[DRAFT] Spitting Feathers

[Bears Armed]

Yes, this draft is still at a very basic stage. I'm posting it now because this idea actually arose in another thread, and if the Mods decide to split the relevant posts off from there then I wanted this thread to be already extant as a suitable destination for them.

[Title] Spitting Feathers
[Validity] Homosexuality is legal; television is legal [if that is a potential validity factor?)[/i]

[Description] A group calling itself 'Gays Really Irritated Media-wise' (or 'GRIM' for short) has launched a protest outside the Ministry of Culture, complaining about the stereotyped way in which gay men are commonly portrayed in the nation's films and television dramas.

[Option 1] "It isn't right," proclaims GRIM spokesman RANDOMMALENAME, who recently retired from service as a Master Sergeant in the Special Forces. "Almost every time the film-makers or programme-makers identify a male character in one of their productions as gay, except sometimes when they're telling dramatized stories about real people, they use the same sort of traits -- like wearing feather boas or heavy make-up, or speech patters that use lots of innuendos -- to indicate the fact. It's more than time that they recognised some of us are actually manly men who just happen to be attracted to other men rather than to women and who don't conform to that pattern."

[Validity1] Nation has military

[Effect 1] (not yet written)

[Option 2] "It isn't right," proclaims GRIM spokesman RANDOMMALENAME, who manages a Wilderness Adventure Holidays operation. "Almost every time the film-makers or programme-makers identify a male character in one of their productions as gay, except sometimes when they're telling dramatized stories about real people, they use the same sort of traits -- like wearing feather boas or heavy make-up, or speech patters that use lots of innuendos -- to indicate the fact. It's more than time that they recognised some of us are actually manly men who just happen to be attracted to other men rather than to women and who don't conform to that pattern."

[Validity 2] Nation does not have military

[Effect 2] (identical to Effect 1)

[Option 3] (not yet written: Film or TV producer insists that stereotypes have to be used because that's what most of the audience expects and it helps them to differentiate more easily between the characters_ mentions several other examples [one of them an ethnic stereotype; one is that 'independent' scientists are mad, or at least highly eccentric; another =?) as well...)

[Validity 3] unrestricted

[Effect 3] (not yet written)

Note: Options 1 & 2 are identical except for Validity & the speaker's stated occupation.
Original title was 'GRIM-ly Gay'.

[Terrabod]

I know this will disrupt the posting order if our other posts are moved here, but I couldn't wait.

Title suggestion: "Spitting Feathers" (reference to both rage and feather boas)

You could avoid the validity issue by changing speaker 1 to an ex-chief of police or similar. He can stay gruff, but you don't need two near-identical options.

I'd like to see an option with an ignorant [right-winger] insisting the stereotypes are correct, because the only gay people they've seen are the ones walking down the street wearing feather boas (this idea, prominent in RL, is that all gay men are very feminine because those are the ones you can spot - a sort of sampling bias). Not sure what the outcome of that would be, policy-wise. This character could mention some of the other stereotypes you mentioned, like they actually believe that scientists must look Einstein-ish or whatever.

The producer idea is also interesting. As far as I know, the feminine stereotype is overused in film and TV as a result of either (1) the executives not knowing what gay people are like in the real world (see above about sampling bias) or (2) the executives want to tell the heterosexual audience that a character is gay without having to instead show them having meaningful same-sex romantic relationships (gross) or even sex (revolting) even though the heterosexual couples are Game-of-Thronesing it up twice every episode.

[Bears Armed]

I know this will disrupt the posting order if our other posts are moved here, but I couldn't wait.

Title suggestion: "Spitting Feathers" (reference to both rage and feather boas)

Good idea. I'll change it.

You could avoid the validity issue by changing speaker 1 to an ex-chief of police or similar. He can stay gruff, but you don't need two near-identical options.

I'll think about this, but how well would it work for nations that don't have police? I know that Editors in the past have said that 'Police Chiefs' of some sort can be presumed anyway, but I'd rather not confuse the players of police-less nations...

