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[DRAFT] Uncivil Serpents

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Pluvie
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[DRAFT] Uncivil Serpents

Postby Pluvie » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:43 pm

Afternoon Issue people!! I've been working on this draft for a couple weeks now and I think it's good enough that I'll put it up here for edits ^-^ Lmk what ya'll think!!

Title: Uncivil Serpents

Description: Recently, the @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Farmers’ Union put a bounty on the heads of a highly venomous snake, the Dange’rus Nudlius, which has been invading crop fields around @@NAME@@. However, the Dange’rus Nudlius is also the mascot of nearby @@FIRSTNAME@@ University, triggering angry protests from the University's students and staff.
Validity: All

Option: Mona Goosley, head of the @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Farmers’ Union, storms into your office. “@@LEADER@@, I demand you get these protesters off of our land!! Those snakes are deadly killers, they killed poor Joe Ratley just last week! And those protesters want me to spare the snakes ‘cause of some stupid university mascot? This is a dog eat dog world @@LEADER@@, and I’m havin’ snake for dinner.
Effect: The phrase "from farm to table" is often used to refer to snake meat.

Option: Professor Bo A. Adderson slithers into your office, adjusting his slender glasses as he coils into a chair. “Ehem, @@LEADER@@, you can’t listen to that killer. The Dange’rus Nudlius is a proud and noble creature, and while they’re not yet endangered, they could be if thisss keeps up! The government needs to provide protected land for these sssnakes, so they can flourish in peace without living in fear of these farmers. Of course we’ll have to grow the borders as the species recovers.”
Effect: Snake populations are growing suspiciously large

Option: Your security officer, @@RANDOMNAME@@, shoots you a sly grin. “I think you’ve been overlooking these snakes' talents. Sneaky, vicious, deadly. Sounds like a perfect soldier to me. Why don’t we… give them a new habitat? Say... our black ops unit?
Effect: @@NAME@@ justifies its war crimes by claiming the snakes did it.
Last edited by Pluvie on Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Pluvie
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Postby Pluvie » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:45 am

Minor edits made to improve syntax, clarification, and character voice. Nothing huge except for the effect line for the first option which I think was majorly improved. Didn't think it worth it to put up a whole second draft cuz of that tho :p
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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:01 am

Personally for me, I see nothing wrong with the premise and it does make for a good one! Reminds me of that one where there is a foreign invasive species in your land, and you have the option of culling them. This could work as a follow-up to that, whereby someone already used these invasive species as a mascot.

As for the effect line for Option 2, I am thinking of the classic "I am tired of these motherfking snakes..."
Maybe "the citizens get tired of the @@DEMONYM@@ snakes in the @@CAPITAL@@." Just a suggestion, of course!

Again or the effect line with Option 3. I am thinking something along the line of "Snakes doubled as recon drones and poisoned arrows" - a play on the idea that the snakes could be used as drones or cameras to give back intel (provided you can talk to the snakes), while also working as poisoned arrows and darts when going gets tough.

Bo A. Adderson is a clever name, I like it!

-----

My only concern regarding this issue so far is on what would happen for worlds or other countries where snakes are non-existent. Sure, NationStates issues assume that every country is on Earth, but it could be one of those snakeless countries.... I think. But this is just a minor thing from me.

I hope that someone more experienced with writing issues can give more constructive feedback to you, because while I do like the idea, I don't think I am good as a critic. ^^;

All the best! :hug:


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Postby Pluvie » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:52 am

Valentine Z wrote:Personally for me, I see nothing wrong with the premise and it does make for a good one! Reminds me of that one where there is a foreign invasive species in your land, and you have the option of culling them. This could work as a follow-up to that, whereby someone already used these invasive species as a mascot.

As for the effect line for Option 2, I am thinking of the classic "I am tired of these motherfking snakes..."
Maybe "the citizens get tired of the @@DEMONYM@@ snakes in the @@CAPITAL@@." Just a suggestion, of course!

