New TG system: Q&A Thread

[Laevendell]

If there were a simple way of sending an individual telegram to an individual nation via the API, then I'm all for that.

I'm not so sure there is at the moment, as there is the problem of authenticating the sender of the telegram. If you use a template with a secret key, you have already verified your identity by generating the key while being logged in as your nation. I have proposed a solution some posts back that could work, but it depends on how much trouble it is to implement and whether it is secure enough.
I would also very much like to be able to fetch current messages and send individual ones through the API, instead of logging in on the site through a script for an external application (app).

[Lordieth]

Why send a new telegram each time? Couldn't you just use different templates for each possible way you would change the TG with API data? It's difficult to offer advice without knowing exactly what you're trying to do, but I think it would be better to utilize the API and expand it if needed.

I guess I could do that. The problem with that approach is that if I end up with 15 distinct variations of a telegram, for example, and just want to make a slight text alteration anywhere in the static parts of the telegram, then I have to go and create 15 new templates. Something about that just doesn't seem efficient. The problem would just get even worse as more dynamic telegram data was used.

The problem is that creating dynamic telegrams from multiple conditions isn't linear. I don't want to bog things down with mathematics, but the more variations you add, the bigger and bigger the total amount of possible variations there will be. Which is why I thought it best to just create the dynamic telegrams myself and send them without using the API.

I'm pretty sure there is. [violet] would just rather we don't send identical (or very similar) telegrams, but instead use templates. Maybe they can create new macros? Or even some kind of conditional statements.

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Conditional statements within the templates themselves?

If there were a simple way of sending an individual telegram to an individual nation via the API, then I'm all for that.

I'm not so sure there is at the moment, as there is the problem of authenticating the sender of the telegram. If you use a template with a secret key, you have already verified your identity by generating the key while being logged in as your nation. I have proposed a solution some posts back that could work, but it depends on how much trouble it is to implement and whether it is secure enough.
I would also very much like to be able to fetch current messages and send individual ones through the API, instead of logging in on the site through a script for an external application (app).

Perhaps I should wait until the new API is released until I can fully respond to that. If what you are saying is correct, then I'm confused as to how we'll be able to get the secret key purely through a script relying solely on the API.

If we have to log in to send the template to generate the key, then that makes using the API to send multiple variations of a telegram even less practical than just simulating user input.

I think I'll just wait until the API documentation is updated. I may be inadvertently speculating

[Laevendell]

Perhaps I should wait until the new API is released until I can fully respond to that. If what you are saying is correct, then I'm confused as to how we'll be able to get the secret key purely through a script relying solely on the API.

If we have to log in to send the template to generate the key, then that makes using the API to send multiple variations of a telegram even less practical than just simulating user input.

Yes, I think the templates are only for sending the same message to several recipients - log in on the website, create a template and get a secret key for that template, then you can use it through the API. If you want to create a new template, you have to do it through the website (as you have to authenticate).

[Nightkill the Emperor]

In the same manner that one can buy a Supporter account for another nation, can we buy Postmaster and Postmaster General accounts for friends? Apologies if this has been asked already.

[Laevendell]

In the same manner that one can buy a Supporter account for another nation, can we buy Postmaster and Postmaster General accounts for friends? Apologies if this has been asked already.

Yes, you will be able to: viewtopic.php?p=12789120#p12789120

[Glen-Rhodes]

The problem is that creating dynamic telegrams from multiple conditions isn't linear. I don't want to bog things down with mathematics, but the more variations you add, the bigger and bigger the total amount of possible variations there will be. Which is why I thought it best to just create the dynamic telegrams myself and send them without using the API.

What are you planning on doing? I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out how you are customizing the telegrams that much.

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Conditional statements within the templates themselves?

Yes. Some like this:

Code: Select all

Hello %%NATION%%,

<!-- IF UNSTATUS equals "Non-member" -->I see you aren't a member of the World Assembly. Our delegate really needs your endorsement, so please consider joining!

<!-- ELSE -->I see you're a member of the World Assembly! That's great! If you haven't yet, you should check out our forum, where you can discuss and vote on the current resolutions on the floor.

