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[DRAFT] Habeus Corpses

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Orange-Bourgogne
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Founded: Jun 13, 2014
Democratic Socialists

[DRAFT] Habeus Corpses

Postby Orange-Bourgogne » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:07 am

My first draft issue. Critique is welcome. :D

Habeus Corpses

The Prosecution Office accuses @@RANDOMNAME@@ of treason. The only problem is that the suspect died two years ago.

Requirements: Must have a judicial system.

@@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@, the defence barrister, claims that her client can by no means be tried. “How can you accuse a person that has ceased to exist? Should we send his body to trial? Have you any idea what smell that would bring with it?! In the next case, the prosecution will probably try convicting @@ANIMALPLURAL@@ too. Clearly, the case should be dismissed!”

Effect: Suspects commit suicide in order to avoid trial.

“OBJECTION!”, shouts @@RANDOMNAME@@ wearing a black gown and a wig, @@NAME@@’s chief prosecutor. We have undoubtable proof that the suspect is guilty. It just took us thirteen years to find that out! Surely, criminals must be punished for their crimes; if not, @@NAME@@ will become a paradise for the parasites of society. They must serve their sentences, even if their bodies suffer from a permanent health condition like death.”

Effect: Skeletons serve prison sentences 500 years after they committed their crimes.

“Holy Violet!” A man responds. “Why do we punish criminals at all? Is it not true that only the Mighty Violet may pass down judgement on us mortals? Clearly, if the High Violet is of the opinion that a crime was made, She will intervene and strike the person with lightning.”

Effect: Criminals have a 0.00000002% chance of being punished for their behaviour.

Author: Orange-Bourgogne
Last edited by Orange-Bourgogne on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:11 am

OOC; If the law allows confiscation of convicted traitors' estates, as has been the case in some RL nations, then that potentially gives the authorities an extra reason for post-mortem prosecution...
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Orange-Bourgogne
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Postby Orange-Bourgogne » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:19 am

Bears Armed wrote:OOC; If the law allows confiscation of convicted traitors' estates, as has been the case in some RL nations, then that potentially gives the authorities an extra reason for post-mortem prosecution...


An interesting aspect, I admit. Yet on the other hand there are also legal systems who consider the confiscation of land not to be part of criminal law. They rather see it part of civil law. Another question that could be brought up if we got down this road is whether or not the property would then belong to the traitor or his successors. Yet let us stick to the personal (criminal) responsibility. I am willing to change the suspected crime to something like murder if that would be deemed better...
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:59 am

Nice topic.

Have you any idea what smell that would bring with it?!


:lol:

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Orange-Bourgogne
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Postby Orange-Bourgogne » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:45 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Nice topic.

Have you any idea what smell that would bring with it?!


:lol:


I'm glad you liked the joke. I tried not to make it too serious. :)
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Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners
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Postby Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:59 am

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Order
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**BUM BUM**

Seriously, though, perhaps the Violetists might be the one's proposing posthumous trial. Something along the lines of the Cadaver Synod, if Violetism is compatible in some way. I'd think it ordinarily difficult to see a nominally secular government going to the trouble and expense, outside of extremely exceptional circumstances (e.g. establishing the historical fact and/or culpability of some war crime, or similar).

Also, title should be "Habeus Corpses."
Last edited by Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners on Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:03 pm

When I read this I thought that this was about places where it's illegal to die. What are you gonna do, kill him? (Try to include that line somewhere). Also, if he hasn't had his trial yet, how do we know that he's guilty? Presumption of innocence
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Orange-Bourgogne
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Postby Orange-Bourgogne » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:43 am

Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners wrote:
Law &
Order
Weekend At Bernies


**BUM BUM**

Seriously, though, perhaps the Violetists might be the one's proposing posthumous trial. Something along the lines of the Cadaver Synod, if Violetism is compatible in some way. I'd think it ordinarily difficult to see a nominally secular government going to the trouble and expense, outside of extremely exceptional circumstances (e.g. establishing the historical fact and/or culpability of some war crime, or similar).


This would also have been an option of course, but I choose the divine interference to take place during the lives so that it would scare potential criminals to commit their actions rather than having them punished in the afterlife.

Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners wrote:Also, title should be "Habeus Corpses."


I like it. This suggestion will be implemented.

Australian rePublic wrote:When I read this I thought that this was about places where it's illegal to die. What are you gonna do, kill him? (Try to include that line somewhere).


I left that one out to make the issue also applicable to nations that do not have capital punishment.

Australian rePublic wrote:Also, if he hasn't had his trial yet, how do we know that he's guilty? Presumption of innocence


The question here is not whether the suspect is in fact guilty. The question is whether the prosecution may start a trial in which they would then have to prove that he is in fact guilty. Perhaps I will make another issue to deal with the question of guilt in the future.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:44 am

Orange-Bourgogne wrote:
Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners wrote:
Law &
Order
Weekend At Bernies


**BUM BUM**

Seriously, though, perhaps the Violetists might be the one's proposing posthumous trial. Something along the lines of the Cadaver Synod, if Violetism is compatible in some way. I'd think it ordinarily difficult to see a nominally secular government going to the trouble and expense, outside of extremely exceptional circumstances (e.g. establishing the historical fact and/or culpability of some war crime, or similar).


