[DRAFT] Like Suicide?

[Rohendia]

Hello all. This is my first issue I've written in a while - hope I'm not too rusty.
EDIT 11/12: Changed the Guru's lines, and fixed a small typo.

Title: Like Suicide? (tentative title)

Validity: Nations that allow the free exercise of religion (no theocracies, no state atheism).

Description: Earlier this week, a group of hikers discovered something unusual in the @@ANIMAL@@ national forest: a dead body. The individual had died through extensive fasting, in accordance with a vow of the “Order of the Great Lotus” claiming to give the undertaker spiritual liberation. With various media outlets dubbing the action a “spiritual suicide”, concerns have risen from religious and spiritual sectors about the legality of such practices. Representatives have come to discuss the matter over lunch.

Option: ”This is absolutely barbaric!” yells fervent atheist @@RANDOMNAME@@ in-between wolfing down a turkey leg. “The fact that this lad was deluded enough to starve themself in order to “reach enlightenment” or ‘see god’ says that they should have been in an institution, not attending some whack-job’s sermons! These vows are no better than promoting religious warfare or human sacrifice. @@LEADER@@, please put a stop to these sadistic vows, and prohibit the teachings of their propagating religions! Hey, are you going to finish that?”
Effect: skipping meals is a criminal offense.

Option: ”This was not a suicide; this was their time to depart our world for the next.” articulates Guru @@RANDOMNAME@@ as @@HE@@ pecks at a bowl of rice. "Our faith holds that when an individual undertakes the path of spiritual enlightenment, there will come a time when living in the material world only holds them back from liberation. An individual can choose to undertake a vow of extreme asceticism, where they go into the wilderness and continually reduce their intake of food and water until they finally, and willingly, detach themselves from the world. No one forced the deceased to take such a vow, and our congregation teaches that these vows are not for everyone. But the deceased felt it was their time go, and we complied in accordance to our faith. Our tradition has initiated such rites for thousands of years, and the individual’s soul has been working towards liberation for much longer. By depriving them of such a vow, we would be doing them great harm.” @@HE@@ pushes away @@HIS@@ meal and hands you a set of prayer beads. “For all that is spiritually sound, please let us continue initiating such vows; perhaps in the next life you will truly understand why.”
Effect: ‘going off to die in the woods’ is a legal retirement plan.

Option: ”This is hilarious!” chortles WhoTube star Paul L. Starr while staring at his smartphone, neglecting the meal in front of him. “We should have more forests like these back in the United Federation. I think having national ‘suicide forests’ would bring in tons of thrill-seeking tourists and even more @@CURRENCY@@. Loonies get to off themselves, religious nuts like that dead guy get to achieve ‘samsara’ or whatever, and tourists have plenty of places to take ‘spooky’ selfies! Who knows, some people might even be able to communicate with the deceased foresters! What could possibly go wrong?”
Effect: tourists walk into national forests with cameras, microphones, and ouija boards.

The death in question is inspired by the Jain vow of Sallekhana, alongside similar rites.

Title: Like Suicide? (tentative title)

Validity: Nations that allow the free exercise of religion (no theocracies, no state atheism).

Description: Earlier this week, a group of hikers discovered something unusual in the @@ANIMAL@@ national forest: a dead body. The body had apparently died through extensive fasting, in accordance with a vow of the “Order of the Great Lotus” which claims to give the undertaker spiritual liberation. With various media outlets dubbing the action a “spiritual suicide”, concerns have risen from religious and spiritual sectors about the legality of such practices. Representatives have come to discuss the matter over lunch.

Option: ”This is absolutely barbaric!” yells fervent atheist @@RANDOMNAME@@ in-between wolfing down a turkey leg. “The fact that this lad was deluded enough to starve themselves in order to “reach enlightenment” or ‘see god’ says that they should have been in an institution, not attending some whack-job’s sermons! These vows are no better than promoting religious warfare or human sacrifice. @@LEADER@@, please put a stop to these sadistic vows, and prohibit the teachings of their propagating religions! Hey, are you going to finish that?”
Effect: skipping meals is a criminal offense.

