Glitch being abused

[Evil Wolf]

\The pre-ban cannot be done. The coding is there, but I have been informed by others that it is blocked since it would violate game rules (or something to that effect).

Right, so that code glitch is bad and illegal, but this one is nice and cheeky. That makes sense...oh wait, no it doesn't. If ADMIN wanted us to endorse nations before entering the region, I am inclined to believe we'd have that option visibly coded into the game and not via a round about code glitch exploitation and one that carries with it some serious security problems. I'd love to hear what ADMIN has to say about this, however, especially [v].

[Mallorea and Riva]

\The pre-ban cannot be done. The coding is there, but I have been informed by others that it is blocked since it would violate game rules (or something to that effect).

Right, so that code glitch is bad and illegal, but this one is nice and cheeky. That makes sense...oh wait, no it doesn't. If ADMIN wanted us to endorse nations before entering the region, I am inclined to believe we'd have that option visibly coded into the game and not via a round about code glitch exploitation and one that carries with it some serious security problems. I'd love to hear what ADMIN has to say about this, however, especially [v].

Sigh
EW you're missing three very important facts.

1. It is a pre-endorsement. Not an actual endorsement. There is a highly important difference.
2. Sedge's statement here
3. And Ballo's statement here.

[Evil Wolf]

When the nation moves into the region it translates all the same. They are purposefully endorsing nations, no matter how you want to phrase it, without being in the region via exploiting the code, don't act like its something innocent and accidental. Don't tell me its not an "actual" endorsement because the game code certainly can't tell the difference. Justify it all you want, the end results are still the same.

[Mallorea and Riva]

When the nation moves into the region it translates all the same. They are purposefully endorsing nations, no matter how you want to phrase it, without being in the region via exploiting the code, don't act like its something innocent and accidental. Don't tell me its not an "actual" endorsement because the game code certainly can't tell the difference. Justify it all you want, the end results are still the same.

Incorrect. The game code CAN tell the difference, which is why the endorsement is only valid once the nations share a region. It is obviously not accidental, it is a legitimate method that has been approved by the moderation staff. Please list the reasons the feature should be removed, since it has already been stated that it is legal.

[Mahaj]

Right, so here is my question to defenders.

When we raiders find the code that allows us to pre-ban you guys, are ya'll going to have a small conniption fit? When does the code abuse go too far? Will it ultimately be that defenders will be endorsing pointmen and raider leads banning them before they even set foot in the region?

Where does the line get draw if not at this "pre-endorsing" tactic?

I actually tested specifically to see if a pre-ban like that would work, similar to magic endorsements. It doesn't.

[Evil Wolf]

Let me frame this in another light. Is it not true that, under normal game conditions, if a nation enters a region, endorses a nation, and leaves that "endorsement space" as I will call it, stays on the nation until update? You're quite correct in saying that the endorsement "doesn't count" but in the end its all semantics. Defenders are exploiting the code, as in typing a long ass, nation specific code into the address bar for the purpose of attaching this "endorsement space" onto a nation in a region they are not in and, in most cases, have never been in before. Under normal game conditions, you would not be able to do this with without physically moving your nation into the region. I know how the glitch works.

Again, you're diving into the semantics of the issue to blur the line while I'm trying to stay on target here and and argue that is it a code exploitation that specifically involves doing something the game would not normally allow to happen in that specific way. Its arguably dangerous, security wise, and has the potential to be exploited for other less than "legal" purposes.

The issue here is not if it is currently legal or not, I get and understand that it current is. The issue here is should the loophole in the code that allows the glitch be closed? That's why I'm waiting on ADMIN to show up and put their two cents in.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Let me frame this in another light. Is it not true that, under normal game conditions, if a nation enters a region, endorses a nation, and leaves that "endorsement space" as I will call it, stays on the nation until update? You're quite correct in saying that the endorsement "doesn't count" but in the end its all semantics. Defenders are exploiting the code, as in typing a long ass, nation specific code into the address bar for the purpose of attaching this "endorsement space" onto a nation in a region they are not in and, in most cases, have never been in before. Under normal game conditions, you would not be able to do with without physically moving your nation into the region. I know how the glitch works.