Or whatever. It would be complicated for the average user, but that's alright. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to do something like this, but it's not the first time a game would have done it.

[Lordieth]

The problem is that creating dynamic telegrams from multiple conditions isn't linear. I don't want to bog things down with mathematics, but the more variations you add, the bigger and bigger the total amount of possible variations there will be. Which is why I thought it best to just create the dynamic telegrams myself and send them without using the API.

What are you planning on doing? I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out how you are customizing the telegrams that much.

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Conditional statements within the templates themselves?

Yes. Some like this:

Code: Select all

Hello %%NATION%%,

<!-- IF UNSTATUS equals "Non-member" -->I see you aren't a member of the World Assembly. Our delegate really needs your endorsement, so please consider joining!

<!-- ELSE -->I see you're a member of the World Assembly! That's great! If you haven't yet, you should check out our forum, where you can discuss and vote on the current resolutions on the floor.

Or whatever. It would be complicated for the average user, but that's alright. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to do something like this, but it's not the first time a game would have done it.

It's a bit difficult to be too specific about what I'm doing to customise my telegrams, but essentially I'm trying to create a telegram system that has a more humanistic feel than just using template design.

There's also going to be situations where automated telegrams can be used for logistical purposes in keeping members of a region updated on particular events. Again, I don't want to go into great detail, but the telegrams will have to be contextual based on particular changes to the game.

A basic set of conditional statements would be interesting to have, however I think for what I have in mind I would probably exceed their scope.

[Flibbleites]

A question about the WA campaigning TGs, is it possible to only opt out of just General Assembly or Security Council TGs or is it all or nothing?

It's not currently possibly to opt-out of WA Campaign messages based on the Council of the proposal. What I've done is start with the four types that I thought were most obvious (recruitment, WA campaign, regional, and other), but if there turns out to be demand for other categories, I can look at adding more.

Well, looking through the regional tags I can see that there are 23 regions that allow GA campaigning but don't allow SC campaigning and 19 that prohibit GA campaigning while allowing SC campaigning, so there appears to be at least some demand.

[Kingborough]

A question, sorry if I've missed this - will we be able to delete our own sent messages?

[Klaus Devestatorie]

also, with stamp pre-send categories, along with newly founded and newly refounded nations; will we have a "new nations entering own region" category as well? Would be neat for welcome telegrams and the like.

[Weed]

Also, to be clear, the welcome messages that feeders and sinkers send out to welcome a nation to their region would not count as recruitment would it? If it doesn't it wouldn't be in queue behind all the bought messages as well as the autoscripted ones, which means it won't be shown days later when "Welcome to The South Pacific, you find yourself in a region..." is no longer accurate or relevant if they move.

[Porkenistan]

How do i send a telegram

[Eldarion Telcontar]

All I'm saying now is that UCR recruitment is stupid, stamps are stupid and Max lied to us. Don't be surprised everyone when there are no more large UCRs (+300) in a few months and when they roll out even more things rich kids can buy.

[Tramiar]

All I'm saying now is that UCR recruitment is stupid, stamps are stupid and Max lied to us. Don't be surprised everyone when there are no more large UCRs (+300) in a few months and when they roll out even more things rich kids can buy.

That seems like an exaggeration...

[Eldarion Telcontar]

All I'm saying now is that UCR recruitment is stupid, stamps are stupid and Max lied to us. Don't be surprised everyone when there are no more large UCRs (+300) in a few months and when they roll out even more things rich kids can buy.

That seems like an exaggeration...

Sorry, I'm not saying every UCR, regions like XKI, Europeia, TNI and maybe two or three more UCRs who keep up will be fine, but don't expect to see that many emerging regions a few months after implementation, the newer regions who aren't as internally stable and don't have the way of getting money together to spend won't be very well off.

[Glen-Rhodes]

All I'm saying now is that UCR recruitment is stupid, stamps are stupid and Max lied to us. Don't be surprised everyone when there are no more large UCRs (+300) in a few months and when they roll out even more things rich kids can buy.

