[REDRAFT] A Little Bit of Sympathy

[Dabarastan]

A coalition of grieving women has gathered in @@CAPITAL@@ Square, demanding the country's parental leave legislation be expanded to also include mothers who have miscarried during their pregnancy.

1- "What you are putting women through is cruel and unfair," berates @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@, the group's spokeswoman. "Imagine after the most traumatic experience of your life, when you are at your lowest and feel the deepest pangs of sorrow, your boss calls to ask why you aren't in the office. After miscarrying, a woman needs access to a full suite of services: at least six months off work and as much health care and counseling as she needs. I beg you @@LEADER@@, look into your heart and introduce miscarriage leave!"
Effect: women return from miscarriage leave with a spring in their step and a new lease on life

2- "Look, if anyone's sympathetic to women in this circumstance, it's me," opines your Minister for Affordable Solutions. "But everyone wants more services when someone else is picking up the tab. Let's just ensure mothers can qualify for a few extra days off under the current bereavement leave arrangements, and maybe even throw in a Feel Better Soon card for good measure. We're not made of money, you know."
Effect: @@LEADER@@'s sympathy cards offer cold comfort to those in mourning

3- "I don't wanna point carrot sticks," muses pregnant wellbeing advocate Rachel Radish, munching on a raw vegetable platter. "But most miscarriages are caused by women carelessly neglecting their diet and health. Just mandate that every expectant mother must do regular exercise, maintain a healthy diet and take 400 mcg of folic acid every day. If she fails to meet her requirements, then she loses the right to keep her kid. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"
Effect: pregnant women are literally gagging for a dose of their compulsory meds

4- Your cantankerous geriatric neighbour, who had until now been pretending to nap in your office armchair, throws his cane across the room in rage. "Poppycock! Back in my day we didn't need the bloody government to spoon feed us! I used to walk to work with my arm only hanging on by a tendon, for eight days a week until my eyes fell out of their sockets! Get rid of all parental leave and tell these people to get some work done for once!"
Effect: children must make appointments to spend time with their overworked parents

A coalition of grieving women has gathered in @@CAPITAL@@ Square, demanding the country's parental leave legislation be expanded to also include mothers who have miscarried during their pregnancy.

1- "What you are putting women through is cruel and unfair," berates @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@, the group's spokeswoman. "Imagine after the most traumatic experience of your life, when you are at your lowest and feel the deepest pangs of sorrow, your boss calls to ask why you aren't in the office. After miscarrying, a woman needs access to a full suite of services: at least six months off work and as much health care and counseling as she needs. I beg you @@LEADER@@, look into your heart and introduce miscarriage leave!"
Effect: women return from miscarriage leave with a spring in their step and a new lease on life

2- "I don't wanna point carrot sticks," muses pregnant wellbeing advocate Rachel Radish, munching on a raw vegetable platter. "But most miscarriages are caused by women carelessly neglecting their diet and health. Just mandate that every expectant mother must do regular exercise, maintain a healthy diet and take 400 mcg of folic acid every day. If she fails to meet her requirements, then she loses the right to keep her kid. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"
Effect: pregnant women are literally gagging for a dose of their compulsory meds

3- Your cantankerous geriatric neighbour, who had until now been pretending to nap in your office armchair, throws his cane across the room in rage. "Poppycock! Back in my day we didn't need the bloody government to spoon feed us! I used to walk to work with my arm only hanging on by a tendon, for eight days a week until my eyes fell out of their sockets! Get rid of all parental leave and tell these people to get some work done for once!"
Effect: children must make appointments to spend time with their overworked parents

A coalition of grieving women has gathered in @@capital@@ Square, demanding the country's parental leave legislation be expanded to include mothers who have miscarried during their pregnancy.