Again, you're diving into the semantics of the issue to blur the line while I'm trying to stay on target here and and argue that is it a code exploitation that specifically involves doing something the game would not normally allow to happen in that specific way. Its dangerous and has the potential to be exploited for other less than "legal" purposes.

The issue here is not if it is currently legal or not, I get and understand that it current is. The issue here is should the loophole in the code that allows the glitch be closed? That's why I'm waiting on ADMIN to show up and put their two cents in.

Just as mentioned in the 2nd page, the code could gain access to another person's nation but only if the exploiter had the specific nation's address. He could go on from there to attack other nations.

There's always a potential exploit in any code, no matter how well written it is. If this can cause enough problems (and when I say problems I mean hacking nations, screwing up the game engine, fucking up NS in general problems) the admins will seal it. For now, there are no problems.

[Mahaj]

Let me frame this in another light. Is it not true that, under normal game conditions, if a nation enters a region, endorses a nation, and leaves that "endorsement space" as I will call it, stays on the nation until update? You're quite correct in saying that the endorsement "doesn't count" but in the end its all semantics. Defenders are exploiting the code, as in typing a long ass, nation specific code into the address bar for the purpose of attaching this "endorsement space" onto a nation in a region they are not in and, in most cases, have never been in before. Under normal game conditions, you would not be able to do this with without physically moving your nation into the region. I know how the glitch works.

Again, you're diving into the semantics of the issue to blur the line while I'm trying to stay on target here and and argue that is it a code exploitation that specifically involves doing something the game would not normally allow to happen in that specific way. Its arguably dangerous, security wise, and has the potential to be exploited for other less than "legal" purposes.

The issue here is not if it is currently legal or not, I get and understand that it current is. The issue here is should the loophole in the code that allows the glitch be closed? That's why I'm waiting on ADMIN to show up and put their two cents in.

Worth noting that Tikal's 'method' is *not* the preferred method.

[Topid]

Actually maybe it should be closed... Not because it creates an unfair advantage or because it is wrong to exploit the game code in a way max said we could exploit the game code. (Both very silly arguments.) But as we see on page 2 if this becomes common place and new nations start trying to figure out how to do it, it is very likely they will share their code not knowing what it means. It probably isn't worth that.

We've already established that the delegate in the (not-so)unjust example had time to press two ban buttons. Which means all the defenders in this case had time to press one endorse button. The idea that this creates a massive unfair advantage is laughable, and is mainly the 'oh no we got beat, it must have been unfair because we're awesome' reaction. They'd have had you using the normal method, though, so moot point Tikal.

Now that update times are so uncertain from update to update, defenders are always going to need to move a few seconds early, they have time to press the button in the heat of the moment.

[Glen-Rhodes]

But as we see on page 2 if this becomes common place and new nations start trying to figure out how to do it, it is very likely they will share their code not knowing what it means. It probably isn't worth that.

That would be nobody's fault but their own. The method in the OP is outdated. All modern browsers support live DOM manipulation, so dealing with the check parameter is unnecessary. Besides, the check code isn't permanent. I'm fairly sure it changes with each login. At the very least, it's different for me viewing it in Chrome and IE.

Again, you're diving into the semantics of the issue to blur the line while I'm trying to stay on target here and and argue that is it a code exploitation that specifically involves doing something the game would not normally allow to happen in that specific way. Its arguably dangerous, security wise, and has the potential to be exploited for other less than "legal" purposes.

No, it's not dangerous "security wise." That's not arguable. If it were dangerous, it would have been fixed years ago. Magic endorsements are essentially aesthetic. They are not real endorsements. They don't affect the WA vote. They don't affect influence. And without moving into the region before update, they disappear. So, no security problems at all. I'm not even sure how else they can be used. What "less than legal" purposes can you envision?

