[SUBMITTED] Nukes, Nukes, Everywhere!

[Awesomeland012345]

Note to self: make issue so it's not like this one: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88#377
Other note to self: make it so that it's not like this one either: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88&start=50#1062


Draft 6:

Validity: doesn't ban WMDs

Description: @@NAME@@ has developed a revolutionary submarine that is almost impossible to track and even detect, and can fire nuclear warheads! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Blackacre.

Option 1: Your minister of defense slams a fist on the table. "We can't risk having our secret technology captured! The only way to avoid it is to blow a hole in the sub, leaving it to sink and never be found again. Now hopefully we don't hit the nuke... but that probably won't happen."

Result: years and billions of @@CURRENCY@@ have been blown to the bottom of the ocean.

Option 2: "That's billions of @@CURRENCY@@ and years of effort wasted!" your minister of cost-cutting exclaims. "We must send a special team equipped with gas masks in to steer it to the nearest island, where we can then determine what went wrong! Never mind that the island has been cut off from civilization because of the wildlife that mysteriously dies whenever humans visit it. You want nukes or baby seals? Wait. That's not what I meant..."

Result: @@NAME@@ claims that @@ANIMAL@@s has been extinct for years.

Option 3: A tech monitoring the submarine suddenly bursts into the room. "We have to let it go! That sub just sailed into Blackacre's waters! If we go to retrieve it, they'll declare war! Just let them take it and tell them it was a gift from us to them. And tell them to ignore the dead bodies."

Result: TV watchers are horrified when Blackacre national news shows dead bodies in @@NAME@@'s 'gift'.

Option 4: An odd looking man suddenly appears out of nowhere and slams into your table, startling everyone. "My teleporter actually work - AUGH!" He jumps backward, stumbling over his hand which is now attached to his foot. "Ignore that, @@LEADER@@, I can fix your problems! My teleporter can just whisk this time bomb wherever you want, even into space! It might horribly malfunction but that probably won't happen."

Result: @@LEADER@@ is now surreptitiously being evacuated to a bomb shelter.

Validity: doesn't ban WMDs

Description: @@NAME@@ has developed a revolutionary submarine that can now travel at unprecedented speeds and even holds nuclear weapons! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Blackacre.

Option 1: Your minister of defense slams a fist on the table. "We can't risk having our secret technology captured! The only way to avoid it is to blow a hole in the sub, leaving it to sink and never be found again. Now hopefully we don't hit the nuke... but that probably won't happen."

Result: years and billions of @@CURRENCY@@ have been blown to the bottom of the ocean.

Option 2: "That's billions of @@CURRENCY@@ and years of effort wasted!" your minister of cost-cutting exclaims. "We must send a special team equipped with gas masks in to steer it to the nearest island, where we can then determine what went wrong! Never mind that the island has been cut off from civilization because of the wildlife that mysteriously dies whenever humans visit it. You want nukes or baby seals? Wait. That's not what I meant..."

Result: @@NAME@@ claims that @@ANIMAL@@s has been extinct for years.

Option 3: A tech monitoring the submarine suddenly bursts into the room. "We have to let it go! That sub just sailed into Blackacre's waters! If we go to retrieve it, they'll declare war! Just let them take it and tell them it was a gift from us to them. And tell them to ignore the dead bodies."

Result: TV watchers are horrified when Blackacre national news shows dead bodies in @@NAME@@'s 'gift'.

Option 4: An odd looking man suddenly appears out of nowhere and slams into your table, startling everyone. "My teleporter actually work - AUGH!" He jumps backward, stumbling over his hand which is now attached to his foot. "Ignore that, @@LEADER@@, I can fix your problems! My teleporter can just whisk this time bomb wherever you want, even into space! It might horribly malfunction but that probably won't happen."

Result: @@LEADER@@ is now surreptitiously being evacuated to a bomb shelter.