This would also have been an option of course, but I choose the divine interference to take place during the lives so that it would scare potential criminals to commit their actions rather than having them punished in the afterlife.

Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners wrote:Also, title should be "Habeus Corpses."


I like it. This suggestion will be implemented.

Australian rePublic wrote:When I read this I thought that this was about places where it's illegal to die. What are you gonna do, kill him? (Try to include that line somewhere).


I left that one out to make the issue also applicable to nations that do not have capital punishment.

Australian rePublic wrote:Also, if he hasn't had his trial yet, how do we know that he's guilty? Presumption of innocence


The question here is not whether the suspect is in fact guilty. The question is whether the prosecution may start a trial in which they would then have to prove that he is in fact guilty. Perhaps I will make another issue to deal with the question of guilt in the future.

Isn't making death illegal the opposite of the death penalty?
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Verdant Haven
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Postby Verdant Haven » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:33 am

The main concern I'm seeing is along the lines of what Bears Armed and ACBC have already brought up – the justification for having such a trial at all. Unless a nation has Corruption of Blood, why is a full legal case being pursued? It's a waste of money, waste of time, and has no place in the criminal justice system. Even a Truth and Reconciliation Commission doesn't deal in criminal trials. This could make an excellent issue for a public inquiry or an inquest discussion, but criminal prosecution doesn't make sense.

If this were framed as argument for or against pursuing evidence of past wrongdoing in one of those non-trial contexts, I think it would be much stronger, and would gain the ring of truth that it needs.
Last edited by Verdant Haven on Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners
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Postby Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:26 pm

Verdant Haven wrote:If this were framed as argument for or against pursuing evidence of past wrongdoing in one of those non-trial contexts, I think it would be much stronger, and would gain the ring of truth that it needs.


Plus, you could still have the crazy third option, where some Violetist insists that you've got to dig up the actual corpse and present it at trial. Or, maybe an overly enthusiastic paralegal interpreting "habeus corpus" a bit too literally. Or a Constitutional literalist, for that matter.
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Verdant Haven
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Postby Verdant Haven » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:44 pm

Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners wrote:
Verdant Haven wrote:If this were framed as argument for or against pursuing evidence of past wrongdoing in one of those non-trial contexts, I think it would be much stronger, and would gain the ring of truth that it needs.


Plus, you could still have the crazy third option, where some Violetist insists that you've got to dig up the actual corpse and present it at trial. Or, maybe an overly enthusiastic paralegal interpreting "habeus corpus" a bit too literally. Or a Constitutional literalist, for that matter.


Agreed - I think a legally-ignorant wacko trying to literally interpret the phrase habeas corpus is a perfect justification for the third option. Can't get much more direct than that!
Last edited by Verdant Haven on Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Maltropia
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Postby Maltropia » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:47 pm

Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners wrote:Also, title should be "Habeus Corpses."

Habeas*
Last edited by Maltropia on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Israeli Commonwealth » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:48 pm

Orange-Bourgogne wrote:My first draft issue. Critique is welcome. :D

Habeus Corpses

The Prosecution Office accuses @@RANDOMNAME@@ of treason. The only problem is that the suspect died two years ago.

Requirements: Must have a judicial system.

@@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@, the defence barrister, claims that her client can by no means be tried. “How can you accuse a person that has ceased to exist? Should we send his body to trial? Have you any idea what smell that would bring with it?! In the next case, the prosecution will probably try convicting @@ANIMALPLURAL@@ too. Clearly, the case should be dismissed!”

Effect: Suspects commit suicide in order to avoid trial.

“OBJECTION!”, shouts @@RANDOMNAME@@ wearing a black gown and a wig, @@NAME@@’s chief prosecutor. We have undoubtable proof that the suspect is guilty. It just took us thirteen years to find that out! Surely, criminals must be punished for their crimes; if not, @@NAME@@ will become a paradise for the parasites of society. They must serve their sentences, even if their bodies suffer from a permanent health condition like death.”

Effect: Skeletons serve prison sentences 500 years after they committed their crimes.

“Holy Violet!” A man responds. “Why do we punish criminals at all? Is it not true that only the Mighty Violet may pass down judgement on us mortals? Clearly, if the High Violet is of the opinion that a crime was made, She will intervene and strike the person with lightning.”

Effect: Criminals have a 0.00000002% chance of being punished for their behaviour.

Author: Orange-Bourgogne


OOC: Maybe add that families could be tried for a suspects crimes
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Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:02 pm

Maltropia wrote:
Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners wrote:Also, title should be "Habeus Corpses."

Habeas*


It's U-E-I-O-A, isn't it? :blink:

(oops)
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:55 am

You should include the line "What are you gonna do? Kill him?" somewhere
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
From Sydney, NSW. From Greek ancestry. Orthodox Christian.
Why stylised as "rePublic"
16 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution
Issue Ideas You Can Steal


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