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Unibot II
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Postby Unibot II » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:00 pm

Krioval wrote:
Unibot II wrote:
I think the idea is that "Social Justice" never made sense as a title for what we were using it for -- health & medicine is it's own distinction category over Social Justice which in RL usage is more about poverty and inequality than it is health and medicine.


I consider improved healthcare to be under the purview of social justice. Also, it could be a useful umbrella term. Feel free to suggest something else by all means, but I agree with Fris that a Healthcare category is too limited.


The proposed category is not "Healthcare", that's the subcategory of the proposed "Health and Medicine".

Issues of Health and Medicine are a good chuck of what the WA resolves and what the UN resolves -- it's not too vague. I don't think Fris said that Health and Medicine was too limited.
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Krioval
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Postby Krioval » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:44 pm

Unibot II wrote:
Krioval wrote:
I consider improved healthcare to be under the purview of social justice. Also, it could be a useful umbrella term. Feel free to suggest something else by all means, but I agree with Fris that a Healthcare category is too limited.


The proposed category is not "Healthcare", that's the subcategory of the proposed "Health and Medicine".

Issues of Health and Medicine are a good chuck of what the WA resolves and what the UN resolves -- it's not too vague. I don't think Fris said that Health and Medicine was too limited.


So you're proposing "Health and Medicine - Healthcare"? How is this different from my suggestion except for the redundant phrasing? What else would be covered under "Health and Medicine"? I mean these questions seriously and am not trying to be offensive when asking them.

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Connopolis
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Postby Connopolis » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:49 pm

Krioval wrote:
Unibot II wrote:
The proposed category is not "Healthcare", that's the subcategory of the proposed "Health and Medicine".

Issues of Health and Medicine are a good chuck of what the WA resolves and what the UN resolves -- it's not too vague. I don't think Fris said that Health and Medicine was too limited.


So you're proposing "Health and Medicine - Healthcare"? How is this different from my suggestion except for the redundant phrasing? What else would be covered under "Health and Medicine"? I mean these questions seriously and am not trying to be offensive when asking them.


Forgive me for my succinctness, but:

Unibot wrote:Foreign Aid and Development : A resolution to improve global health at the expense of economic freedoms.

Healthcare : A resolution to improve national health and wellness funded by the public sector.

Research: A resolution to expand bureaucracy to research and study health and medicine.

Ethics: A resolution to establish international standards and values in health and medicine.


I think you may have skipped over a very large portion of the recent debate.
Last edited by Connopolis on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:52 pm

I'll point out that subcategories (areas of effect) don't get their own descriptor line. Think of those Areas of Effect description lines as guidelines for the GA sticky, assuming this gets added.

A more extensive discussion can be found on page 4 of this thread.

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Krioval
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Postby Krioval » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:08 pm

Connopolis wrote:Forgive me for my succinctness, but:

Unibot wrote:Foreign Aid and Development : A resolution to improve global health at the expense of economic freedoms.

Healthcare : A resolution to improve national health and wellness funded by the public sector.

Research: A resolution to expand bureaucracy to research and study health and medicine.

Ethics: A resolution to establish international standards and values in health and medicine.


I think you may have skipped over a very large portion of the recent debate.


The first two look like they have overlapping effects - they both improve healthcare funding, and they both will have a negative impact on the private economic sector. I would prefer to see research under Education and Creativity, as both education and creativity pretty much define what research is. I don't see why the ethics category couldn't be subsumed into SJ: Healthcare or SJ: Safety Regulations just as easily.

I guess I think that the category is too narrow and would prefer a migration to more general areas of effect. I worry that some of these categories would really only be applicable once or twice (especially the ethics one - a single Bioethics/Medical Ethics proposal might very well end the use of the category).

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Unibot II
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Postby Unibot II » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:49 pm

Krioval wrote:The first two look like they have overlapping effects - they both improve healthcare funding, and they both will have a negative impact on the private economic sector.


Um.. no. One of them is foreign aid and the other is changing domestic health policies.

I guess I think that the category is too narrow and would prefer a migration to more general areas of effect.


It covers almost everything that we used to shove into the Social Justice except for the one or two Social Justice resolutions that actually addressed poverty and inequality and welfare. I don't think you can call it "narrow".

I worry that some of these categories would really only be applicable once or twice (especially the ethics one - a single Bioethics/Medical Ethics proposal might very well end the use of the category).


The ethics one covers a load of existing resolutions, any case where a medical practice is being legalized because it's a bioethical decision.
Last edited by Unibot II on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Krioval
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Postby Krioval » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:55 am

Unibot II wrote:Um.. no. One of them is foreign aid and the other is changing domestic health policies.