1- "What you are putting women through is cruel and unfair," berates @@randomnamefemale@@, the group's spokeswoman. "Imagine after the most traumatic experience of your life, when you are at your lowest and feel the deepest pangs of sorrow, your boss calls to ask why you aren't in the office. After miscarrying, a woman needs access to a full suite of services: at least six months off work and as much health care and counselling as she needs. I beg you @@leader@@, look into your heart and introduce miscarriage leave!"
Effect: women return from miscarriage leave with a spring in their step and a new lease on life

2- "I don't wanna point carrot sticks," muses pregnant wellbeing advocate Rachel Radish, munching on a raw vegetable platter, "but most miscarriages are caused by women carelessly neglecting their diet and health. Just mandate that every expectant mother must exercise regularly, maintain a healthy diet and take 400 mcg of folic acid every day. If she fails to meet her requirements, then she loses the right to keep her kid. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"
Effect: pregnant women are literally gagging for a dose of their compulsory meds

3- Your cantankerous geriatric neighbour, who had until now been pretending to nap in your office armchair, throws his cane across the room in a fit of rage. "Poppycock! Back in my day, we didn't need the bloody government to spoon-feed us! I used to walk to work with my arm only hanging on by a tendon, for eight days a week until my eyes fell out of their sockets! Get rid of all parental leave and tell these people to get some work done for once!"
Effect: children must make appointments to spend time with their overworked parents

This issue is co-authored by Jim the Baptist

The Issue

A coalition of grieving women has gathered in @@capital@@ Square, demanding the country's sick leave legislation be expanded to provide additional paid time-off work for women who have miscarried during their pregnancy.

1- "The current sick leave arrangements are far from good enough!" berates @@randomnamefemale@@, the group's spokeswoman. "Do you even understand how long it takes to recover after enduring what can only be described as the most horrific experience of a woman's life? Men don't have miscarriages, but for some reason, men and women get the same amount of sick leave! What if we also catch a cold that year? Women who've miscarried should be entitled to an additional six months of sick leave that they can access over the mental and physical trauma they've been through. Oh, and it wouldn't hurt for you to throw in a few complimentary counselling sessions either."
Effect: women return from miscarriage leave with a spring in their step and a new lease on life

2- University of @@capital@@ Professor, Peter Jordanson, leans forward in his chair and clasps his hands together. "And what about all of the health issues that only affect men? There's not a woman alive who's suffered from prostate cancer, Peyronie's Disease, or the dreaded Alport syndrome. Yet I don't see any angry groups of men outside demanding special sick leave rights that exclude the ladies - do you? Our biological sex determines our predisposition to a unique set of potential health risks. That's true for both men and women. Therefore, if you really feel like being charitable, but also fair, then you ought to expand sick leave entitlements for everyone - regardless of what's between their legs."
Effect: the most lucrative aspect of a doctor's work is writing endless medical certificates for the nation's unproductive workers

3- "And you know what that'll lead to? A whole bunch of sissies chucking sickies just 'cause they woke up with a stuffy nose!" muses pregnant wellbeing advocate Rachel Radish, munching on a raw vegetable platter. "Besides, the harsh reality is that most miscarriages are unfortunately caused by women carelessly neglecting their diet and health. Just mandate that every expectant mother must exercise regularly, maintain a healthy diet and take 400 micrograms of folic acid every day. If she fails to meet her requirements, then she loses the right to keep her kid. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"
Effect: pregnant women are literally gagging for a dose of their compulsory meds

[Australian rePublic]

As long as regular maternal leave or shorter? It's an important distinction. Will it also apply to miscarriage fathers?

[Trotterdam]

Do you get (paid) bereavement leave on the death of a non-fetal family member? That seems more pertinent here than maternal leave.

Incidentally, you probably already got pregnancy leave before the miscarriage happened. (The Maternity Leave policy can be interpreted as applying to either pre-birth or post-birth leave, but has been officially confirmed as at least someting including the former, as explanation for how it can be compatible with the Child Self-Rearing policy.) If you had already scheduled nine months of leave when you learned you were pregnant, it's easy enough to wait out the full nine months anyway even if the baby miscarried five months in. If that's not a legally-protected right, you'd probably have would-be mothers simply "forgetting" to let their employers know that they're actually not pregnant anymore.

[Candensia]

I'm not convinced option 2 is doing anything that option 1 isn't. I think a more viable counter-option would be something along the lines of option 3: oppose bereavement leave following miscarriages, but expand health services (for everyone) that will (hopefully) reduce the overall frequency of miscarriages, with existing leave policies remaining in place.

[Jim the Baptist]

Will it also apply to miscarriage fathers?