NationStates doesn't need more large UCRs. We don't need more regions that are too big for their own good. 30 regions with active communities of 10 nations each is better for NationStates than one region with 300 people and a relatively little community to speak of.

Not that I endorse anything you're saying in this post. But yet again, you guys need to get over the obsession with large numbers. Success isn't defined by population.

[Eldarion Telcontar]

All I'm saying now is that UCR recruitment is stupid, stamps are stupid and Max lied to us. Don't be surprised everyone when there are no more large UCRs (+300) in a few months and when they roll out even more things rich kids can buy.

Not that I endorse anything you're saying in this post. But yet again, you guys need to get over the obsession with large numbers. Success isn't defined by population.

Astonishing, isn't it, that Europeia, TNI and XKI all have among the largest populations, as well as, what, you say? Active members? Mindblowing.

[Feux]

All I'm saying now is that UCR recruitment is stupid, stamps are stupid and Max lied to us. Don't be surprised everyone when there are no more large UCRs (+300) in a few months and when they roll out even more things rich kids can buy.

NationStates doesn't need more large UCRs. We don't need more regions that are too big for their own good. 30 regions with active communities of 10 nations each is better for NationStates than one region with 300 people and a relatively little community to speak of.

Not that I endorse anything you're saying in this post. But yet again, you guys need to get over the obsession with large numbers. Success isn't defined by population.

A great example of this would be every GCR.

[The Most Glorious Hack]

(Image)

This isn't 4Chan. Don't do that.

[Strawberrry Fields]

I'm also not seeing anything regarding Recruitment becoming easier. In fact, I see it potentially becoming harder if someone now has to click that their Telegram is a recruiting Telegram, each time they send.

A big difference is that recruiting has previously been limited by region, and to only a few of those. That was non-ideal because some nations in the "OK-to-recruit" regions didn't want to receive recruitment messages, and some people in the "not-OK" regions did.

It's now going to be limited by nation. So if you're a nation, you can choose whether you want those messages, regardless of where you live. And if you're a recruiter, you will have a much larger pool of nations you can reach.

Hmm this really concerns me, I assume the default setting will be to allow for recruitment ads, and thus majority of nations can be recruited at any given time.

Noticing the "Who will you recruitspam-attack with the new TG rules?" thread - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=222963

See I feel the feeders are gaining alot here, and for some time have been less "feeders" then the original intent.

Now to me, having nations automatically founded in your region seems like a luxury, no need to work and build the region. I would gladly stop recruiting and put up with adspam and recruiting in my region if we had new nations regularly founded within the region.

Now not only do they continue to get new nations founded in there region free, they no longer have the trade off of being the only place to recruit.

You can recruit in my player made region and I don't get free nations founded there. Seems rather unfair.

At the very least the default should automatically shift to "not recruitable" while in a player-made region unless changed manually.

Or maybe even eliminate the feeders being feeders, have ten random regions be the feeders who spawn nations for a day or week, then ten new random ones or something.

The feeders can already suppress ads, and even use there size to raid defenseless founderless regions who adspam, now saying you can recruit anywhere and loosing the one trade off a feeder has is a bit much in my eyes.

You make the feeders have everything, and anyone who hopes to keep a player made region alive is going to need money.

[Galiantus II]

A big difference is that recruiting has previously been limited by region, and to only a few of those. That was non-ideal because some nations in the "OK-to-recruit" regions didn't want to receive recruitment messages, and some people in the "not-OK" regions did.

It's now going to be limited by nation. So if you're a nation, you can choose whether you want those messages, regardless of where you live. And if you're a recruiter, you will have a much larger pool of nations you can reach.

Hmm this really concerns me, I assume the default setting will be to allow for recruitment ads, and thus majority of nations can be recruited at any given time.

If the default setting was any different it would cause huge problems. The ablility to turn off recruitment messages should be an active decision that happens after the nation is created, not beforehand, and not automatically off.

Noticing the "Who will you recruitspam-attack with the new TG rules?" thread - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=222963

See I feel the feeders are gaining alot here, and for some time have been less "feeders" then the original intent.

Now to me, having nations automatically founded in your region seems like a luxury, no need to work and build the region. I would gladly stop recruiting and put up with adspam and recruiting in my region if we had new nations regularly founded within the region.