Option: ”This is not a suicide, for the individual was already dead when they undertook the vow.” articulates Guru @@RANDOMNAME@@ as @@HE@@ pecks at a bowl of rice. “We held a funeral for them, initiating their separation from the social sphere in order to remove all material obligations and advance spiritually. Our tradition has initiated such rites for thousands of years, and the individual’s soul has been working towards liberation over the course of millions of lives. By depriving them of such a vow, we would be doing them great harm!” @@HE@@ pushes away @@HIS@@ meal and hands you a set of prayer beads. “For all that is spiritually sound, please let us continue initiating such vows; perhaps in the next life you will truly understand why.”
Effect: ‘going off to die in the woods’ is a legal retirement plan.

Option: ”This is hilarious!” chortles WhoTube star Paul L. Starr while staring at his smartphone, neglecting the meal in front of him. “We should have more forests like these back in the United Federation. I think having national ‘suicide forests’ would bring in tons of thrill-seeking tourists and even more @@CURRENCY@@. Loonies get to off themselves, religious nuts like that dead guy get to achieve ‘samsara’ or whatever, and tourists have plenty of places to take ‘spooky’ selfies! Who knows, some people might even be able to communicate with the deceased foresters! What could possibly go wrong?”
Effect: tourists walk into national forests with cameras, microphones, and ouija boards.

The death in question is inspired by the Jain vow of Sallekhana.
I feel the last option might be a bit too dicey to use in the final.
I'm also considering a fourth option involving a therapist.

[USS Monitor]

The writing is not bad, but the premise feels like it's treading in a crowded space with "Safe Sects" and the Jonestown-inspired issue that I don't remember the title of.

[The Free Joy State]

The writing is not bad, but the premise feels like it's treading in a crowded space with "Safe Sects" and the Jonestown-inspired issue that I don't remember the title of.

#836 "Don't Drink the Grape Punch".

Also, #1151, which asks about people fasting for their religion, although not to death, (which I note is part of this issue).

As Monitor said, the writing has promise. I hope you stick around and work on more drafts.

[Rohendia]

Fair enough.
What if I changed the death in question to that of self-immolation, as a form of political protest? It still deals with the issue of a form of "spiritual suicide", but changes the problem to that of unorthodox protest instead of fasting. It still does wander in the "weird cult making people commit suicide" territory, but the practice itself is not part of the religious tradition.

[Australian rePublic]

As a religious person, who has dealt with lent, I have three questions to ask you:

What exactly is extreme fasting? As an Orthodox Christian, I must ask, what's "extreme fasting"? I would consider of fasting of us Orthodox to be extreme, and we're not allowed to eat any product which comes from any animal with blood for periods of 40 days at a time. No fish, no milk, no meat, but other seafood is fine. I would consider that extreme. Our fasting isn't as extreme as that of Muslims, who aren't allowed to eat anything during the month of Ramadan, and not even allowed to drink water. Where we Orthodox differ from the Muslims, however, is that whilst Muslims can break their fast after sunset, we cannot break our fast at all till the period expires. Which is more extreme? The Muslims during the day, and Orthodox during the night.

And even the most religious clergy would advise against fasting for that long if you're medically unfit to. My family, for example, all have thalassemia minor, and once, my parents fasted for the 40 days before Easter and got quite ill from it (and, whilst I haven't actually had any tests), I believe that my thalassemia is stronger than that of my parents, so therefore, most clergy would pronably deam me medically unfit to fast for forty days at a time, as such, am probably exempt. (Which begs the question of how people used to do it before thalassemia was diagnosed, but anyway). My late grandmother, who didn't even have thalassemia, was almost completely exempt by her priest and her very religious doctor, just because she was wheelchair bound and problems with her arms, and, as said earlier- she didn't even have thalassemia. Muslims also exempt medically unfit people from fasting at Ramadan, they even exempt women who are on their periods (I'm pretty sure us Orthodox don't even do that). Then, of coarse, there are religious people who don't fast, but that's not what this issue is about.