Validity: doesn't ban WMDs

Description: @@NAME@@ has developed a revolutionary submarine that can now travel at unprecedented speeds and even holds nuclear weapons! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Bigtopia.

Option 1: Your minister of defense slams a fist on the table. "We can't risk having our secret technology captured! The only way to avoid it is to blow a hole in the sub, leaving it to sink and never be found again. Now hopefully we don't hit the nuke... but that probably won't happen."

Result: years and billions of @@CURRENCY@@ have been blown to the bottom of the ocean.

Option 2: "That's billions of @@CURRENCY@@ and years of effort wasted!" your minister of cost-cutting exclaims. "We must send a special team equipped with gas masks in to steer it to the nearest island, where we can then determine what went wrong! Never mind that the island has been cut off from civilization because of the wildlife that mysteriously dies whenever humans visit it. You want nukes or baby seals? Wait. That's not what I meant..."

Result: @@NAME@@ claims that @@ANIMAL@@s has been extinct for years.

Option 3: A tech monitoring the submarine suddenly bursts into the room. "We have to let it go! That sub just sailed into Bigtopia's waters! If we go to retrieve it, they'll declare war! Just let them take it and tell them it was a gift from us to them. And tell them to ignore the dead bodies."

Result: TV watchers are horrified when Bigtopia national news shows dead bodies in @@NAME@@'s 'gift'.

Option 4: An odd looking man suddenly appears out of nowhere and slams into your table, startling everyone. "My teleporter actually work - AUGH!" He jumps backward, stumbling over his hand which is now attached to his foot. "Ignore that, @@LEADER@@, I can fix your problems! My teleporter can just whisk this time bomb wherever you want, even into space! It might horribly malfunction but that probably won't happen."

Result: @@LEADER@@ is now surreptitiously being evacuated to a bomb shelter.

Validity: doesn't ban WMDs

Description: @@NAME@@ has developed a revolutionary, nuclear-armed submarine! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Brancaland.

Option 1: Your minister of defense slams a fist on the table. "We can't risk having our secret technology captured! The only way to avoid it is to blow a hole in the sub, leaving it to sink and never be found again. Now hopefully we don't hit the nuke... but that probably won't happen."

Result: years and billions of @@CURRENCY@@ have been blown to the bottom of the ocean.

Option 2: "That's billions of @@CURRENCY@@ and years of effort wasted!" your minister of cost-cutting exclaims. "We must send a special team equipped with gas masks in to steer it to the nearest island, where we can then determine what went wrong! Never mind that the island has been cut off from civilization because of the wildlife that mysteriously dies whenever humans visit it. You want nukes or baby seals? Wait. That's not what I meant..."

Result: @@NAME@@ claims that @@ANIMAL@@s has been extinct for years.

Option 3: A tech monitoring the submarine suddenly bursts into the room. "We have to let it go! That sub just sailed into Brancaland's waters! If we go to retrieve it, they'll declare war! Just let them take it and tell them it was a gift from us to them. And tell them to ignore the dead bodies."

Result: TV watchers are horrified when Brancaland national news shows dead bodies in @@NAME@@'s 'gift'.

Option 4: An odd looking man suddenly appears out of nowhere and slams into your table, startling everyone. "My teleporter actually work - AUGH!" He jumps backward, stumbling over his hand which is now attached to his foot. "Ignore that, @@LEADER@@, I can fix your problems! My teleporter can just whisk this time bomb wherever you want, even into space! It might horribly malfunction but that probably won't happen."

Result: @@LEADER@@ is now surreptitiously being evacuated to a bomb shelter.

I modified it a lot. Now it seems like two different issues... but idk. Tell me if I should change it back.

Validity: doesn't ban WMDs

Description: @@NAME@@ has developed a new, nuclear-armed submarine! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Brancaland.

Option 1: Your minister of public relations excitedly presents an idea. "The press would eat us up if they knew what happened. We must present ourselves as patriotic heroes, destroying the corrupt Brancalandians! Never mind the suffering that we'll cause!"