Again or the effect line with Option 3. I am thinking something along the line of "Snakes doubled as recon drones and poisoned arrows" - a play on the idea that the snakes could be used as drones or cameras to give back intel (provided you can talk to the snakes), while also working as poisoned arrows and darts when going gets tough.

Bo A. Adderson is a clever name, I like it!

-----

My only concern regarding this issue so far is on what would happen for worlds or other countries where snakes are non-existent. Sure, NationStates issues assume that every country is on Earth, but it could be one of those snakeless countries.... I think. But this is just a minor thing from me.

I hope that someone more experienced with writing issues can give more constructive feedback to you, because while I do like the idea, I don't think I am good as a critic. ^^;

All the best! :hug:

So for the effect lines, especially the second one, I’m actually pretty happy with that one. It makes me chuckle and it’s a good joke that I think matches well with the snake professor jokes above :P

For the 3rd effect line, I think some changes could be in place, so I’ll take a look at that one, thanks :)

As for snakeless nations, I think that from what is said in the issue about it needing a new habitat and such, it is entirely possible within the issues wordings that the snakes came from another nation, so if a nation had no snakes in its canon, one could argue the snakes came from another nation(possibly one of the already existing NS ones) and thats how they managed to start invading your territory. I think also that this issue focuses a little bit more on the dangerousness of the snakes rather than the amount of them which makes that a little easier to work with as well.

Thank you for the feedback Val!! :hug:
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:36 pm

Take a look at #1298, which is also "these animals are being a nuisance, but there's ideological opposition to wiping them out". In that case the ideological opposition is due to them being an endangered species that we don't want to render extinct, rather than due to their being a university mascot, but that's a better reason anyway.

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Pluvie
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Postby Pluvie » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:02 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Take a look at #1298, which is also "these animals are being a nuisance, but there's ideological opposition to wiping them out". In that case the ideological opposition is due to them being an endangered species that we don't want to render extinct, rather than due to their being a university mascot, but that's a better reason anyway.

Hmm okay so the reason I think this issue is different(because you honestly raise a good point) is for a couple reasons. Firstly, I think that issue has a much more environmental approach to the subject. The issue is about it being an endangered species and all of the opposition is in an effort to save the animal from extinction. This is different imo because this resolution focuses less on the environmental aspect of killing the animal and more on the social aspects.

Secondly, and this might sound dumb, but the issue is the other way around. It’s “People are happy that an animal is coming back and a few people are unhappy” rather than “Everyone hates this animal and is ready to kill it save for the opposition of a few.”

That issue also focuses on the wolves effect on the farms and their products rather than the dangers of the snakes on humans. It focuses more on the economical aspects in that way, rather than the farmers in this case being worried about venomous snakes killing em.

But tbh, the biggest difference I see is just the focus on the environmental effects that I see in issue #1298. That feels like a very different focus and vibe to what I’m laying out in this one.

However! I do thank you for pointing that out, I had not previously seen that issue, must’ve missed it in my searches. And if there’s anything you would suggest to possibly change it to be less like a former issue, I’d love to hear it! But imo, even at the moment, this is a very different issue than #1298 and focuses on a very different thing. ^-^
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:38 pm

The thing is, even if they don't currently appear in the issue as written, it's unlikely that the environmentalists wouldn't have an opinion about this. If the snake is anywhere close to endangered, they'd definitely be in opposition. Even if the snake isn't currently endangered, a "kill on sight" policy (as opposed to just killing or chasing off the ones you find on your own property while sparing those in public parks) is likely to make it endangered, so they'd probably still be in opposition.

Besides this, if you want to make an issue about danger posed by venomous snakes, it's worth adressing countermeasures other than simply killing them all. A large number of snakebite victims can be (and in real life, are) saved simply by having readily-available medical treatment.

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Pluvie
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Postby Pluvie » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:44 pm

Trotterdam wrote:The thing is, even if they don't currently appear in the issue as written, it's unlikely that the environmentalists wouldn't have an opinion about this. If the snake is anywhere close to endangered, they'd definitely be in opposition. Even if the snake isn't currently endangered, a "kill on sight" policy (as opposed to just killing or chasing off the ones you find on your own property while sparing those in public parks) is likely to make it endangered, so they'd probably still be in opposition.