[Evil Wolf]

If it wasn't effective there would be no reason to use it, Topid. Don't act like it doesn't give a vital edge.

[Glen-Rhodes]

If it wasn't effective there would be no reason to use it, Topid. Don't act like it doesn't give a vital edge.

There is no "vital edge" in using magic endorsements. It cuts out a single step, which takes a second, maybe two, to do. It's a convenience at most, helping cut down on relatively rare mistakes or issues, like a lagging browser. If it gave a "vital edge" to defenders, wouldn't you think defenders would have been using it all this time?

[Evil Wolf]

Again, if it wasn't effective, it wouldn't be used. It gives an edge, deny it all you want, but the facts are fairly evident.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Again, if it wasn't effective, it wouldn't be used. It gives an edge, deny it all you want, but the facts are fairly evident.

Sleeping until noon in order to stay up for the major gives an edge, too. I suppose we should ensure that everybody wakes up in the morning.

[Evil Wolf]

I don't think that's something ADMIN can rule on, Glen

[Glen-Rhodes]

I don't think that's something ADMIN can rule on, Glen

Well, you're saying that anything that gives defenders an edge needs to be banned. Sleeping in gives us just as much of an edge as magic endorsements. I fail to see why you want one banned but not the other.

[Topid]

If it wasn't effective there would be no reason to use it, Topid. Don't act like it doesn't give a vital edge.

So do you deny that in the case Tikal is mad about, if the delegate had time to click two ban buttons the defenders had time to click one endorse button.

I actually don't see the advantage at all, so if it creates a security risk there is no reason to keep it. Defenders still have to move early or risk missing the update, so I wouldn't recommend using it, because you might as well be sending the raider lead a telegram announcing your liberation. The fact he/she was online and failed to stop it is surprising.

[[violet]]

Fixed: It's no longer possible to endorse nations outside your own region.

[Mahaj]

Fixed: It's no longer possible to endorse nations outside your own region.

Why? It was a perfectly legitimate tool that helped defenders. And its been around forever.

I think that its not a glitch, and it wasn't being abused, and should be reinstated.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Fixed: It's no longer possible to endorse nations outside your own region.

Why? The consensus here seemed in favor of letting the exploit stay. It's been there for years, why change it now?

[[violet]]

Because it's a bug. You're not supposed to be able to endorse nations in other regions. The game says that in a few places.

[Mahaj]

Because it's a bug. You're not supposed to be able to endorse nations in other regions. The game says that in a few places.

But its a known 'bug', which has been known since 2004 and has been publicized since then.

why now? After one raider complained? That hardly seems fair.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Because it's a bug. You're not supposed to be able to endorse nations in other regions. The game says that in a few places.

Normally I would agree that exploits should be fixed, but after years of knowing it's there and not doing anything, it seems pretty unnecessary. Raiders are going to gloat and defenders are going to have one more thing to point to when discussing how they're always disadvantaged by the game admins. Especially considering the recent draconian and arbitrary "recruitment" rules by DLN, "fixing" this exploit only causes more problems and drama than leaving it in place.

[Oliver the Mediocre]

why now? After one raider complained? That hardly seems fair.

Because it's a bug, which implies that the program is broken in some way, and has been fixed. I've never used it. I didn't know it existed til now. I still think it's silly, because it lets you do something you shouldn't be able to do at all, and that's backed up by the game itself in most occasions. So I'm glad to see the bug is fixed.

[Mahaj]

why now? After one raider complained? That hardly seems fair.

Because it's a bug, which implies that the program is broken in some way, and has been fixed. I've never used it. I didn't know it existed til now. I still think it's silly, because it lets you do something you shouldn't be able to do at all, and that's backed up by the game itself in most occasions. So I'm glad to see the bug is fixed.

Its been used and known about for *7 years*.