Long story short
Basically, 3 questions:
1. What is "extreme fasting"?
2. Does the deceased's religion allow exemptions for the medically unfit?
3. Was the deceased medically unfit to fast? (some medically unfit people will ignore their priest's/doctor's/whatever exemptions and will continue to fast, even when they're not obligated to. My afforementioned late grandmother was in this catagory, up until a few months before her death, and to be honest, If I had even a quarter of the determination to God that she had...)

There's a difference between someone with thalassemia ignoring their priest and refusing to eat meat for an entire 40 days non-stop, vs. Someone with thalassemia being non-obligated to adopt a breatharian lifestyle during daylight hours, but choosing to do so anyway, vs. someone who is medically capable to fast, and must obstain from cheese for 3 hour intervals.

[Bears Armed]

Muslims, who aren't allowed to eat anything during the month of Ramadan, and not even allowed to drink water.

That's only between sunrise & sunset" for those 40 days... and, even then, some branches of Islam allow exceptions where following that limitation would be lethal: e.g. allowing water where there's a very serious risk of dehydration; allowing people who are already weakened due to illness or injury to eat & drink as their medical staff say is necessary; or even going by "sunrise & sunset, as they are at Mecca' for Muslims in countries whose greater distance from the equator makes the length of daylight significantly longer during that year's Ramadan.

[Australian rePublic]

Muslims, who aren't allowed to eat anything during the month of Ramadan, and not even allowed to drink water.

That's only between sunrise & sunset" for those 40 days... and, even then, some branches of Islam allow exceptions where following that limitation would be lethal: e.g. allowing water where there's a very serious risk of dehydration; allowing people who are already weakened due to illness or injury to eat & drink as their medical staff say is necessary; or even going by "sunrise & sunset, as they are at Mecca' for Muslims in countries whose greater distance from the equator makes the length of daylight significantly longer during that year's Ramadan.

That's exactly what I said! If you're medically incapable of fasting, you're exempt (I didn't know about the dehydration part though, fair enough). As for the midnight sun part, I was also aware of that, but found it irrelevant for this issue

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

That's only between sunrise & sunset" for those 40 days... and, even then, some branches of Islam allow exceptions where following that limitation would be lethal: e.g. allowing water where there's a very serious risk of dehydration; allowing people who are already weakened due to illness or injury to eat & drink as their medical staff say is necessary; or even going by "sunrise & sunset, as they are at Mecca' for Muslims in countries whose greater distance from the equator makes the length of daylight significantly longer during that year's Ramadan.

That's exactly what I said! If you're medically incapable of fasting, you're exempt (I didn't know about the dehydration part though, fair enough). As for the midnight sun part, I was also aware of that, but found it irrelevant for this issue

I believe that the issue is meant to allude to fasting until death (and self-mummification), as has been practised by some extremely devoted ascetics. Examples: sokushinbutsu in Buddhism, prayopavesa in Hinduism, sallekhana in Jainism, and rarely after/part of consolamentum in Catharism; it may be notable that those who practised this seemed to always believe in reincarnation, asceticism, and ahimsa.

[SherpDaWerp]

Backing away from fasting (that's already been covered),

Fair enough.
What if I changed the death in question to that of self-immolation, as a form of political protest? It still deals with the issue of a form of "spiritual suicide", but changes the problem to that of unorthodox protest instead of fasting. It still does wander in the "weird cult making people commit suicide" territory, but the practice itself is not part of the religious tradition.

This sounds like a good idea to me. If you emphasized that it's not necessarily a "forced" thing and more an extreme act of protest then I can see where there wouldn't be too much overlap with the other issues that have been mentioned.

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

Backing away from fasting (that's already been covered),

Fair enough.
What if I changed the death in question to that of self-immolation, as a form of political protest? It still deals with the issue of a form of "spiritual suicide", but changes the problem to that of unorthodox protest instead of fasting. It still does wander in the "weird cult making people commit suicide" territory, but the practice itself is not part of the religious tradition.

This sounds like a good idea to me. If you emphasized that it's not necessarily a "forced" thing and more an extreme act of protest then I can see where there wouldn't be too much overlap with the other issues that have been mentioned.