For the time being we haven't thought to extend the policy to fathers, just because that doesn't seem to happen generally speaking in the real world, and that could be a whole separate issue (like maternity leave and paternity leave are separate issues also).

Do you get (paid) bereavement leave on the death of a non-fetal family member? That seems more pertinent here than maternal leave.

Incidentally, you probably already got pregnancy leave before the miscarriage happened. (The Maternity Leave policy can be interpreted as applying to either pre-birth or post-birth leave, but has been officially confirmed as at least someting including the former, as explanation for how it can be compatible with the Child Self-Rearing policy.) If you had already scheduled nine months of leave when you learned you were pregnant, it's easy enough to wait out the full nine months anyway even if the baby miscarried five months in. If that's not a legally-protected right, you'd probably have would-be mothers simply "forgetting" to let their employers know that they're actually not pregnant anymore.

Firstly, paid leave in the event of a miscarriage, is generally not covered under bereavement leave. According to the Wikipedia page about miscarriage leave, there are only 6 countries in the world that offer miscarriage leave, and the only one that seems to explicitly cover it under bereavement leave is New Zealand. So we feel it's pretty reasonable to assume that in @@NAME@@, paid bereavement leave would probably not cover the death of a non-fetal family member, thus justifying the existence of a new policy for it.

Also, the maternity leave policy is six months (not 9 months), so there would not be any cases where mothers would have 9 months of scheduled leave, miscarry 5 months in, and then wait out the remainder of their leave without reporting their change of circumstances to their employer. Women would have incentive to notify the government/their employer if they did have a miscarriage, because as we have explained in option 1, they would get an extra 6 months of leave from the point that they miscarry (resulting in 6 months miscarriage leave plus whatever maternity leave they have already taken), whereas they would only get a maximum of 6 months if they just took their maternity leave and did not report their miscarriage.

I'm not convinced option 2 is doing anything that option 1 isn't. I think a more viable counter-option would be something along the lines of option 3: oppose bereavement leave following miscarriages, but expand health services (for everyone) that will (hopefully) reduce the overall frequency of miscarriages, with existing leave policies remaining in place.

We agree that option 2 was just a half-measure of option 1 and not really necessary, so we have removed it.
Also, we like the idea of expanding health services through option 3 (now option 2), although expanding health services is really just code for the compassionate nation which will probably go for option 1. Therefore, to make the issue more interesting, we think option 2 should counter option 1 with a more authoritative stance.

There is a new draft up now which hasn't really changed much, although that's not for being stubborn as we are still open to any feedback.

[Dabarastan]

Bump.

[Dabarastan]

Bump

[Sacara]

Solid issue.

A coalition of grieving women has gathered in @@CAPITAL@@ Square, demanding the country's parental leave legislation be expanded to also include mothers who have miscarried during their pregnancy.

I don't think you need 'also' in this sentence. To be honest, while this premise is fine, I'm wondering if you can find a way to make it more interesting... Not necessary, of course, just me thinking out loud.

Effect: women return from miscarriage leave with a spring in their step and a new lease on life

Oh, jeez. This effect line...

2- "I don't wanna point carrot sticks," muses pregnant wellbeing advocate Rachel Radish, munching on a raw vegetable platter. "But most miscarriages are caused by women carelessly neglecting their diet and health. Just mandate that every expectant mother must do regular exercise, maintain a healthy diet and take 400 mcg of folic acid every day. If she fails to meet her requirements, then she loses the right to keep her kid. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"

Since the speaker is continuing the sentence, get replace the period with a comma and make the b lowercase. Also, I feel like it would flow better as "exercise regularly" instead of "do regular exercise".

Your cantankerous geriatric neighbour, who had until now been pretending to nap in your office armchair, throws his cane across the room in rage. "Poppycock! Back in my day we didn't need the bloody government to spoon feed us! I used to walk to work with my arm only hanging on by a tendon, for eight days a week until my eyes fell out of their sockets! Get rid of all parental leave and tell these people to get some work done for once!"

I feel like "in a fit of rage" would flow better than "in rage". Add a comma after "day". I think it is "spoon-feed".

[Jim the Baptist]

Solid issue.

A coalition of grieving women has gathered in @@CAPITAL@@ Square, demanding the country's parental leave legislation be expanded to also include mothers who have miscarried during their pregnancy.