Validity: Nation isn't a dictatorship.

Result: @@NAME@@ declares all of it's actions as noble and dictator-destroying.

Option 2: Your minister of defense slams a fist on the table. "We can't risk a war with them! The only way to prevent loss of human life - besides the already dead - is to get other submarine to nudge it to this uninhabited island and blow it up there! Never mind that's it's a national landmark and filled with endangered animals. I don't care about them. And I hope you don't either."

Result: hundreds of endangered plants and animals have been wiped out in seconds.

Option 3: An odd looking man suddenly appears out of nowhere and slams into your table, startling everyone. "My teleporter actually work - AUGH!" He jumps backward, stumbling over his hand which is now attached to his foot. "Ignore that, @@LEADER@@, I can fix your problems! My teleporter can just whisk this bomb wherever you want, even into space! It might horribly malfunction... but what's the chance of that?"

Result: @@LEADER@@ is now surreptitiously being evacuated to a bomb shelter.

Validity: doesn't ban WMDs

Description: While your minister of defense was sleeping on the job, he accidentally leaned on the "Fire All Nukes" lever. Minutes away from Brancaland's total destruction, you are now in an emergency meeting to determine your course of action.

Option 1: Your minister of public relations excitedly presents an idea. "The press would eat us up if they knew what happened. We must present ourselves as patriotic heroes, destroying the corrupt Brancalandians! Down with the corrupt socialist dictators!

Validity: is capitalist.

Result: @@NAME@@ declares all of it's actions in the name of capitalism.

Option 2: Your minister of public relations excitedly presents an idea. "The press would eat us up if they knew what happened. We must present ourselves as patriotic heroes, destroying the corrupt Brancalandians! Down with the corrupt capitalist pigs!

Validity: is socialist/communist (not capitalist)

Result: @@NAME@@ declares all of it's actions in the name of socialism/communism.

Option 3: Your disheveled minister of defense stumbles in the door, obviously still half asleep and oblivious to the fact that @@HE@@ is late. "@@LEADER@@! It wasn't me! Someone fudged the tape! It wasn't me... it was... uh... Daguo! They planted the nukes in our borders, then fired them remotely to make us look bad!" @@HE@@ whispers into your ear. "Look, bottom line is it wasn't me. Just go with it."

Result: @@LEADER@@ blames everything from traffic jams to plugged toilets on foreign spies.

Option 4: A five-star general strides into the room, covered with so many medals @@HE@@'s sweating with exertion. He booms, "I can fix this all! Your problem lies in that wombat." He points to your minister of defense. "For goodness sake, he was even sleeping! A good soldier never sleeps!" In an undertone, he says to you, "Plus, I have lots of @@CURRENCY@@. You want some?"

Result: high ranking army leaders are mugged on a daily basis.

Option 5: Your brother casually rests his dirty shoes on your new table. "Why go into all this trouble in making ourselves look good? Just say it was on purpose and take it over. It's not like we can stop the nuke, anyway."

Result: nearby nations grow more and more worried as @@NAME@@ continues to annex random neighbors.

Option 6: An odd looking man suddenly appears out of nowhere and slams into your table, startling everyone. "My teleporter actually work - AUGH!" He jumps backward, stumbling over his hand which is now attached to his foot. "Ignore that, @@LEADER@@, I can fix your problems! My teleporter can just whisk this bomb wherever you want, even into space! It might horribly malfunction... but what's the chances of that?"

Result: @@LEADER@@ is now surreptitiously being evacuated to a bomb shelter.

[Westinor]

Other problems aside, I don't see how this is fundamentally different from Issue #377. I understand this is a work in progress, but keep that in mind.

[Awesomeland012345]

Oops... back to drafting.

[Westinor]

Be especially careful when drafting about weapons of mass destruction, since the ramifications of such an issue are very large. Most people would know who launched what and probably wouldn't be worrying about how it looks as much as the actual physical effects. It might be easier to write about other drawbacks of having nukes, though many issues cover that too. Don't be discouraged though - your base writing looks fine.

