Glitch being abused

[Tikal Wolf]

LWUs last two raids (Beyond the Sea, Stargate) were liberated with UDL defenders endorsing natives /Before/ they move into the region.


And this is how they do it:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MJu ... t?hl=en_US


Now, we can WA clear our applications, and acceptances into the WA.
We can move undetected to a target, and effectively get elected.

However, by the next update we'll be beaten by defenders abusing this glitch.


We cannot eject 6 people in 14 seconds, we know; that's not the issue; if they move in fast enough with pre-endorsements, it's a fair game.

This part of the game was always balanced like that; if we pre-endorse, we can move to the target later; if we endorse within the target, we need to move in earlier.


Now, the cheating has gone to an extent in which we can't hold a raid.


It's absolutely killing gameplay for us, and I request, please, please, enforce the rule:

As discussed in the FAQ, you can only endorse another nation if you are both members of the World Assembly and you are both in the same region. If this is true, the nation you want to endorse will have an "Endorse @@NATION@@" button that appears on their nation page above the telegram box. For more on endorsements, see section V.A.6., below.

Thanks.

[Unibot II]

Bahaha, what a joke. (1) This has been a legal tactic since at least 2004 (aka the Puppetmaster liberation), (2) We did nothing different with our move-time than usual, we moved ten seconds before our recorded update-time, (3) there is no balance in gameplay and you know this well -- raiders uses plants as a novelty, defenders use native leads out of necessity or respect.

Feel 'free' to use the magic endorsement method, it's not mine, but don't gripe about legitimate tactics that even out the game -- esp. when you have no reason whatsoever to complain, 14 seconds is more time to react than you usually need and I'm sure you're well aware you didn't need to eject all six defenders.

[-The West Coast-]

Like Unibot said, its a tactic that's been used for a long time. I'm sure if the raiders had used it on us, they wouldn't be complaining and everything would be glorious. :\

[Glen-Rhodes]

Two defenders were ejected during the liberation of Stargate. The raider delegate only had to eject two more within 10 or so seconds to defeat the liberation. So it's not as if "magic endorsements" make it impossible to defeat a liberation. I haven't been doing this for long, but I'd bet there have plenty of liberations that failed, even while using the method, considering how long it's been around.

[Unibot II]

Two defenders were ejected during the liberation of Stargate. The raider delegate only had to eject two more within 10 or so seconds to defeat the liberation. So it's not as if "magic endorsements" make it impossible to defeat a liberation. I haven't been doing this for long, but I'd bet there have plenty of liberations that failed, even while using the method, considering how long it's been around.

That and we pre-endorsed, so they had a list of us to ban and eject, there really is no legitimate excuse on their end. I think I causally refreshed the page like eight times after I moved but before the region updated. In fact LWU performed so badly with this raid, I wouldn't be surprised if they were setting us up so they could make a big stink about this in their own thread -- Tikal's post was rather quickly composed.

[The Imperial Founder]

Eh, should be fixed so both sides can't use it.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

[Tramiar]

Eh, should be fixed so both sides can't use it.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

I'm for this.

[Unibot II]

Eh, should be fixed so both sides can't use it.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

While we're at we could get rid of WA Delegates, then both sides couldn't use that either! Hardly good logic on this, the whole Military Gameplay world is based on an exploitation of the game system and nothing grossly malicious is achieved with magic endorsements contrary to Tikal's fearmongering.

[Goobergunchia]

In 2003, as part of the fallout over the UN fire incident, [violet] ruled that any apparent Gameplay glitches are exploitable and playable so long as they don't single out particular nations or regions. I'm not 100% sure if this ruling is still valid, but I don't see why it wouldn't be. (If a Moderator, Administrator, or someone just generally more knowledgeable than I has a correction to this, then listen to them. ) The "magic endorsement" technique has been around for years and I am not aware of any adverse Moderator ruling on said technique.

I also don't see why a technical change to prevent this technique would be beneficial to the game. Ultimately, invasions and defenses come down to a game of numbers. A sufficiently large, coordinated liberation group will succeed simply because the invader delegate doesn't have enough time to eject enough nations. Likewise, if the delegate has enough endorsements, it'll be hard to find enough people to come in and take the delegacy regardless of tactics. Removing "magic endorsements" would simply give a slightly greater advantage--probably by seconds at best, considering how quickly a nation can be endorsed--to the incumbent delegate at update time.

[SunRawr]

Personally, I am looking forward to using this technique..

[Midnight Lost Child]

For the record the defenders have attempted to use it twice in Middle Earth. So it seems to indicate an upswing in their use of this glitch. Sadly it seems this issue will not be addressed.

Thank you for informing us. It's a known bug in the code but it doesn't have any effect as the endorcements are lost at the update if the nations doing the endorcing are not in the region. Since the delegateship is decided at the update, it doesn't actually cause problems.

[-The West Coast-]

Personally, I am looking forward to using this technique..

So are we.

[Unibot II]

For the record the defenders have attempted to use it twice in Middle Earth. So it seems to indicate an upswing in their use of this glitch. Sadly it seems this issue will not be addressed.

Thank you for informing us. It's a known bug in the code but it doesn't have any effect as the endorcements are lost at the update if the nations doing the endorcing are not in the region. Since the delegateship is decided at the update, it doesn't actually cause problems.

Two failures to liberate Middle Earth using magic endorsements, rather clear proof that this isn't near the advantage that Tikal is making it out to be. Or perhaps TBR/TBH is simply more talented than LWU.