And yet they could have equivalent statistical effects, allowing them to be placed in a "Healthcare" subcategory without penalty.

It covers almost everything that we used to shove into the Social Justice except for the one or two Social Justice resolutions that actually addressed poverty and inequality and welfare. I don't think you can call it "narrow".


We already have a Social Justice category, though, and we could clearly say that Healthcare is a subset of social justice in general - if the WA is going to impose international standards on healthcare (or mandate it for all citizens, or whatever else it might do), I still think the subcategory would be easiest and most interesting. Instead of having to examine every detail of the medical field, we could instead focus on different aspects of social justice, which seems like a broader category.

The ethics one covers a load of existing resolutions, any case where a medical practice is being legalized because it's a bioethical decision.


How would a Healthcare subcategory work less well, though? We have Free Press for information dissemination, and I proposed that we have Healthcare for actual medical spending, with another subcategory like Public Safety or Safety Regulation for ethics in treatment. This would have the advantage of being a broader set of types that could also be used for, say, mining safety or public healthcare initiatives.

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EggPlantMania
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Postby EggPlantMania » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:00 am

Flibbleites wrote:
South Pacific Belschaft wrote:If we're discussing change to WA categories, may I suggest more subcategories in the Environmental section? At present we can choose from Automobile Manufacturing, Uranium Mining, Woodchiping and All Businesses. Categories such as Air Pollution, Toxic Emissions, Waste Dumping and so on would be useful.

Yes please.

If those were added I would actually attempt to write a proposal when ever I see the environmental categories my mind just says "What the hell, that's it?"
Last edited by EggPlantMania on Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unibot II
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Postby Unibot II » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:53 am

Krioval wrote:
Unibot II wrote:Um.. no. One of them is foreign aid and the other is changing domestic health policies.


And yet they could have equivalent statistical effects, allowing them to be placed in a "Healthcare" subcategory without penalty.


We decided on statistical effects that were not equivalent; besides "Healthcare" proposals are bound to be more controversial than "Foreign Aid".

It covers almost everything that we used to shove into the Social Justice except for the one or two Social Justice resolutions that actually addressed poverty and inequality and welfare. I don't think you can call it "narrow".


We already have a Social Justice category, though, and we could clearly say that Healthcare is a subset of social justice in general - if the WA is going to impose international standards on healthcare (or mandate it for all citizens, or whatever else it might do), I still think the subcategory would be easiest and most interesting. Instead of having to examine every detail of the medical field, we could instead focus on different aspects of social justice, which seems like a broader category.


We also have a Human Rights category and Morality category which are about as related to Health and Medicine as "Social Justice" is... by following that odd train of thought that categories should basically be void of meaning so we can 'conserve' how many categories we have... we could attach Health and Medicine proposals to just about any broker category you wanted.

The ethics one covers a load of existing resolutions, any case where a medical practice is being legalized because it's a bioethical decision.


How would a Healthcare subcategory work less well, though? We have Free Press for information dissemination, and I proposed that we have Healthcare for actual medical spending, with another subcategory like Public Safety or Safety Regulation for ethics in treatment. This would have the advantage of being a broader set of types that could also be used for, say, mining safety or public healthcare initiatives.


Mining safety is Human Rights and that's the correct category for it, Public Healthcare Initiatives would be "Healthcare" under Health and Medicine. Although we do have a census report for "safety", so perhaps the game makers would prefer safety proposals to be a subcategory of Health and Medicine. I don't that's necessary though, Human Rights fits fine.
Last edited by Unibot II on Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Krioval
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Postby Krioval » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:40 am

Unibot II wrote:We decided on statistical effects that were not equivalent; besides "Healthcare" proposals are bound to be more controversial than "Foreign Aid".


Who is covered by "we", just so that I understand. As for whether issues are controversial is hardly an argument for which categories should or shouldn't exist. Also, I disagree that healthcare is fundamentally more controversial than foreign aid, though that is an argument that probably shouldn't be hashed out here.

We also have a Human Rights category and Morality category which are about as related to Health and Medicine as "Social Justice" is... by following that odd train of thought that categories should basically be void of meaning so we can 'conserve' how many categories we have... we could attach Health and Medicine proposals to just about any broker category you wanted.


Uh, no. I think that social justice encompasses the subcategories I suggested or I wouldn't have suggested them. That would be the opposite of the idea "that categories should basically be void of meaning". That social justice is already used to increase medical spending and that arguments for expanded healthcare fall under the umbrella of a greater social justice movement certainly can be used to support SJ as a category from which medical resolutions can be written. We don't need a category for three or four proposals, let alone a huge tree of sub-categories under such a category.

