NS Data Dump

[Improving Wordiness]

I am under the impression that each day there is a data dump that lists the regions in order of update.
Is it possible to change the order of the list prior to the dump? This would stop people having easy access to update times.
I realize it's not that difficult to build up a list of regions in update sequence but it would have to be done manually and require some work to build up.
An ideal would be to also do a once only region update order shuffle so anyone that already has obtained an order of update list using the data dump would have to build one rather than using information already obtained in the above mentioned manner.

[Oliver the Mediocre]

Really? Haven't we discussed this already? At length, I might add.

[Aessirians]

This brings a really funny image to mind. When America develops a high-tech new spaceship, does Russia cry foul and ask for the ship to be destroyed? XD

[Kshrlmnt]

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

What's the point of a game without adaptation? When you learned to spot our puppets, we had to get better at hiding them. With late-updating targets, we had to find ways to keep from updating too early. Now we've adapted to variance? Adapt to our speed, instead of asking for a way out.

You're good at what you do, Wordy. Very good. Don't waste it.

[Improving Wordiness]

Simply asking for the Data that is dumped to be shuffled around a bit. This in no way will impact on regions and how they update.
I added an ideal but I can understand it would impact too broadly on the game but it cant hurt to ask

[Oliver the Mediocre]

Simply asking for the Data that is dumped to be shuffled around a bit. This in no way will impact on regions and how they update.
I added an ideal but I can understand it would impact too broadly on the game but it cant hurt to ask

Can't hurt but it can become tiresome to keep repeating: "You have to adapt to us for once."

[Sedgistan]

Really? Haven't we discussed this already? At length, I might add.

This appears to be a different suggestion to the ones raised in the other thread, and importantly, wouldn't put restrictions on update raiding (I opposed those changes on the grounds that they'd all have seriously damaged the activities of raiders and defenders at update).

I'm in favour of this change - I think that having a publicly available list of the order that regions update has taken a lot of the skill (and work) out of obtaining update times. I'm aware that for those that use the list, there probably is some skill in predicting when a region will update, but the difference is that they can use that to obtain any update time just a few minutes before the region updates. Previously, invasions & liberations had to be planned in advance, with the update time for each region acquired at least 12 hours prior to moving into the region.

However, if this were to be implemented, I don't think there'd be a need to shuffle the existing update times of regions - whatever lists people still had would, over time, become less accurate - giving them time to adapt to the change.

[Unibot II]

I'm against this revert, Military Gameplay has and will continue to be improved with ordered update times. It gives defenders a better chance to liberate, and raiders a better chance against defenders in taking a region... overall, this leads us to the model of gameplay we'd prefer, more opportunity for liberations --> the extension of raids.

I'm in favour of this change - I think that having a publicly available list of the order that regions update has taken a lot of the skill (and work) out of obtaining update times. I'm aware that for those that use the list, there probably is some skill in predicting when a region will update, but the difference is that they can use that to obtain any update time just a few minutes before the region updates. Previously, invasions & liberations had to be planned in advance, with the update time for each region acquired at least 12 hours prior to moving into the region.

In an idealistic world, but if you try to put it into practice, you still need to plan ahead.. because there isn't the updaters around to run liberations at a whim -- and I think there is more skill involved in using the list more effectively than just getting an update time and hoping the variance isn't too off. A more skillful interpreter of the list can beat out a less skillful interpreter of the list, I can't share the details here, but this is most certainly the case. For example, Evil Wolf has picked a strategically strong place to hold his raid in Middle Earth, I can't go into the details once again, but it is strategically strong for a reason and it takes some wits to circumvent the environmental circumstances that the location of Middle Earth poses for defenders. Military Gameplay with ordered update times is more strategic and more fun -- defenders just haven't caught onto the tricks needed to succeed in this model yet, but I think as they do so, they'll come to recognize that this way of playing is better for Military Gameplay than the old way.

[Oliver the Mediocre]

I'm against this revert, Military Gameplay has and will continue to be improved with ordered update times. It gives defenders a better chance to liberate, and raiders a better chance against defenders in taking a region... overall, this leads us to the model of gameplay we'd prefer, more opportunity for liberations --> the extension of raids.