Besides this, if you want to make an issue about danger posed by venomous snakes, it's worth adressing countermeasures other than simply killing them all. A large number of snakebite victims can be (and in real life, are) saved simply by having readily-available medical treatment.

So I’m just gonna note that I actually don’t think either of these are things that would necessarily be true. In regards to environmental outcry, keep in mind that this is one group, the farmers association, thats killing the snakes. It’s not a nationwide policy, it’s not a policy at all, nor is it government sanctioned. It’s a bounty placed on the heads of snakes by one organization, and imo that wouldn’t cause enough of an extinction worry to warrant any outcry from environmental folks.

As for the second point, I don’t think that’s necessarily a viable option. Firstly, snakes wildly vary in the amount of deadly that comes from their venom, meaning this could be a type of snake too deadly for medical treatment to work, particularly if the military is interested in them. In addition, simply letting people be bit and then funding medical options to help them isn’t really a viable option. And that isn’t even considering that these are farmers, meaning the most remote and rural places in a nation often. Medical care would not necessarily even be possible in the time it took for the venom to kill its victim.

As for exploring other issue options, I have a few ideas that I’ve talked out with friends and there will probably be some major edits to the issue soon, I’ll let ya’ll all know when those are finished. But neither of these are options I think would be viable to add in all honesty ^-^
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:43 pm

Pluvie wrote:So I’m just gonna note that I actually don’t think either of these are things that would necessarily be true. In regards to environmental outcry, keep in mind that this is one group, the farmers association, thats killing the snakes.
The fact that they placed a bounty implies that they're making an effort to get as many people as possible to participate.

Pluvie wrote:As for the second point, I don’t think that’s necessarily a viable option. Firstly, snakes wildly vary in the amount of deadly that comes from their venom, meaning this could be a type of snake too deadly for medical treatment to work, particularly if the military is interested in them. In addition, simply letting people be bit and then funding medical options to help them isn’t really a viable option. And that isn’t even considering that these are farmers, meaning the most remote and rural places in a nation often. Medical care would not necessarily even be possible in the time it took for the venom to kill its victim.
Real life suggests otherwise. Australia is infamous for having the most venomous snakes in the world, but despite that, actual deaths are considerably rarer than in other parts of the world like India or Africa, which is credited directly to Australia being a first-world nation with well-funded public healthcare. (Admittedly, most of the dangerous snakes living out in the desert where few people visit is probably also a factor, but definitely not the only reason.)

If you look at Wikipedia's tables and divide the number of deaths by the number of bites, you'll see that only 0.16%-0.36% percent of victims in Australasia actually die, versus 1.30%-24.28% in Asia, 0.84%-35.44% in sub-Saharan Africa, and 4.90%-142.94% in Oceania (the high estimate is more than 100% because the high estimate for deaths is higher than the low estimate for bites). Only North America has lower fatality percentages, and it's not like their snakes are harmless.

Wikipedia has this to say explicitly:
Despite the fact that many Australian snakes have unusually potent venom, wide access to antivenom, which is available for all dangerous species, has made deaths exceedingly rare. It is believed that up to 1,500 definite or suspected snakebites occur in Australia each year, of which about 200 are serious enough to warrant antivenom therapy. Approximately 2 to 4 fatalities occur annually.

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Pluvie
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Postby Pluvie » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:02 pm

Okay so first of all, edits have been made. The wording of the intro has been slightly altered, and the 2nd option has been changed significantly ^-^

Secondly:
Trotterdam wrote:The fact that they placed a bounty implies that they're making an effort to get as many people as possible to participate.

I will continue to disagree with this point. Just because one organization has a bounty out doesn't mean an entire population will become endangered, and also that is addressed now in option 2 if it really needed to be addressed at all.