Mining safety is Human Rights and that's the correct category for it,


It might be the best category (incredibly debatable), but it's not the "correct" category simply because improving mining safety hardly leads to a direct increase in civil rights. One could live in a repressive dictatorship that nonetheless believes in workplace safety - healthy workers might be able to work harder. Further, mining safety laws will have a definite economic impact, which Human Rights proposals don't directly impact.

Public Healthcare Initiatives would be "Healthcare" under Health and Medicine. Although we do have a census report for "safety", so perhaps the game makers would prefer safety proposals to be a subcategory of Health and Medicine. I don't that's necessary though, Human Rights fits fine.


Both of those statements are absurd. First, I wouldn't categorize mining safety as Human Rights given the current scope of the majority of those resolutions. Maybe you could shoehorn it into place, but Social Justice would also work given the historical use of that category. Second, the idea of "Health and Medicine - Healthcare" is redundant and sounds silly. And for the record, I'm hardly a fan of "Education and Creativity - Educational", but at least the category deals with culture and expression. How is "Health and Medicine" going to have a wide impact aside from having four sub-categories that move money around in pretty much the same way, or with sub-categories that clearly could be placed under existing categories that have wider scope and relevance?

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:10 pm

Just to clarify one possible misunderstanding. New categories (if any) would be added to the game, not replacing existing categories.

Also, it's extremely unlikely that the admins would make category corrections on existing resolutions. Since resolutions have statistical effect only on the day they pass, such changes would be purely cosmetic. Also quite possibly against the intent of the authors and voters.

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The Most Glorious Hack
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Postby The Most Glorious Hack » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:13 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:Since resolutions have statistical effect only on the day they pass, such changes would be purely cosmetic. Also quite possibly against the intent of the authors and voters.

Unless repealed, in which case you'd have the "wrong" effect adjustments.
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Glen-Rhodes
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Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:26 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:Just to clarify one possible misunderstanding. New categories (if any) would be added to the game, not replacing existing categories.

That severely the kind of reform WA players are seeking... Or are you simply saying that admins wouldn't go back and change previous resolutions? Because that's different from reforming the Social Justice category, but still being able to submit a Social Justice resolution.

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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:24 am

Glen-Rhodes, I'm not understanding your question. Here's a hypothetical clarification which may answer your objection (if that's what it was):

  • Admin adds a new category on Health and Medicine, but does not change the category of existing resolutions.
  • Social Justice remains exactly as it is
  • New resolutions get passed in the H&M category, and have appropriate in-game effects.
  • New resolutions get passed in the SJ category, and have appropriate in-game effects.
  • Old 'medical' resolutions in the SJ category get repealed. The repeal is treated as a Social Justice repeal, with appropriate in-game effects.
  • Replacement resolutions are introduced under H&M, and have appropriate H&M effects.

Does that cover it?
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unibot II
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Postby Unibot II » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:45 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:Glen-Rhodes, I'm not understanding your question. Here's a hypothetical clarification which may answer your objection (if that's what it was):

  • Admin adds a new category on Health and Medicine, but does not change the category of existing resolutions.
  • Social Justice remains exactly as it is
  • New resolutions get passed in the H&M category, and have appropriate in-game effects.
  • New resolutions get passed in the SJ category, and have appropriate in-game effects.
  • Old 'medical' resolutions in the SJ category get repealed. The repeal is treated as a Social Justice repeal, with appropriate in-game effects.
  • Replacement resolutions are introduced under H&M, and have appropriate H&M effects.

Does that cover it?


I was thinking that after the reform, proposals that would be passed under Social Justice would be focused on Welfare and solving issues of inequality. What would you think the SJ category would be used for?
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Glen-Rhodes
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Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:53 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:Glen-Rhodes, I'm not understanding your question. Here's a hypothetical clarification which may answer your objection (if that's what it was):

  • Admin adds a new category on Health and Medicine, but does not change the category of existing resolutions.
  • Social Justice remains exactly as it is
  • New resolutions get passed in the H&M category, and have appropriate in-game effects.
  • New resolutions get passed in the SJ category, and have appropriate in-game effects.
  • Old 'medical' resolutions in the SJ category get repealed. The repeal is treated as a Social Justice repeal, with appropriate in-game effects.
  • Replacement resolutions are introduced under H&M, and have appropriate H&M effects.

Does that cover it?