I'm in favour of this change - I think that having a publicly available list of the order that regions update has taken a lot of the skill (and work) out of obtaining update times. I'm aware that for those that use the list, there probably is some skill in predicting when a region will update, but the difference is that they can use that to obtain any update time just a few minutes before the region updates. Previously, invasions & liberations had to be planned in advance, with the update time for each region acquired at least 12 hours prior to moving into the region.

In an idealistic world, but if you try to put it into practice, you still need to plan ahead.. because there isn't the updaters around to run liberations at a whim -- and I think there is more skill involved in using the list more effectively than just getting an update time and hoping the variance isn't too off. A more skillful interpreter of the list can beat out a less skillful interpreter of the list, I can't share the details here, but this is most certainly the case. For example, Evil Wolf has picked a strategically strong place to hold his raid in Middle Earth, I can't go into the details once again, but it is strategically strong for a reason and it takes some wits to circumvent the environmental circumstances that the location of Middle Earth poses for defenders. Military Gameplay with ordered update times is more strategic and more fun -- defenders just haven't caught onto the tricks needed to succeed in this model yet, but I think as they do so, they'll come to recognize that this way of playing is better for Military Gameplay than the old way.

I'm a bit shocked to find myself in complete agreement with you. So yay for that.

[Halcones]

I do not support. These XML feeds are freely available to all, both raiders and defenders. Defenders can make good use of these, and they should. Listen to Unibot. Reshuffling the update order will result in me leaving the game, along with others.

Just try to adapt, there's no other way out.

[Improving Wordiness]

Unibot keeping this tool in order to liberate regions to me is backward thinking. Changing how the Data is dumped will not stop us from liberating regions however it seems to me you sacrifice being able to defend a region in order to liberate it.

Halc surely your raids are not entirely Dependant on this list?

[Ballotonia]

The update order becoming so easily available was (yet another) advantage towards invaders. For defenders it doesn't matter much at all, since we react anyway. For invaders it's very handy in target selection and planning, a real time saver.

This proposal in the OP is hence a request to turn things back to the way they were before: anyone who wants an update list needs to do a lot of work to get one, and spend the effort in maintaining it as with new regions being founded and old ones ceasing to exist the list gradually changes.

And Halcones, could you please stop 'threatening' to leave the game as a means to somehow 'force' game management to do your bidding? The entire ADN folded over Influence, so why do you even think you 'threatening' to quit is even relevant? Gameplay doesn't revolve around your person.

Ballotonia

[Halcones]

Actually defenders could use this to predict our raids, to some extent.

I am not threatening to leave, I am just saying if changes are made here I and many others will simply stop playing. It's a fact, not a threat.

[Improving Wordiness]

Predicting where you might raid would not work. Unless we deployed first. In which case we would be invading

[Halcones]

It would. You wouldn't have to pre-defend. You'd predict the target, and refresh it. As soon as you see us arrive, you'd click to move. That way would save time. I shouldn't be giving you tactics, but I'd rather do that than you continue moaning and campaigning for changes here there and everywhere.

[Lordieth]

I disagree with both arguments. The problem isn't the updating system, it's the transparancy. Only those who can understand how to use the XML feeds have the advantage. Make the next update ETA available in all Region Civil Headquarters, making the system just as fair for defenders who don't use the XML feed.

[Halcones]

Both sides should have the challenge of working out how to make use of the list. You can't just read update times straight off it, or calculate variance straight from it. It is a lot more challenging than that.

It is good that the list is available, since it changes gameplay, as Unibot mentions.

[Wopruthien]

Unibot keeping this tool in order to liberate regions to me is backward thinking. Changing how the Data is dumped will not stop us from liberating regions however it seems to me you sacrifice being able to defend a region in order to liberate it.

Halc surely your raids are not entirely Dependant on this list?

This

Though I can understand Uni's way of thinking, it does save us time and helps out with liberations. But our main purpose is to defend, a liberation is a secondary concern.