Trotterdam wrote:Real life suggests otherwise. Australia is infamous for having the most venomous snakes in the world, but despite that, actual deaths are considerably rarer than in other parts of the world like India or Africa, which is credited directly to Australia being a first-world nation with well-funded public healthcare. (Admittedly, most of the dangerous snakes living out in the desert where few people visit is probably also a factor, but definitely not the only reason.)

If you look at Wikipedia's tables and divide the number of deaths by the number of bites, you'll see that only 0.16%-0.36% percent of victims in Australasia actually die, versus 1.30%-24.28% in Asia, 0.84%-35.44% in sub-Saharan Africa, and 4.90%-142.94% in Oceania (the high estimate is more than 100% because the high estimate for deaths is higher than the low estimate for bites). Only North America has lower fatality percentages, and it's not like their snakes are harmless.

Wikipedia has this to say explicitly:
Despite the fact that many Australian snakes have unusually potent venom, wide access to antivenom, which is available for all dangerous species, has made deaths exceedingly rare. It is believed that up to 1,500 definite or suspected snakebites occur in Australia each year, of which about 200 are serious enough to warrant antivenom therapy. Approximately 2 to 4 fatalities occur annually.

Alright. So I'm gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Australia is not an image for the entire world(nor for the issue world which could have a snake deadly enough that no antidote was known). Australia may not have high mortality rates(although notably you said the fact that nobody visits the desert doesn't matter, which I rather believe it does) but that doesn't mean the entire world doesn't. Also, getting bit by venom of that level can still incapacitate someone or leave them with other undesirable effects besides death. In this case for instance, the farmers association leader would be mentioning the worst cases in his argument, not just the injuries of having deadly venom running through their system. And also, antidotes are not available in every nation, nor does every nation have the technology to even create an antidote, so the option would be a little ehhhh.

So tldr, I don't think this would be an option I would want to add, nor one I would need to.
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:21 pm

Fun fact: placing bounties on killing pests hasn't really worked that well, historically speaking.

Pluvie wrote:I will continue to disagree with this point. Just because one organization has a bounty out doesn't mean an entire population will become endangered, and also that is addressed now in option 2 if it really needed to be addressed at all.
Another problem here is whether it's ok that an organisation is deliberately encouraging culls of (presumably) native animals without any oversight...

Trotterdam wrote:Admittedly, most of the dangerous snakes living out in the desert where few people visit is probably also a factor, but definitely not the only reason.
This isn't necessarily true; Eastern Brown and Tiger snakes' habitat overlaps significantly with suburban areas (which is probably why they make up so many of the recorded snake fatalities). I've seen more snakes in local parks/reserves than in any of the deserts. In an Australia-style nation, any farm at risk of having its' crop fields invaded by this snake would have antivenom already on-site.

Some mystical hand-waving can solve the problem of "but antivenom" (they're killing livestock; they're too venomous; whatever) but I do think this issue is a bit easy. If the choice is between "animal is causing genuine problems" and "but it's our mascot", the former wins. Hell, look at how many things have the kangaroo as an emblem or mascot, and they get culled and eaten all the time.
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Electrum
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Postby Electrum » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:40 am

You've got some really good writing, but I think you need to reconsider whether the themes of this issue are similar/different to issues 627 and 1298. Also yeah, as Sherp says, bounties just do not work as an effective tool for reducing animal numbers.
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Pluvie
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Postby Pluvie » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:46 am

Nods Thanks everybody! ^-^ Ya’ll bring up some really good points. I think there are some flaws in the logic of the issue at all, not to mention similarity to past issues, so I’ll probably lay this draft to rest. I took another look at it and the other issues mentioned and all the advice given here and if it were a salvageable issue, I doubt I would be able to salvage it, so I’ll let this one die. Don’t worry though, you’ll be seeing me again on these forums someday :333

Also Electrum complimenting my writing is probably the sweetest compliment I’ve received in a while. Like what the heck, a whole issue editor complimenting my writing? ;-; Too kind
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:36 pm

Oh, this is boring. I thought that the issue would be people breading these snakes to claim bounty money. Why would governments care about sports mascots when eliminating pests?
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