My question is about your second bullet point. Isn't the entire goal of reform to replace Social Justice with more appropriate categories? Or has the discussion shifted away from that consensus? The idea of creating a new H&M category, to me, is so that Social Justice resolutions need not affect healthcare spending. That would necessitate a change in the Social Justice category itself, not merely the creation of a dedicated category for health-related resolutions.
Last edited by Glen-Rhodes on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unibot II
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Postby Unibot II » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:05 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Frisbeeteria wrote:Glen-Rhodes, I'm not understanding your question. Here's a hypothetical clarification which may answer your objection (if that's what it was):

  • Admin adds a new category on Health and Medicine, but does not change the category of existing resolutions.
  • Social Justice remains exactly as it is
  • New resolutions get passed in the H&M category, and have appropriate in-game effects.
  • New resolutions get passed in the SJ category, and have appropriate in-game effects.
  • Old 'medical' resolutions in the SJ category get repealed. The repeal is treated as a Social Justice repeal, with appropriate in-game effects.
  • Replacement resolutions are introduced under H&M, and have appropriate H&M effects.

Does that cover it?

My question is about your second bullet point. Isn't the entire goal of reform to replace Social Justice with more appropriate categories? Or has the discussion shifted away from that consensus? The idea of creating a new H&M category, to me, is so that Social Justice resolutions need not affect healthcare spending. That would necessitate a change in the Social Justice category itself, not merely the creation of a dedicated category for health-related resolutions.


G-R, the category effects of Social Justice never really made a whole lot of sense for H&M bills anyways, it was just vaguely related.
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:35 am

Isn't the entire goal of reform to replace Social Justice with more appropriate categories? Or has the discussion shifted away from that consensus?

I've not seen any signs of such a consensus. Maybe I skimmed over them earlier in this thread somewhere, but I always thought this was about addition, not reformation.

From a practical perspective, Social Justice has a plethora of existing resolutions. [violet] has made it clear (in private) that categories with existing resolutions will NOT be changed. The combination of technical challenge and "the law of unforeseen consequences" makes changing categories that are currently in use about as safe as changing your oil while driving down the highway.

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Postby Mousebumples » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:12 am

A few general thoughts/suggestions:

  • I think the category name of "Health and Wellness" may have a better overarching goal/theme for this new category, which may potentially allow for the inclusion of a more varied sub-category/AoE list within it. To me, "Health and Medicine" seems somewhat redundant and arguably too limiting.
  • When rereading the posts in this thread last night, I was noticing that we don't really have a "religion" category in the WA. It's not absolutely necessary, by any means (and I would suspect that any Everyone Must Be X Religion proposals would be shot down), I think it would/could introduce a new set of variables and stat-wanking that isn't yet affected by any present GA categories. Not that I'm an admin/techie by any stretch of the imagination, but having a category that increases (and another that decreases) national spirituality could be a new wrinkle to add in. Spiritual health could arguably fit under a more expansive "Health and Wellness" category, perhaps with an AoE of spirituality? Arguably, Education & Creativity: Education could be a counterweight as oftentimes education leads individuals towards more of a secular view of the world/humanity. Of course, I don't know how each category is coded for stat effects (or if potentially changing some stat effects of already existing resolutions is even on the table for discussion).
  • Research seems like it could (potentially) duplicate the Educational AoE of Education & Creativity. Yes, this category would have a health-specific angle to it, but I'm uncertain if a whole new AoE is needed specifically for medical research.
  • I think Ethics would still fit well under this new proposed category, but it would be expanded from beyond the limited scope of medical professionals. It could potentially be renamed as "Ethics and Standards" so as to cover professional ethics and minimum standards for other careers/services provided under the Health and Wellness umbrella. (i.e. gyms & health clubs, psychiatric institutions, emergency response teams, disaster response units, etc.) I think that there is potential from some things that are being portrayed as "human rights" (such as Uni's resolution) that may fit better under this sort of category/AoE. I don't think that Social Justice is the only category into which some proposals were arguably shoehorned as they didn't really fit anywhere else.
  • Healthcare would (obviously) still fit as well.
  • Foreign Aid (and Development), I think, needs some reworking. I like the idea, but it seems somewhat limited, from the wording of the AoE. I would think that perhaps something more along the lines of International Cooperation (i.e. Doctors without Borders, International Disaster Relief something, international Habitat For Humanity) might be a better name/aim. Foreign Aid (and Development) seems like it's mostly focused on the mere giving and receiving of aid. While that could be incorporated into an International Cooperation AoE, I think that the name International Cooperation would hopefully expand proposals/resolutions beyond the aid side of things.

So, to summarize:
Proposed Category: Health & Wellness
Areas of Effect: Healthcare, Spirituality, International Cooperation, and Ethics & Standards.