Now not only do they continue to get new nations founded in there region free, they no longer have the trade off of being the only place to recruit.

You can recruit in my player made region and I don't get free nations founded there. Seems rather unfair.

Yes. This gives GCRs a lot more power. The way I described it, recruiting against the feeders is like bailing with a thimble. Under the new system, if all the feeders decided to go to war against even a foundered region, that foundered region would hardly grow, if at all. This is a very unbalanced system which takes power from UCRs to empower the GCRs. Now, I know many NS staff favor the GCRs: they are part of the "system", the "elite", the "norm", but for the safety of everyone else, if this is implemented I want it to be illegal for the GCRs to recruit. The system does it for them, and if they get to recruit they will have a huge advantage.

At the very least the default should automatically shift to "not recruitable" while in a player-made region unless changed manually.

This is the first thing you said which I have to disagree with. The rule modification adds a new layer to the game which I think is very good, and if we were to do that it would make it hard for the new "UCR to UCR" recruiting. The real problem is the possibility of "Feeder to UCR" or "Sinker to UCR" recruiting, where the GCRs could recruit the very people the UCRs had to work to get. See, if one UCR recruits from another UCR, both the first UCR and the second UCR had to convince the player to move regions. Not so in feeders and sinkers. They essentially get free recruitment, and could easily put all their effort to recruiting from UCRs they dislike, who would have to put in nearly the same amount of effort just to maintain their size.

Or maybe even eliminate the feeders being feeders, have ten random regions be the feeders who spawn nations for a day or week, then ten new random ones or something.

There's a thought. Personally, though, I would prefer it if all non-passworded regions spawned new nations, and if the probability of growth was proportional to the number of nations in that region. That way the feeders would start with the highest growth rate, and the change would feel gradual, rather than a sudden change. Also, it would help prevent players from starting in extremely small regions, where they are more likely to quit playing because of a lack of activity.

The feeders can already suppress ads, and even use there size to raid defenseless founderless regions who adspam, now saying you can recruit anywhere and loosing the one trade off a feeder has is a bit much in my eyes.

You make the feeders have everything, and anyone who hopes to keep a player made region alive is going to need money.

That is the height of this ordeal. The fact that so few people know how to use a recruitment script, let alone recruit, will drive people to buy stamps, which will become a definite game advantage to have. The fact that the UCRs will have to pay for their recruitment with real money, while the feeders get to sit back and get it all done - not just with no effort, but - for free will be the death of the existence of most UCRs. The real creators for NS, the founders of UCRs and their respective communities, will likely gather in a handful of regions of their own, and will focus their efforts on taking control of the GCRs, to rid themselves of the great inequality.

[[violet]]

Templates remain valid forever.

Really! That's really interesting. You're not concerned about storage space?

Not yet! We'll see what happens.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

You mention 'Postmaster' and 'Postmaster-General' accounts which have access to special features.
I assume those of us who possess the respective forum titles aren't actually entitled to such feature-bestowed accounts?

[[violet]]

From what I understand of the new API system, sending telegrams via it requires the use of the tag:API. Which, If I am understanding this correctly, means that if I wanted to send a unique telegram every time, that I would have to request a new key for each new message I needed to send first, then make a call with that key to send that message to just one nation, then keep repeating that process. Which seems terribly inefficient.

If there were a simple way of sending an individual telegram to an individual nation via the API, then I'm all for that. but I'm quite happy to just use cURL and do it through simulated user input. As I said. I don't even have to load the nation's page to send the telegram, so server load should not be an issue.

I can't figure out why you want an automated way of sending TGs if the content is "unique every time." If you're composing unique content and sending it to unique nations, that's just regular TG-sending.

The reason for an API and a template system for manual recruiters is to ease the process when the TG content is not unique each time; i.e. you want to send the same message to lots of recipients.

[[violet]]

You mention 'Postmaster' and 'Postmaster-General' accounts which have access to special features.
I assume those of us who possess the respective forum titles aren't actually entitled to such feature-bestowed accounts?

Correct. We just stole the names.