;)

Ballotonia
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The Republic of Lanos
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Republic of Lanos » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:00 am

Reactions from people on the sides:
Raiders: woot! now we can snipe defenders easily! Let's raid their homes!
Defenders: NOOOOOOO! DAMNIT now we'll lose our wars! That was one less tool to use, now they're killing us off!
:palm:

The two sides have been killing each other off since the game began. Nothing new.

Now for a more pressing question:
Is URL manipulation, regardless of who's doing it, legal?

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Sedgistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sedgistan » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:07 am

The Republic of Lanos wrote:Now for a more pressing question:
Is URL manipulation, regardless of who's doing it, legal?

This thread is about whether endorsing nations in other regions should be possible or not.

As for url manipulation, it would depend what is being done with it. Clearly, if you could hack a nation through url manipulation, it would not be legal. If there's a method if url manipulation you want to enquire about, submit a GHR with details.

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Augustus Este
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Ex-Nation

Postby Augustus Este » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:22 am

Mahaj wrote:
[violet] wrote:I hadn't heard of this one before today. It's not the same as pre-endorsing non-WA nations, or endorsing a bunch of other nations in the same regions and moving together.

Anyway, if it's a good thing to be able to endorse nations in other regions, make a case for that. But it's clearly no good when something is legal and possible but only via URL manipulation.

Violet, there is a way without URL manipulation. I'd love to show you, but I don't want to make it public knowledge. If there's some way I could contact you and show it to you, i'd gladly do so.

The reason we should be able to is that it allows us to shave time off our movements. Just a second, mind, but it could be important in some circumstances.


If this loophole "wasn't that effective" then why bother hiding how to do it?


This is just another continuation of the trend of technical oligopolies, where only a few regions have access to tools, scrips and codes that give them a boost over other regions.


This is a political simulator, not a battlefield for people's knowledge of coding.






Ballotonia wrote:
Commander Halcones wrote:This manipulation of URLs should seriously be stopped. It was never intended in the first place.


Invading should seriously be stopped. It was never intended in the first place.

Ballotonia


Invading doesn't require coding.

One of the reason's given for not banning it has been that it is within the framework of how the WA delegacy position works, and there is no technical way to differentiate between a peaceful delegacy change or an internal native conflict, and raiding.

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