Questions for the techies:
  1. I'm guessing there's a max character count for AoEs. Is anyone willing to share what that is so we can be sure that any ideas/solutions we have would fit under such a limit?
  2. Are proposed (minor) stat changes to existing categories up for debate/suggestion? I don't know if those are generally never changed/tweaked without user-prompting. Since I think we all/mostly are in agreement that it's best if each category has a counter-weight somewhere, it's something to keep in mind when we're suggesting new categories.
Last edited by Mousebumples on Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Glen-Rhodes
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Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:48 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Isn't the entire goal of reform to replace Social Justice with more appropriate categories? Or has the discussion shifted away from that consensus?

I've not seen any signs of such a consensus. Maybe I skimmed over them earlier in this thread somewhere, but I always thought this was about addition, not reformation.

From a practical perspective, Social Justice has a plethora of existing resolutions. [violet] has made it clear (in private) that categories with existing resolutions will NOT be changed. The combination of technical challenge and "the law of unforeseen consequences" makes changing categories that are currently in use about as safe as changing your oil while driving down the highway.

When we first talked about this a while back, the great majority of us wanted to spin off a new health-related category because it didn't make much sense for non-health-related SJ resolutions to affect healthcare spending. We also didn't like that health-related resolutions had to be placed into SJ, since at the time there was a lot of demonization of SJ resolutions going on.

I don't really see the point in having a separate category if a non-health-related SJ resolution still increases healthcare spending... We'd have two categories that affect healthcare spending. The only difference would be that one forces non-health resolution to meddle with healthcare spending, while the other exists specifically for health resolutions.

I wasn't under the impression that actual reform was ruled out from the very beginning. Not to be pissy or sassy about it, but what's the point of all this, then? Gaining the new category would be great, I hope we do get a new Health & Medicine (or Wellness -- I like Mousebumple's idea). But we'd still have the problem that kick-started the discussion about adding a new category in the first place.
Last edited by Glen-Rhodes on Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:55 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:01 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:I don't really see the point in having a separate category if a non-health-related SJ resolution still increases healthcare spending... We'd have two categories that affect healthcare spending.


Social Justice makes "A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare." Nowhere in that description is the phrase "health care". I've always been under the assumption that all such changes hit the government department of Social Welfare, which was the only possible fit for medical-themed proposals.

Now, a game statistician may show me that there are health effects when the game processes such an issue, but until somebody shows me that effect, I'm assuming that the WA has never directly addressed healthcare except as by inflation of Social Welfare.

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Unibot II
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Postby Unibot II » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:02 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:[
I don't really see the point in having a separate category if a non-health-related SJ resolution still increases healthcare spending... We'd have two categories that affect healthcare spending. The only difference would be that one forces non-health resolution to meddle with healthcare spending, while the other exists specifically for health resolutions.


Nothing about SJ's category description or its effect says it should be used for Health and Medicine. *scratches his head*

EDIT: Or what Fris said.
Last edited by Unibot II on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Glen-Rhodes
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Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:06 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:I don't really see the point in having a separate category if a non-health-related SJ resolution still increases healthcare spending... We'd have two categories that affect healthcare spending.


Social Justice makes "A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare." Nowhere in that description is the phrase "health care". I've always been under the assumption that all such changes hit the government department of Social Welfare, which was the only possible fit for medical-themed proposals.

Now, a game statistician may show me that there are health effects when the game processes such an issue, but until somebody shows me that effect, I'm assuming that the WA has never directly addressed healthcare except as by inflation of Social Welfare.

The knowledge we're working off of is on this page on NSWiki, which is the best information we have available. You're better positioned to know if Social Justice actually increases healthcare. If it doesn't, then I withdraw my complaint. But if it does, then I think this discussion is only talking about one side of the solution.

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Frisbeeteria
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Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:10 pm

I think the NSwiki page is basing their statement on expectations of effect rather than statistical modelling. We'd need a statistical analyst like some of the NS tools authors to give us a better answer.

You're better positioned to know if Social Justice actually increases healthcare.

Better, perhaps, but I still don't have access to the raw code. An admin would have to address this. As it happens, [violet] does read this topic, and will no doubt take your objections under consideration before acting.
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Unibot II » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:37 pm

When I tried to measure the effects, I didn't find it very ... consistent. A lot of different stuff seemed to be played with -- it wasn't just a consistent, 5% addition to Social Welfare spending. :p
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
General Halcones wrote:Look up to Unibot as an example.
Member of Gholgoth | The Capitalis de Societate of The United Defenders League (UDL) | Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL?
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Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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