[Trotterdam]

@@NAME@@ has developed a new, nuclear-armed submarine! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Brancaland.

So... noxious fumes killing everyone onboard seems like a serious problem, and I would be rather concerned about figuring out how my engineers could have messed up that badly and how to prevent it from happening again.

Which direction the sub is headed is not a serious problem. The worst that can happen is that it rams into something, which, given that it's a submarine, would probably be either another submarine (extremely unlikely, just because the sea isn't full of submarines), the continental slope (an underwater mass of solid rock that would laugh off a puny ship crashing into it), or maybe a whale (environmentalists will be upset, but the species isn't going to go extinct from one less whale).

The nuclear missiles onboard aren't going to go off just from hitting something, only if they're deliberately armed. There might be a slight concern of radioactive waste from the nukes' warheads spilling out, but it'll be far less severe than the fallout of an actual explosion, and also, it'll be underwater. Environmentalists might be slightly upset, but we've done far worse and that was to protect the environment.

In fact, your second-biggest concern might be the submarine being captured by another nation that might use it to reverse-engineer the design or acquire other state secrets. If you're worried about that, you'd probably send a ship to torpedo and sink it in the deep sea, where retrieving the wreck would be impractical.

[SherpDaWerp]

In fact, your second-biggest concern might be the submarine being captured by another nation that might use it to reverse-engineer the design or acquire other state secrets. If you're worried about that, you'd probably send a ship to torpedo and sink it in the deep sea, where retrieving the wreck would be impractical.

Now this sounds like an interesting issue - Blow up the ship to save state secrets but you do significant environmental damage, send teams after it (potentially violating Brancaland's waters) to save state secrets, leave it where it is... that could work quite well.

[Daarwyrth]

In fact, your second-biggest concern might be the submarine being captured by another nation that might use it to reverse-engineer the design or acquire other state secrets. If you're worried about that, you'd probably send a ship to torpedo and sink it in the deep sea, where retrieving the wreck would be impractical.

Now this sounds like an interesting issue - Blow up the ship to save state secrets but you do significant environmental damage, send teams after it (potentially violating Brancaland's waters) to save state secrets, leave it where it is... that could work quite well.

I agree! That would make an interesting issue, as I also feel the "oops we'll be blowing someone up" trope feels a little cliche at this point, I think. There are many issues to be made out of the downsides of having nuclear weapons and indeed, not all need to contain an explosion

As has been stated, the base writing is good. However, the topic needs to be approached from a completely different angle - preferably along the lines of what has been discussed in the quotes above - if this issue is to distinguish itself.

[Trotterdam]

Blow up the ship to save state secrets but you do significant environmental damage,

Shipwrecks are frequently good for the environment.

[Daarwyrth]

Blow up the ship to save state secrets but you do significant environmental damage,

Shipwrecks are frequently good for the environment.

As long as they don't carry nuclear payloads

[Trotterdam]

As long as they don't carry nuclear payloads

Again, a nuclear missile that hasn't gone off is pretty harmless. Besides, water makes for pretty good radiation shielding material.

A nuclear-powered submarine, rather than a nuclear-armed one, would be a bigger deal. The uranium it uses as fuel isn't particularly dangerous, but the nuclear waste products it produces when operating are nastier. Even then, the one nuclear submarine isn't going to be a big deal. The sea is really, really big. Several nuclear submarines have sunk in real life (accidents happen), and it's barely a blip on environmentalists' radar compared to, say, plastic waste or global warming.

[Daarwyrth]

As long as they don't carry nuclear payloads

Again, a nuclear missile that hasn't gone off is pretty harmless. Besides, water makes for pretty good radiation shielding material.