There is already an issue about self-immolation (1197 Aflame with Indignity).

[SherpDaWerp]

There is already an issue about self-immolation (1197 Aflame with Indignity).

Huh. I didn't notice that one. Sounds like religious self-harm/suicide has been pretty well covered then. Maybe fasting specifically until death...?

[Rohendia]

As a religious person, who has dealt with lent, I have three questions to ask you:
[...]
1. What is "extreme fasting"?
2. Does the deceased's religion allow exemptions for the medically unfit?
3. Was the deceased medically unfit to fast?

1. Extreme fasting, in this instance, is forcibly depriving oneself of food and water with the goal of eventually dying.
2. In this religious order, you only take the fast if you feel ready to. It is not required of every practitioner of the faith; if you're not ready for it in this life, then you can spend this life undertaking the rites and rituals necessary to be born in a life where you are ready.
I should rewrite the guru's lines to better emphasize that it's a personal decision. There wasn't a council of 30something odd clerics pointing at the deceased going "IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO DIE IN THE WOODS!". The deceased felt it was his time to go, and the clergy helped him pass on in a proper Lotusian way. I only vaguely hinted at the idea "it's not for everyone" with the guru's last line.
3. I don't think the issue is wether or not the individual was physically fit to undertake the fast; the point is you're supposed to die and leave the material cycle of reincarnation behind.

Huh. I didn't notice that one. Sounds like religious self-harm/suicide has been pretty well covered then. Maybe fasting specifically until death...?

I think that's something I should've emphasised more in the issue. It's not a ban on fasting, it's a ban on fasting to the death.

The main problem I had in mind wasn't "some crazy cult is killing civilians with the promise of nirvana"; the problem is the right to die in accordance with religious rituals. The reason I titled the issue as such is because it greatly resembles a suicide from an outsider's perspective, when it's simply the last stage to spiritual liberation from the inside perspective.
That and it's also the title of a Soundgarden song.

I believe that the issue is meant to allude to fasting until death (and self-mummification), as has been practised by some extremely devoted ascetics. Examples: sokushinbutsu in Buddhism, prayopavesa in Hinduism, sallekhana in Jainism, and rarely after/part of consolamentum in Catharism; it may be notable that those who practised this seemed to always believe in reincarnation, asceticism, and ahimsa.

That's exactly what the issue was going for. The "Order of the Lotus" follows a Jain/Renunciant Hindu model of spiritual liberation.

There is already an issue about self-immolation (1197 Aflame with Indignity).

Huh, wasn't aware of that. Good to know it exists.

In my next draft I'm going to emphasize the issue as being "a person's right to die in accordance to religious tradition" instead of it coming off as a suicide cult or someone taking lent a little too seriously.

[Bears Armed]

That's exactly what I said! If you're medically incapable of fasting, you're exempt (I didn't know about the dehydration part though, fair enough). As for the midnight sun part, I was also aware of that, but found it irrelevant for this issue

I believe that the issue is meant to allude to fasting until death (and self-mummification), as has been practised by some extremely devoted ascetics. Examples: sokushinbutsu in Buddhism, prayopavesa in Hinduism, sallekhana in Jainism, and rarely after/part of consolamentum in Catharism; it may be notable that those who practised this seemed to always believe in reincarnation, asceticism, and ahimsa.

It also seems to have been practiced, to a limited extent, among the Inca.

[Australian rePublic]

As a religious person, who has dealt with lent, I have three questions to ask you:
[...]
1. What is "extreme fasting"?
2. Does the deceased's religion allow exemptions for the medically unfit?
3. Was the deceased medically unfit to fast?