I'd like to see an option with an ignorant [right-winger] insisting the stereotypes are correct, because the only gay people they've seen are the ones walking down the street wearing feather boas (this idea, prominent in RL, is that all gay men are very feminine because those are the ones you can spot - a sort of sampling bias). Not sure what the outcome of that would be, policy-wise. This character could mention some of the other stereotypes you mentioned, like they actually believe that scientists must look Einstein-ish or whatever.

The producer idea is also interesting. As far as I know, the feminine stereotype is overused in film and TV as a result of either (1) the executives not knowing what gay people are like in the real world (see above about sampling bias) or (2) the executives want to tell the heterosexual audience that a character is gay without having to instead show them having meaningful same-sex romantic relationships (gross) or even sex (revolting) even though the heterosexual couples are Game-of-Thronesing it up twice every episode.

Some interesting thoughts there... but one of the stereotypes to which I object is the ignorant characters so often being described as right-wingers. How about an ignorant character whose political views aren't implied -- let alone specified -- or even a left-wing one, instead, for a change?

[Terrabod]

Some interesting thoughts there... but one of the stereotypes to which I object is the ignorant characters so often being described as right-wingers. How about an ignorant character whose political views aren't implied -- let alone specified -- or even a left-wing one, instead, for a change?

I just based that on my own lived experience as a member of the LGBT+ community, but it's your issue. The "right-wing" thing was in square brackets for a reason, anyway - it's nothing more than a suggestion within a suggestion.

[Daarwyrth]

Some interesting thoughts there... but one of the stereotypes to which I object is the ignorant characters so often being described as right-wingers. How about an ignorant character whose political views aren't implied -- let alone specified -- or even a left-wing one, instead, for a change?

I just based that on my own lived experience as a member of the LGBT+ community, but it's your issue. The "right-wing" thing was in square brackets for a reason, anyway - it's nothing more than a suggestion within a suggestion.

As a fellow member of the LGBTQ+ community, usually any bias or bigotry I faced was either from a "right-winger" or a religious person, and most often a combination of both. So I can understand the tendency to want to depict intolerant people like that.

Yet if you want to break with stereotypes in this draft you could go for an intolerant radical left-winger perhaps? I mean, even though I rarely if ever encounter those, they have to be around. Or someone who is a fierce supporter of evolution and opposes same sex relationships because of that.

[Bears Armed]

I just based that on my own lived experience as a member of the LGBT+ community, but it's your issue. The "right-wing" thing was in square brackets for a reason, anyway - it's nothing more than a suggestion within a suggestion.

As a fellow member of the LGBTQ+ community, usually any bias or bigotry I faced was either from a "right-winger" or a religious person, and most often a combination of both. So I can understand the tendency to want to depict intolerant people like that.

Yet if you want to break with stereotypes in this draft you could go for an intolerant radical left-winger perhaps? I mean, even though I rarely if ever encounter those, they have to be around. Or someone who is a fierce supporter of evolution and opposes same sex relationships because of that.

n England, apart from perhaps the [relatively scarce] far-right, that hostility is mostly a religious matter... and the largest group of fundamentalist followers of any Abrahamic religion here nowadays is probably among the country's Muslim community, who have been generally more likely (on average] to vote Labour rather than Conservative...
I'll think further about this.

[Steelfeather Rapture 1]

You should trim the writing on those first two options, as it scans better without this phrase: "rather than to women and who don't conform to that pattern." Just bring the end of the quotation in more, like this:
"It isn't right," proclaims GRIM spokesman RANDOMMALENAME, who recently retired from service as a Master Sergeant in the Special Forces. "Almost every time the film-makers or programme-makers identify a male character in one of their productions as gay, except sometimes when they're telling dramatized stories about real people, they use the same sort of traits -- like wearing feather boas or heavy make-up, or speech patters that use lots of innuendos -- to indicate the fact. It's more than time that they recognised some of us are actually manly men who just happen to be attracted to other men."

I have furthermore a question about this. What policy change is being requested here? What should actually be done differently in the nations that pick this option?

P.S. I don't know if this is a reasonable request, but please send me a telegram if further input from me is requested. I've tried to post two issue ideas to the forum, but I'm almost too scared of the forum to participate at all.
Scared robot dragon image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VSve6W ... sp=sharing

[Bears Armed]

I intend to resume work on this prospective issue quite soon, now that l can concentrate well enough to do some drafting again and have got 'The Birdman of Pelicanz' -- progress on which had also stalled, at around the same time that progress on this one did, for several months -- completed & submitted. If you want to make any suggestions about how this should go, you've got maybe a week before I put together & post the next version.