A nuclear-powered submarine, rather than a nuclear-armed one, would be a bigger deal. The uranium it uses as fuel isn't particularly dangerous, but the nuclear waste products it produces when operating are nastier. Even then, the one nuclear submarine isn't going to be a big deal. The sea is really, really big. Several nuclear submarines have sunk in real life (accidents happen), and it's barely a blip on environmentalists' radar compared to, say, plastic waste or global warming.

Oh, but I don't disagree with you, as you make a very good point

[SherpDaWerp]

As long as they don't carry nuclear payloads

Again, a nuclear missile that hasn't gone off is pretty harmless. Besides, water makes for pretty good radiation shielding material.

A nuclear-powered submarine, rather than a nuclear-armed one, would be a bigger deal. The uranium it uses as fuel isn't particularly dangerous, but the nuclear waste products it produces when operating are nastier. Even then, the one nuclear submarine isn't going to be a big deal. The sea is really, really big. Several nuclear submarines have sunk in real life (accidents happen), and it's barely a blip on environmentalists' radar compared to, say, plastic waste or global warming.

Nuclear-powered or nuclear armed, blowing it up with conventional weaponry is gonna spread radioactive material throughout the ocean.

Plus, blowing it up isn't gonna leave much of a shipwreck.

[Trotterdam]

Plus, blowing it up isn't gonna leave much of a shipwreck.

A single conventional torpedo isn't powerful enough to blast a ship into dust. It just blows a large hole in it and causes it to sink. That's, like, how naval warfare has worked for the past hundred years.

[Awesomeland012345]

Whoa, lots of new advice. Ima go through it today and edit the issue accordingly.

[Awesomeland012345]

Thanks for all the great advice. Lots of things I never thought of. The issue has now been edited.

[Australian rePublic]

Shouldn't leader tell Bracenland? You know, so they don't think it's an act of agression

[Awesomeland012345]

Shouldn't leader tell Bracenland? You know, so they don't think it's an act of agression

Well, it just entered Brancaland's waters in option 3, and it's a top secret sub, so I don't really think that would fit in here. Unless I'm missing something.

[Westinor]

@@NAME@@ has developed a revolutionary, nuclear-armed submarine! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Brancaland.

First off, what's so revolutionary about this submarine? Nuclear submarines aren't anything new, whereas something like a submarine with state-of-the-art reconnaissance and/or intelligence systems is much more realistic. Also, "nuclear-armed" doesn't really mean anything. If you stay with this, try either "revolutionary nuclear submarine" or "revolutionary submarine armed with nuclear missiles" but again, I don't see how either is particularly revolutionary.

There is promise in this issue though - the idea of whether you let the valuable and proprietary tech get into the hands of another nation (choose someone other than Brancaland, they're your allies and it makes a bit less sense) is a good one. On the other hand, you could stick with Brancaland, and make the issue about your nation having agreed to stop testing or using nuclear weapons, but still secretly testing it. That would fit with Brancaland's anti-nuclear stance being a problem. Unfortunately, there isn't an issue to chain this off of, (#815 doesn't have that option), but that could still work on its own with a bit of tweaking.

[Awesomeland012345]

@@NAME@@ has developed a revolutionary, nuclear-armed submarine! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Brancaland.

First off, what's so revolutionary about this submarine? Nuclear submarines aren't anything new, whereas something like a submarine with state-of-the-art reconnaissance and/or intelligence systems is much more realistic. Also, "nuclear-armed" doesn't really mean anything. If you stay with this, try either "revolutionary nuclear submarine" or "revolutionary submarine armed with nuclear missiles" but again, I don't see how either is particularly revolutionary.

Of all the random nations I pick, it has to be the one that @@NAME@@ has good relations with. I'll change the NPC nation to Bigtopia.
Also, I worded the issue so that it's open to interpretation. That was a bad idea, at least in this situation. I was just trying to make it sound like the sub was all-new and high tech, not that the nukes on it are revolutionary. Ima have to edit a bit.