[Of crazed]

This desperate measure comes as zero surprise based on the current defender environment. Without use of outside tech tools defenders would be all but irrelevant. TITO only has their size, which we all know they can thank recruitment scripts and the UDL have found some new tech loop hole. I guess it's no surprise after the FRA were forced to admit they can't liberate regions anymore in their most recent embassy cable.

[Topid]

No, we shouldn't change the rules of the game when raiders get lazy, they should evolve and adapt as defenders do.

Leave things as they are.

(In case that sounded familiar)

[Glen-Rhodes]

This desperate measure comes as zero surprise based on the current defender environment. Without use of outside tech tools defenders would be all but irrelevant. TITO only has their size, which we all know they can thank recruitment scripts and the UDL have found some new tech loop hole. I guess it's no surprise after the FRA were forced to admit they can't liberate regions anymore in their most recent embassy cable.

The UDL hasn't found anything new. As said a few posts up, this exploit has been used legally since 2004. Raiders have the upper hand by design, and this small exploit gives a small advantage to defenders. Let's not be too dramatic, here.

[Unibot II]

No, we shouldn't change the rules of the game when raiders get lazy, they should evolve and adapt as defenders do.

Leave things as they are.

(In case that sounded familiar)

[/thread]

[Midnight Lost Child]

No, we shouldn't change the rules of the game when raiders get lazy, they should evolve and adapt as defenders do.

Leave things as they are.

(In case that sounded familiar)

I forgot remind me what part of update raiding directly contradicted something in the rules...

As discussed in the FAQ, you can only endorse another nation if you are both members of the World Assembly and you are both in the same region.

[Of crazed]

This desperate measure comes as zero surprise based on the current defender environment. Without use of outside tech tools defenders would be all but irrelevant. TITO only has their size, which we all know they can thank recruitment scripts and the UDL have found some new tech loop hole. I guess it's no surprise after the FRA were forced to admit they can't liberate regions anymore in their most recent embassy cable.

The UDL hasn't found anything new. As said a few posts up, this exploit has been used legally since 2004. Raiders have the upper hand by design, and this small exploit gives a small advantage to defenders. Let's not be too dramatic, here.

You know what is legal since 2004 as well? Re-founding regions that sound similar to other regions.

http://www.nationstates.net/region=den

But you know as well as I do it there is a moderator double standard in this game. When it happens to me, its 'legal', when it happens to UDL its 'trolling' and reversed.

As far as this rule, you admit it yourself it's a glitch, which is using tech expertise that I do not have to gain an upper hand. This isn't doing something creative in the game, this is using some sort of code loophole, and those are two very different situations.

[Goobergunchia]

I forgot remind me what part of update raiding directly contradicted something in the rules...

As discussed in the FAQ, you can only endorse another nation if you are both members of the World Assembly and you are both in the same region.

Err... Nai's FAQ is a rule?

As far as this rule, you admit it yourself it's a glitch, which is using tech expertise that I do not have to gain an upper hand. This isn't doing something creative in the game, this is using some sort of code loophole, and those are two very different situations.

To the best of my knowledge, it has been legal to exploit code loopholes for non-malicious purposes (unless explicitly prohibited) since October 2003.

Also, since this is the Technical forum, I thought this thread was about whether said code loophole should be removed, not about whether its use should be prohibited by Moderator ruling.

[Unibot II]

As far as this rule, you admit it yourself it's a glitch, which is using tech expertise that I do not have to gain an upper hand. This isn't doing something creative in the game, this is using some sort of code loophole, and those are two very different situations.

Dude, Tikal has supplied the method. I taught three men to cast said endorsements in twenty minutes, surely you can take this time to learn how to do the same as we're been doing and have been doing for years.

[Glen-Rhodes]

As far as this rule, you admit it yourself it's a glitch, which is using tech expertise that I do not have to gain an upper hand. This isn't doing something creative in the game, this is using some sort of code loophole, and those are two very different situations.

The attack of Luddites, again. I've experienced this on numerous occasions with my telegram user-scripts. The bottom line is that there is no great equalizer in NationStates. Some of us have technical knowledge about how coding works, and that may or may not give us a strategic or tactical advantage.

In this particular case, this knowledge is nothing special. For modern browsers with the capability of real-time source code editing, it's literally a matter of changing a single part of a single line of code. It could very well have been discovered by accident by somebody with beginner HTML skills and a knack for experimenting.

This exploit hardly requires "expertise." Even if it did, though, there is no great equalizer on NationStates. Just because one group has an advantage doesn't mean the other group can go to the admins and have the advantage taken away. Especially when that advantage is hardly a great revelation or even really a great help at all.

[-The West Coast-]

As far as this rule, you admit it yourself it's a glitch, which is using tech expertise that I do not have to gain an upper hand. This isn't doing something creative in the game, this is using some sort of code loophole, and those are two very different situations.

I have little-to-no tech savvy myself, but I got to figuring it out right quick. I don't see why you can't either.

[SunRawr]

Whoa.. Does this really have to be a whole raider vs. defender showdown? It may be dangerous for me to break ranks here, but I actually like this "bug" as it is. Yeah, it may make us a little more vulnerable to liberations, but we can still fight them off. We will adapt and survive. This opens up options for our side that I had not considered before. Good options. Instead of getting caught up in hating what they say just cuz they are fendas, think about the possibilities!

[Improving Wordiness]

I have seen both sides use this glitch. In other games it is against the rules to exploit a known bug. It should be the case here as well.
I hear the word adaptation a lot lately and it seems to be mostly when people are manipulating a flawed system to suit themselves and then justify it.