I don't think you need 'also' in this sentence. To be honest, while this premise is fine, I'm wondering if you can find a way to make it more interesting... Not necessary, of course, just me thinking out loud.

Effect: women return from miscarriage leave with a spring in their step and a new lease on life

Oh, jeez. This effect line...

2- "I don't wanna point carrot sticks," muses pregnant wellbeing advocate Rachel Radish, munching on a raw vegetable platter. "But most miscarriages are caused by women carelessly neglecting their diet and health. Just mandate that every expectant mother must do regular exercise, maintain a healthy diet and take 400 mcg of folic acid every day. If she fails to meet her requirements, then she loses the right to keep her kid. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"

Since the speaker is continuing the sentence, get replace the period with a comma and make the b lowercase. Also, I feel like it would flow better as "exercise regularly" instead of "do regular exercise".

Your cantankerous geriatric neighbour, who had until now been pretending to nap in your office armchair, throws his cane across the room in rage. "Poppycock! Back in my day we didn't need the bloody government to spoon feed us! I used to walk to work with my arm only hanging on by a tendon, for eight days a week until my eyes fell out of their sockets! Get rid of all parental leave and tell these people to get some work done for once!"

I feel like "in a fit of rage" would flow better than "in rage". Add a comma after "day". I think it is "spoon-feed".

Thank you very much for your feedback. The reason why the premise doesn't sound very interesting is that we wanted to keep it consistent with the other two issues related to this draft, namely #174 (about maternity leave) and #304 (about paternity leave). Both of those issues follow a pattern in the premise of: "A coalition of X has/have ..." joined forces and are petitioning/demanding what they want. We thought anyone familiar with those issues might appreciate the inter-issue reference.

We've also updated the issue in line with all of your other suggestions.

[Dabarastan]

Bump

[Candlewhisper Archive]

A coalition of grieving women has gathered in @@CAPITAL@@ Square, demanding the country's parental leave legislation be expanded to also include mothers who have miscarried during their pregnancy.

Makes no sense. If they need leave, then they can and will get signed off for sick leave following the miscarriage, for either physical or emotional reasons. No miscarrying mother ever tried to claim parental leave.

[Dabarastan]

A coalition of grieving women has gathered in @@CAPITAL@@ Square, demanding the country's parental leave legislation be expanded to also include mothers who have miscarried during their pregnancy.

Makes no sense. If they need leave, then they can and will get signed off for sick leave following the miscarriage, for either physical or emotional reasons. No miscarrying mother ever tried to claim parental leave.

We agree. The reason why we shoehorned maternity leave into the premise is because we worked backwards from the idea of writing an issue that could repeal the maternity leave policy. However, since, as you said, it really doesn't make sense, we have rewritten the premise and the options quite significantly, to now discuss the question of whether women should have access to additional sick leave if they miscarry.

[Jim the Baptist]

Bump

Also we noticed that it looks like this is now going to be happening in Australia soon as miscarriage leave

[Jim the Baptist]

Bump

[Jim the Baptist]

Bump

[Terrabod]

As far as I know, sick leave is sick leave. If the individual in question isn't well enough to go to work (whatever the reason, physical or psychological) then they can claim sick leave. Of course, most countries have a limit to when paid sick leave becomes unpaid sick leave (perhaps around six months), though the US (with no requirement for employers to pay sick leave) is the exception. In any case, I think basing your nation's sick pay policy on the developed world's most broken example would be a mistake.

In essence, CWA's point stands. New Zealand's miscarriage leave isn't an example of sick leave, it's bereavement leave. Other countries have similar systems in place - for example, British parents can take two weeks' bereavement leave after a stillbirth (i.e. after the 24-week mark). I get that there's a niche where you could argue that parents should get bereavement leave after a miscarriage (i.e. before the 24-week mark), but the ability for either or both parents to take paid sick leave due "emotional reasons", as CWA puts it, means there is a de facto miscarriage leave.

In accordance with that, I'm not really sure where this issue lies. What problem here cannot be solved by the parents going off on paid sick leave due to emotional stress? The miscarriage itself doesn't have to come into it; if citing substantial psychological or emotional stress is enough to get paid sick leave, it doesn't matter what the cause is.