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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Corporate Bordello

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:20 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:To me, the most interesting thing about sagging is that some US states felt the need to specifically legislate against a style of dress that is more common amongst certain ethnic groups.
Why are the ethnic minority wearing this? Is it actually traditional in their culture, or did they deliberately make up a weird fashion just for the sake of being different?


Some claim it was a prison chic thing, coming from the fact that you're not allowed belts in prison, and the right-sized clothing isn't always available.

However, like most fashions, it's hard to pin down exact origins. Regardless, it definitely has cultural associations, and those associated cultures have associations with some ethnic communities.

It's also kind of arbitrary to distinguish between a fashion that is traditional because it was in style five hundred or a thousand years ago, and a fashion that is traditional because it was in style 30 years ago.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Socio Polor
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Founded: Nov 28, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Socio Polor » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:20 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:There's potentially an interesting issue about clothing styles here, but it's not being delivered. Right now, you're issue is:

"Some crazy people wear saggy pants.
1 - Let us dress how we like.
2 - That's stupid, stop them!
3 - Halfway compromise
The end."

Can you see how thin that premise is?

To me, the most interesting thing about sagging is that some US states felt the need to specifically legislate against a style of dress that is more common amongst certain ethnic groups.

The fact that the style of dress is sagging isn't that interesting. More interesting is the idea that clothing styles could be regulated -- for ostensibly reasonable justifications -- in a way that in practical terms disproportionately targets an ethnic minority's fashion choices.

I think it ought to be more like:

1) This clothing style is indecent, and stupid, basically. Ban it.
2) It's stupid, but you can't interfere with the freedom to dress in certain ways. Instead, consider subsidising classic fashion and tailors who make smart clothes, and let fashion's change as a result.
3) Attacking the fashion would disproportionately target ethnic minority youths, whose fashion trend it is, instead maybe educate people about diversity, and maybe make a speech or two while adopting the fashion yourself. (effect: politicians are often caught with their pants down)

So to make sure I'm understanding you correctly CWA, basically you're telling me to add more of a narrative here to thicken the premise?
"Man is nature. What we create is an extension of nature. God is nothing more than a symptom of an irrational fear of the unknown."
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Socio Polor
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Postby Socio Polor » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:27 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Why are the ethnic minority wearing this? Is it actually traditional in their culture, or did they deliberately make up a weird fashion just for the sake of being different?


Some claim it was a prison chic thing, coming from the fact that you're not allowed belts in prison, and the right-sized clothing isn't always available.

However, like most fashions, it's hard to pin down exact origins. Regardless, it definitely has cultural associations, and those associated cultures have associations with some ethnic communities.

It's also kind of arbitrary to distinguish between a fashion that is traditional because it was in style five hundred or a thousand years ago, and a fashion that is traditional because it was in style 30 years ago.

Yes, the most common theory surrounding the origins of sagging is it begin in prison and when the inmates were released they were so in the habit of doing it when they were in prison they started doing it in public, they even grown to like how it looked as it made them appear "gangster", "cool" or "edgy" in sense. Afterwards, other people who were not in prison started seeing them wearing their pants below their waistline, liked how it looked as well and started doing it themselves; thus how the trend spreaded. As an ethnic minority myself (I'm African American) I can confirm that sagging is in no way shape or form "traditional."
Last edited by Socio Polor on Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Man is nature. What we create is an extension of nature. God is nothing more than a symptom of an irrational fear of the unknown."
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Corporate Bordello

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:28 am

So to make sure I'm understanding you correctly CWA, basically you're telling me to add more of a narrative here to thicken the premise?


No, the narrative is fine. The problem here is the lack of depth in the arguments, and the lack of nuance around the issue.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Socio Polor
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Postby Socio Polor » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:31 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
So to make sure I'm understanding you correctly CWA, basically you're telling me to add more of a narrative here to thicken the premise?


No, the narrative is fine. The problem here is the lack of depth in the arguments, and the lack of nuance around the issue.