[Westinor]

First off, what's so revolutionary about this submarine? Nuclear submarines aren't anything new, whereas something like a submarine with state-of-the-art reconnaissance and/or intelligence systems is much more realistic. Also, "nuclear-armed" doesn't really mean anything. If you stay with this, try either "revolutionary nuclear submarine" or "revolutionary submarine armed with nuclear missiles" but again, I don't see how either is particularly revolutionary.

Of all the random nations I pick, it has to be the one that @@NAME@@ has good relations with. I'll change the NPC nation to Bigtopia.
Also, I worded the issue so that it's open to interpretation. That was a bad idea, at least in this situation. I was just trying to make it sound like the sub was all-new and high tech, not that the nukes on it are revolutionary. Ima have to edit a bit.

Why does it have to be one @@NAME@@ is friendly with? I think it'd be a much more interesting issue if it were a hostile nation, since that tech could fall into their hands.

And once again, what's so revolutionary about a sub being able to carry nuclear weapons? I wasn't saying there was a problem with the nukes being revolutionary, I was referring to the sub itself.

[Awesomeland012345]

Why does it have to be one @@NAME@@ is friendly with? I think it'd be a much more interesting issue if it were a hostile nation, since that tech could fall into their hands.

nononono
I meant when I picked a random NPC nation out, it was the one friendly one, and not a hostile one. Out of all of the nations @@NAME@@ hates, I picked one that was friendly, and not hostile.

And once again, what's so revolutionary about a sub being able to carry nuclear weapons? I wasn't saying there was a problem with the nukes being revolutionary, I was referring to the sub itself.

that's what I meant. I hope that's what I wrote.

[Westinor]

Why does it have to be one @@NAME@@ is friendly with? I think it'd be a much more interesting issue if it were a hostile nation, since that tech could fall into their hands.

nononono
I meant when I picked a random NPC nation out, it was the one friendly one, and not a hostile one. Out of all of the nations @@NAME@@ hates, I picked one that was friendly, and not hostile.

And once again, what's so revolutionary about a sub being able to carry nuclear weapons? I wasn't saying there was a problem with the nukes being revolutionary, I was referring to the sub itself.

that's what I meant. I hope that's what I wrote.

Bigtopia isn't necessarily a nation your nation has these conflicts with - for this type of situation Blackacre or East Lebatuck would probably work better.

As to the second part, I don't think being able to carry nukes is particularly revolutionary to a submarine in any way, nor is being faster by itself. I'd suggest, again, a highly advanced information system that could be retrieved by the foreign nation, since that's a more high stakes, allows you to be a bit more ambiguous, and is more modern of a situation anyway.

[Awesomeland012345]

a highly advanced information system

What do you mean by that?

[Westinor]

a highly advanced information system

What do you mean by that?

Submarines nowadays are often better suited towards intelligence-gathering, and have systems that enhance these capabilities(whether that be through extremely accurate or powerful sensors that may allow them to scout out other ships from far away or things on land, or perhaps a technology that makes them even harder to track). More often than not this is the kind of proprietary technology carried by submarines, and is more high-stakes for most nations seeing as the race for 'weapons' that gather information in this day and age costs huge amounts of time and manpower. Not to mention the implications of having a spy submarine caught in foreign waters(which of course makes up this issue).

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Description: @@NAME@@ has developed a revolutionary submarine that is almost impossible to track and even detect, and can fire nuclear warheads! Unfortunately, while testing it, noxious fumes killed everyone onboard, leaving the sub to head straight toward Blackacre.

All submarines are "almost impossible" to track or detect, to a given value of "almost impossible".

Subs that can carry nuclear payloads are not exactly new developments. 1960, I think, was when the first SLBM was developed.

Additionally, I agree with all Trotterdam's points. The only real issue here is the noxious fumes and why that happened. The sub itself is highly unlikely to do anything other than harmlessly crash, and there's no real risk here of a nuclear meltdown of any sort.

Essentially, I'm not really sure this narrative holds together.