1. Extreme fasting, in this instance, is forcibly depriving oneself of food and water with the goal of eventually dying.
2. In this religious order, you only take the fast if you feel ready to. It is not required of every practitioner of the faith; if you're not ready for it in this life, then you can spend this life undertaking the rites and rituals necessary to be born in a life where you are ready.
I should rewrite the guru's lines to better emphasize that it's a personal decision. There wasn't a council of 30something odd clerics pointing at the deceased going "IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO DIE IN THE WOODS!". The deceased felt it was his time to go, and the clergy helped him pass on in a proper Lotusian way. I only vaguely hinted at the idea "it's not for everyone" with the guru's last line.
3. I don't think the issue is wether or not the individual was physically fit to undertake the fast; the point is you're supposed to die and leave the material cycle of reincarnation behind

Don't explain to me, explain in the issue

[Rohendia]

1. Extreme fasting, in this instance, is forcibly depriving oneself of food and water with the goal of eventually dying.
2. In this religious order, you only take the fast if you feel ready to. It is not required of every practitioner of the faith; if you're not ready for it in this life, then you can spend this life undertaking the rites and rituals necessary to be born in a life where you are ready.
I should rewrite the guru's lines to better emphasize that it's a personal decision. There wasn't a council of 30something odd clerics pointing at the deceased going "IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO DIE IN THE WOODS!". The deceased felt it was his time to go, and the clergy helped him pass on in a proper Lotusian way. I only vaguely hinted at the idea "it's not for everyone" with the guru's last line.
3. I don't think the issue is wether or not the individual was physically fit to undertake the fast; the point is you're supposed to die and leave the material cycle of reincarnation behind

Don't explain to me, explain in the issue

Check the current draft; I think it better answers those questions.

[Rohendia]

Bump

[Imbalistan]

As a religious person, who has dealt with lent, I have three questions to ask you:

What exactly is extreme fasting? As an Orthodox Christian, I must ask, what's "extreme fasting"? I would consider of fasting of us Orthodox to be extreme, and we're not allowed to eat any product which comes from any animal with blood for periods of 40 days at a time. No fish, no milk, no meat, but other seafood is fine. I would consider that extreme. Our fasting isn't as extreme as that of Muslims, who aren't allowed to eat anything during the month of Ramadan, and not even allowed to drink water. Where we Orthodox differ from the Muslims, however, is that whilst Muslims can break their fast after sunset, we cannot break our fast at all till the period expires. Which is more extreme? The Muslims during the day, and Orthodox during the night.

And even the most religious clergy would advise against fasting for that long if you're medically unfit to. My family, for example, all have thalassemia minor, and once, my parents fasted for the 40 days before Easter and got quite ill from it (and, whilst I haven't actually had any tests), I believe that my thalassemia is stronger than that of my parents, so therefore, most clergy would pronably deam me medically unfit to fast for forty days at a time, as such, am probably exempt. (Which begs the question of how people used to do it before thalassemia was diagnosed, but anyway). My late grandmother, who didn't even have thalassemia, was almost completely exempt by her priest and her very religious doctor, just because she was wheelchair bound and problems with her arms, and, as said earlier- she didn't even have thalassemia. Muslims also exempt medically unfit people from fasting at Ramadan, they even exempt women who are on their periods (I'm pretty sure us Orthodox don't even do that). Then, of coarse, there are religious people who don't fast, but that's not what this issue is about.

Long story short
Basically, 3 questions:
1. What is "extreme fasting"?
2. Does the deceased's religion allow exemptions for the medically unfit?
3. Was the deceased medically unfit to fast? (some medically unfit people will ignore their priest's/doctor's/whatever exemptions and will continue to fast, even when they're not obligated to. My afforementioned late grandmother was in this catagory, up until a few months before her death, and to be honest, If I had even a quarter of the determination to God that she had...)

There's a difference between someone with thalassemia ignoring their priest and refusing to eat meat for an entire 40 days non-stop, vs. Someone with thalassemia being non-obligated to adopt a breatharian lifestyle during daylight hours, but choosing to do so anyway, vs. someone who is medically capable to fast, and must obstain from cheese for 3 hour intervals.

Correction from a muslim: what most muslims do here in the US is that we get up at 3:00 AM before sunrise, go out to IHOP, eat, go back home, sleep the rest of the day, and by moonlight, we eat again. Elderly and children don't need to fast, pregnant and ill people don't also.