Oh I see, ok thanks
"Man is nature. What we create is an extension of nature. God is nothing more than a symptom of an irrational fear of the unknown."
-Alvecia

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:18 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:It's also kind of arbitrary to distinguish between a fashion that is traditional because it was in style five hundred or a thousand years ago, and a fashion that is traditional because it was in style 30 years ago.
I think it's an important difference when the ethnic minority supposedly became part of our great nation and at least officially given the same rights as everyone else more than 30 years ago but less than 500 years ago.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:05 am

Sure, what I mean to say is that if something is part of a group's cultural identity, then it doesn't acquire more worth for being centuries old rather than decades old.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:34 am

Australian rePublic wrote:I'm sorry, I don't see how this would work as an issue. If you want an issue about fashion trends, I suggest looking into Carribean countries who ban camouflage clothing. That would make an interesting issue

Some Carribean countries IRL have banned civilains from wearing camouflaged clothing. I don't know why they think vicivilians in camouflage would be confused for soldiers (I'm guess that's the reason for the ban), especially considering that civilains would be wearing t-shirts and shorts due to the climate, but nonetheless, if it exists IRL it can also exist as an issue.

Or, another angle you could take is people who cover their heads for religious purposes (burka, hyjab, turban, Catholic/Orthodox Christian nun hut, etc.) This is something leader would actually care about, as it difficult to identitfy people who cover their faces. "His/her pants are too low" is not something I'd see leader caring about
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
As a centrist, I have been called both an extreme leftist and an extreme right-winger.
From Sydney, NSW. From Greek ancestry. Orthodox Christian.
Why stylised as "rePublic"
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:03 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Some Carribean countries IRL have banned civilains from wearing camouflaged clothing. I don't know why they think vicivilians in camouflage would be confused for soldiers (I'm guess that's the reason for the ban), especially considering that civilains would be wearing t-shirts and shorts due to the climate, but nonetheless, if it exists IRL it can also exist as an issue.
I suspect it may have more to do with how camouflage fashion tends to be worn to project a "tough guy" image and is associated with some militant political groups.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:31 pm

Trotterdam wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Some Carribean countries IRL have banned civilains from wearing camouflaged clothing. I don't know why they think vicivilians in camouflage would be confused for soldiers (I'm guess that's the reason for the ban), especially considering that civilains would be wearing t-shirts and shorts due to the climate, but nonetheless, if it exists IRL it can also exist as an issue.
I suspect it may have more to do with how camouflage fashion tends to be worn to project a "tough guy" image and is associated with some militant political groups.

Or maybe they just like khaki
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
As a centrist, I have been called both an extreme leftist and an extreme right-winger.
From Sydney, NSW. From Greek ancestry. Orthodox Christian.
Why stylised as "rePublic"
16 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution
Issue Ideas You Can Steal

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Posts: 20699
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Corporate Bordello

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:02 am

Wearing camouflage is a different issue really, I suggest it be treated as such in its own thread. Nothing wrong with this thread being about low-ridin' troosers.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:12 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Wearing camouflage is a different issue really, I suggest it be treated as such in its own thread. Nothing wrong with this thread being about low-ridin' troosers.

So pants sagging qualifies as something a national leader should give a shit about, but not pineapple pizza?
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
As a centrist, I have been called both an extreme leftist and an extreme right-winger.
From Sydney, NSW. From Greek ancestry. Orthodox Christian.
Why stylised as "rePublic"
16 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution
Issue Ideas You Can Steal

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USS Monitor
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Founded: Jul 01, 2015
19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:25 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Why are the ethnic minority wearing this? Is it actually traditional in their culture, or did they deliberately make up a weird fashion just for the sake of being different?


Some claim it was a prison chic thing, coming from the fact that you're not allowed belts in prison, and the right-sized clothing isn't always available.

However, like most fashions, it's hard to pin down exact origins. Regardless, it definitely has cultural associations, and those associated cultures have associations with some ethnic communities.

It's also kind of arbitrary to distinguish between a fashion that is traditional because it was in style five hundred or a thousand years ago, and a fashion that is traditional because it was in style 30 years ago.


My ex (who is a middle-aged black guy) said it was originally used in prison culture to signal to other inmates that you were sexually available -- but then some people thought it looked cool and started doing it without knowing the original meaning.

I'm not sure how reliable that info is, though. My ex was definitely interested in black history and culture, and had plenty of personal experience with the community -- but he wasn't always good at separating credible information from conspiracy theories.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
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USS Monitor
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Founded: Jul 01, 2015
19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:28 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Wearing camouflage is a different issue really, I suggest it be treated as such in its own thread. Nothing wrong with this thread being about low-ridin' troosers.