This gives a huge advantage to raiders who can now work out the XML feed and have a list of targets they can hit without hardly any leg work.

[Halcones]

For much time there have been scripts which have revealed founderless regions to defenders (those made available by Charles from the Commonwealth), and revealed changes in endorsement counts. You can't complain at the now publically available XML feeds, which balance things out considerably. Now both raiders and defenders have access to such information.

There are many scripts that I'm sure defenders aren't letting on....

[Ballotonia]

Scripts aren't some sort of secret book of information not available anywhere else. They just take information from the game and process it. They save time, sometimes lots of time, that's all. They don't allow someone to do something which otherwise would be entirely impossible.

Writing scripts requires effort. One month ago I couldn't write a single line of perl to save my life. I've since bothered to learn a tiny bit of the language so I could write an NS script in that language. You could also make that effort, if you wished to do so. It's just another skill.


This topic is about whether the update order should be conveniently available as public information in an XML data dump, or whether it should be like it was before when trying to keep track of the update order took time and effort (knowing one would never get it right 100%). I'm in favor of returning to the way it used to be.

Ballotonia

[Unibot II]

Unibot keeping this tool in order to liberate regions to me is backward thinking. Changing how the Data is dumped will not stop us from liberating regions however it seems to me you sacrifice being able to defend a region in order to liberate it.

Halc surely your raids are not entirely Dependant on this list?

Um... we're still defending regions... just not as many. If Halc wants to keep the list, and I think Gameplay is way better off with the list, than Halc needs to stop running these switcher-fests, because they're pissing off the community to the point where there's pressure to get rid of the list which wouldn't even solve the problem. If Halc was using the list for one or two raids a night, and holding these regions... I don't think you'd see the community outrage. ALSO, Wordy, *puts on Doc Brown wig* you're not thinking fourth dimensionally ... in an ideal state, Halc may be able to conduct a large scale raid using the list and be almost indefensible.. but in practice, he'll need people not just a roommate to run the mission, which gives us a way better chance of spotting or intelligence picking up something.

I disagree with both arguments. The problem isn't the updating system, it's the transparancy. Only those who can understand how to use the XML feeds have the advantage. Make the next update ETA available in all Region Civil Headquarters, making the system just as fair for defenders who don't use the XML feed.

How is that a convincing argument? What if you didn't understand how update worked? Should [violet] change the code for you so it made sense? You don't need to be a coder to navigate the XML feeds <--- that's the beautiful thing about it, it fit's nicely into the arsenal of gameplayer tricks. If you're a defender and want to know these tricks, drop me a telegram and I'll see what I can tell you (I'll have to check with Intelligence on your status as a defender), if you're a raider, I don't suppose Halc will be able to give you a few tricks for a non-coder.

Unibot keeping this tool in order to liberate regions to me is backward thinking. Changing how the Data is dumped will not stop us from liberating regions however it seems to me you sacrifice being able to defend a region in order to liberate it.

Halc surely your raids are not entirely Dependant on this list?

This

Though I can understand Uni's way of thinking, it does save us time and helps out with liberations. But our main purpose is to defend, a liberation is a secondary concern.

This gives a huge advantage to raiders who can now work out the XML feed and have a list of targets they can hit without hardly any leg work.

A list of targets to run with two guys and not hold them. Are we even concerned with this anymore? I thought we we're just running massive de-tags now.

Halc, once again, if you stop using the ordered list trick for your switcher-fests, you'll reduce the community outrage on this --> Its been almost eleven months and no one has given a dahm about the list until you started plastering every region in NS with your rather distracting WFE. Train your soldiers, the old way. Save the new and more efficient method for large scale raids.

[Halcones]

As has been said previously, our raiding marathons won't go on indefinitely. Besides soon I will be away for 6 weeks. After that, I hope I will have more time to recruit and build up a larger army.

We are quickly reaching the point now when most targets have already been taken by us. It is clear that this will cause a change in our tactics. We can do retags, and we have done a few already, though this will get boring in time.