[Pelicanz]

Helloz, whatz happends to ourz leader, The Birdman? Why is he spitting feathers now????

[Honeydewistania]

Is there much difference between this and the Bigtopians in TV one? It's just that Bigtopians and racism have been changed to gays and homophobia. Oppressed minority demands fairer portrayal, TV executive tells them to back off etc

[Australian rePublic]

Why is this a government issue? Complain to the TV companies and/or write your own show

[Bears Armed]

You should trim the writing on those first two options, as it scans better without this phrase: "rather than to women and who don't conform to that pattern." Just bring the end of the quotation in more, like this:
"It isn't right," proclaims GRIM spokesman RANDOMMALENAME, who recently retired from service as a Master Sergeant in the Special Forces. "Almost every time the film-makers or programme-makers identify a male character in one of their productions as gay, except sometimes when they're telling dramatized stories about real people, they use the same sort of traits -- like wearing feather boas or heavy make-up, or speech patters that use lots of innuendos -- to indicate the fact. It's more than time that they recognised some of us are actually manly men who just happen to be attracted to other men."

I have furthermore a question about this. What policy change is being requested here? What should actually be done differently in the nations that pick this option?

After trimming what he's already saying, I'll have to add his suggestion: For depictions of real people, only shown thus if provably accurate in those cases; for depictions of fictional people, only if the writer/artist/actor/whatever is himself gay and considers the depiction acceptable... or something along those lines. The actual [OOC] stat effects, I will -- of course -- have to leave for the Editors to decide.

P.S. I don't know if this is a reasonable request, but please send me a telegram if further input from me is requested.

Noted, will do.

I've tried to post two issue ideas to the forum, but I'm almost too scared of the forum to participate at all. Scared robot dragon image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VSve6W ... sp=sharing

I assure you, this forum is a lot more welcoming to newcomers -- and less scary -- than the G.A. forum...

Is there much difference between this and the Bigtopians in TV one? It's just that Bigtopians and racism have been changed to gays and homophobia. Oppressed minority demands fairer portrayal, TV executive tells them to back off etc

That's a good point, even with the recently-announced greater tolerance of overlaps. I'll drop the bit about the TV executive...
New plan:
1st option is this complainant;
2nd option is somebody (probably LEADER's troublesome brother, who's already appeared in a number of issues) who's startled to learn that there are gay men going around indistinguishably from 'straight' ones and wants to make their wearing of feather boas when in public compulsory!;
3rd option is one of LEADER's staff, or a government minister, who's shocked at that suggestion and wants to have the government show its tolerance by including a 'Rainbow' badge in public & working wear for all government employees (including members of the government).

How does that sound?

Why is this a government issue?

This is NationStates: Everything is "a government issue".
(More seriously the complainant will be asking to have a law passed about this...)

[Trotterdam]

for depictions of fictional people, only if the writer/artist/actor/whatever is himself gay and considers the depiction acceptable... or something along those lines.

You'd be surprised how many people are willing to embarrass themselves if there's enough money on the line.

Anyway, it's clear that some effeminate gay men do exist, even if not all or even most of them are like that. To be sure, effeminate straight men exist too, so that's another demographic that might be annoyed by this stereotype.

In many works that actually show a gay couple, rather than just a single gay character who's mostly there to make the protagonist unconfortable with unwelcome flirting, there's a tendency to show one as more manly and the other as more feminine, thus sorta retaining "standard" gender dynamics even though they're both the same sex. So that's one way in which non-feminine gay men do already show up in the media, but which is still a problematic stereotype of its own. Even though, again, it's sometimes true.

And of course it isn't just homosexual men with this problem, since women have the "tomboys are butch lesbians" stereotype (although more girly lesbians are also relatively common for the not-so-respectable reason that many straight male authors and viewers find them hot...).

When it comes down to it, the problem is one of statistics. Any individual character or pairing is something that could plausible happen in real life, it's just when taken in aggregate across many different works that you realize the frequency distributions in fiction are grossly different from those in real life.