So pants sagging qualifies as something a national leader should give a shit about, but not pineapple pizza?


I'm not sure if we actually need an issue about sagging pants, but at least it has some cultural implications that pineapple pizza doesn't.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
NationStates issues editors may be harmful or fatal if swallowed. In case of accidental ingestion, please seek immediate medical assistance.
༄༅། །འགྲོ་བ་མི་རིགས་ག་ར་དབང་ཆ་འདྲ་མཉམ་འབད་སྒྱེཝ་ལས་ག་ར་གིས་གཅིག་གིས་གཅིག་ལུ་སྤུན་ཆའི་དམ་ཚིག་བསྟན་དགོས།

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Corporate Bordello

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:49 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Wearing camouflage is a different issue really, I suggest it be treated as such in its own thread. Nothing wrong with this thread being about low-ridin' troosers.

So pants sagging qualifies as something a national leader should give a shit about, but not pineapple pizza?


Not on its own, which is why it needs the additional element of how this is legislation that attacks ethnic minorities, as I've been saying all along.

As I said in your thread, the rule of thumb on issues about seemingly trivial things is that there should be a deeper issue concealed within it.

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Socio Polor
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Founded: Nov 28, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Socio Polor » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:54 pm

New Draft is up, hopefully it's of better standard now. I've also thought of adding an option that outlaws clothing, think it's necessary?
Edit: Also, should I keep the adult validity on here since this issue mentions pornstars, or is it alright amongst young players?
Last edited by Socio Polor on Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Man is nature. What we create is an extension of nature. God is nothing more than a symptom of an irrational fear of the unknown."
-Alvecia

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Australian rePublic
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Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:30 pm

Is it a fashion trend or is it just for confort?
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
As a centrist, I have been called both an extreme leftist and an extreme right-winger.
From Sydney, NSW. From Greek ancestry. Orthodox Christian.
Why stylised as "rePublic"
16 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution
Issue Ideas You Can Steal

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Socio Polor
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Founded: Nov 28, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Socio Polor » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:46 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:Is it a fashion trend or is it just for confort?

It's a fashion trend
"Man is nature. What we create is an extension of nature. God is nothing more than a symptom of an irrational fear of the unknown."
-Alvecia

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USS Monitor
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Founded: Jul 01, 2015
19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:12 pm

I feel like the cultural side of this could be handled better. Minorities aren't a monolithic group that all have the same culture. IRL, sagging pants isn't a "minority" thing. It's primarily an African-American thing. Or people that are into black culture. I'd suggest choosing an NPC ethnic group like Bigtopians or something, and giving the culture clash a more prominent role in the draft.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
NationStates issues editors may be harmful or fatal if swallowed. In case of accidental ingestion, please seek immediate medical assistance.
༄༅། །འགྲོ་བ་མི་རིགས་ག་ར་དབང་ཆ་འདྲ་མཉམ་འབད་སྒྱེཝ་ལས་ག་ར་གིས་གཅིག་གིས་གཅིག་ལུ་སྤུན་ཆའི་དམ་ཚིག་བསྟན་དགོས།

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Socio Polor
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Founded: Nov 28, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Socio Polor » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:26 pm

USS Monitor wrote:I feel like the cultural side of this could be handled better. Minorities aren't a monolithic group that all have the same culture. IRL, sagging pants isn't a "minority" thing. It's primarily an African-American thing. Or people that are into black culture. I'd suggest choosing an NPC ethnic group like Bigtopians or something, and giving the culture clash a more prominent role in the draft.

While you mostly do see African Americans do this, other minority groups such as Hispanics are also doing it. The only minority group I haven't seen do it often are Asian Americans. Though I see what you mean and will make the adjustement
Last edited by Socio Polor on Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Man is nature. What we create is an extension of nature. God is nothing more than a symptom of an irrational fear of the unknown."
-Alvecia

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Socio Polor
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Founded: Nov 28, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Socio Polor » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:56 pm

Updated based on Monitor's advice
"Man is nature. What we create is an extension of nature. God is nothing more than a symptom of an irrational fear of the unknown."
-Alvecia

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