As for training soldiers, this method works much better. If you like, we can work on having our own regions for such training purposes. However, I do not see why we have to go to such lengths just to put a smile on your face.

[Sedgistan]

Halc, once again, if you stop using the ordered list trick for your switcher-fests, you'll reduce the community outrage on this --> Its been almost eleven months and no one has given a dahm about the list until you started plastering every region in NS with your rather distracting WFE. Train your soldiers, the old way. Save the new and more efficient method for large scale raids.

You've got it wrong there. The list wasn't being used to work out update times until recently, so there was nothing to get annoyed about - that's the reason no-one has complained about it until now. It's actually an issue separate to TBH's invasions (which again - I don't see as a problem) - it could've been another invader (or even defender) group getting the update times from the Daily Data Dump, and people would have complained.

The point is that there are some areas of the games mechanics which are deliberately not open - things like exactly how influence work, and (historically) the update times of regions. Update times would have to be worked out well in advance of an update, and even then could vary significantly. If you can look at a list of regions in update order, you don't need to acquire update times in advance, and the variance in update times can be predicted far more easily (by watching the times that regions updating just before the target update at). This removes a level of unpredictability which I feel is necessary for update raiding/defending to be enjoyable, as it means there is no near-guaranteed way of succeeding in a mission.

You made me aware of the ordering of the list a couple of months ago, and I made clear that I was uneasy about it. I held off commenting here about it, because at the time, no-one appeared to be using it. Now that someone is, I've made my objections clear. And again - it doesn't matter who is using the list, it's the fact that it's being used at all for this purpose that I disagree with. Please don't look at this as a 'solution' to the supposed 'problem' with TBH's raids - look at it from the angle of whether it is right or not that there should be a way of either side getting update times to such a level of accuracy.

[Unibot II]

Halc, once again, if you stop using the ordered list trick for your switcher-fests, you'll reduce the community outrage on this --> Its been almost eleven months and no one has given a dahm about the list until you started plastering every region in NS with your rather distracting WFE. Train your soldiers, the old way. Save the new and more efficient method for large scale raids.

You've got it wrong there. The list wasn't being used to work out update times until recently, so there was nothing to get annoyed about - that's the reason no-one has complained about it until now. It's actually an issue separate to TBH's invasions (which again - I don't see as a problem) - it could've been another invader (or even defender) group getting the update times from the Daily Data Dump, and people would have complained.

The point is that there are some areas of the games mechanics which are deliberately not open - things like exactly how influence work, and (historically) the update times of regions. Update times would have to be worked out well in advance of an update, and even then could vary significantly. If you can look at a list of regions in update order, you don't need to acquire update times in advance, and the variance in update times can be predicted far more easily (by watching the times that regions updating just before the target update at). This removes a level of unpredictability which I feel is necessary for update raiding/defending to be enjoyable, as it means there is no near-guaranteed way of succeeding in a mission.

You made me aware of the ordering of the list a couple of months ago, and I made clear that I was uneasy about it. I held off commenting here about it, because at the time, no-one appeared to be using it. Now that someone is, I've made my objections clear. And again - it doesn't matter who is using the list, it's the fact that it's being used at all for this purpose that I disagree with. Please don't look at this as a 'solution' to the supposed 'problem' with TBH's raids - look at it from the angle of whether it is right or not that there should be a way of either side getting update times to such a level of accuracy.

But it's not a simple magic pill, you've never defended using it, you have no clue about the strategy involved with using the list. You did everything in your power to laugh me away when I suggested using the list back a few months ago, face it, this is about protecting how gameplay used to be, not what it can be. Military Gameplay will be much better with transparency, both sides can out think one another using the list, randomness means more refreshing R5, and more hoping you get the time right. In the last thread, defenders made it clear they wanted to be able to out think raiders if they used strategy.. you guys are shooting in your feet if you take away a mechanism for more strategy.

[Unibot II]

As for training soldiers, this method works much better. If you like, we can work on having our own regions for such training purposes. However, I do not see why we have to go to such lengths just to put a smile on your face.

Use the warzones.. that's what they.. wer--- weren't designed for.