[SUBMITTED - 8/8/2018] Herbal Trouble

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

[description]Recent hospital records show that there has been a rise in the incidence of miscarriages in @@NAME@@. Experts say that this is because many women are terminating their unwanted pregnancies by using some medicinal herbs like tansy or pennyroyal, which have abortifacient properties and are commonly grown as decorative plants by @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ gardeners.

[validity] No Abortion

1. [option]"This is a disgrace!" grunts @@RANDOMNAME@@, a vocal pro-life advocate, flourishing a bunch of pennyroyal flowers in your face. "These murderous witches always find a backdoor to kill those poor babies that ever had the misfortune to be begotten on them! @@LEADER@@, we should ban the sale of the seeds of these accursed plants, and immediately form a special division in the police department that will burn and eradicate them wherever they grow."

[effect]@@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ are wondering where all the flowers have gone

2. [option]"Look at my flowers!" interjects Ophelia @@RANDOMLASTNAME@@, an eccentric professor of horticulture from @@CAPITAL@@ University, walking into your room with a basket of flowers. "There's rosemary, that's for remembering. Please remember, love. And there are tansies, they’re for removing impurities. There’s a daisy - for decorating gardens. How dare you kill flowers, @@LEADER@@? You can punish the women who illegally use them to induce abortions, but please let all flowers grow freely." She then puts an amorphophallus titanum on your desk, and leaves the room singing.

[effect]@@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ junkies often argue that poppy stalks should be considered ornamental flowers

3. [option]"I hope you realize that it is not safe to abort a child by using these plants," mutters @@RANDOMNAME@@, a gynecologist from @@ANIMAL@@ Valley Hospital. "Let's admit it, @@LEADER@@. People will always find ways to circumvent laws that restrict their freedoms. If women are going to have abortions one way or another, wouldn't it be better if they had the chance to do so under the supervision of medical professionals? Think about how many lives we could save if you allowed abortions for medical emergencies at least."

[effect]herbal teas are only consumed by hipsters who want to look marginal

[Shwe Tu Colony]

Orange words are suggestions, orange ellipsis are removed phrases (unless connected to a word, in which case it is a suggested addition), underlined words are comments.

Code: Select all

[color=#FF6A00][/color]

[description]Recent hospital records show that there has been a rise in the incidence of miscarriages in @@NAME@@. Experts say that this is because many women are terminating their unwanted pregnancies by using ... medicinal herbs like tansy or pennyroyal, which have abortifacient properties and are found everywhere.

[validity] No Abortion

1. [option]"This is a disgrace!" grunts @@RANDOMNAME@@, a vocal pro-life advocate, flourishing a bunch of pennyroyal flowers in your face. "These murderous witches always find a backdoor to kill those poor babies that ... had the misfortune to be begotten on them! @@LEADER@@, we should ban the sale of the seeds of these accursed plants, and ... form a special division in the police department that will burn and eradicate them wherever they grow."

[effect]the heaths and hillsides of @@NAME@@ are perpetually being razed by police-induced wildfires

2. [option]"Look at my flowers!" interjects Ophelia @@RANDOMLASTNAME@@, an eccentric professor of horticulture from @@CAPITAL@@ University, walking into your room with a basket of flowers. "There's some rosemary ... for remembering... there’s a daisy for decorating gardens... And here are my favorite flowers: the wondrous, but sadly controversial, tansies. I know you're against abortions, but how dare you kill these flowers, @@LEADER@@! You can punish the women who illegally use them to induce abortions, but please let all flowers grow freely." She then puts a putrid amorphophallus titanum on your desk, and leaves the room singing.

[effect]@@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ junkies often argue that poppy stalks should be considered ornamental flowers

3. [option]"I hope you realize that it is not safe to abort a child by using these plants," mutters @@RANDOMNAME@@, a gynecologist from @@ANIMAL@@ Valley Hospital. "Let's admit it, @@LEADER@@: people will always find ways to circumnavigate laws that restrict their freedoms. If women are going to have abortions one way or another, wouldn't it be better if they had the chance to do so under the experienced supervision of medical professionals? Think about how many lives we could save if you allowed abortions for medical emergencies at least."

[effect]herbal teas are only consumed by hipsters who want to look marginal

[Australian rePublic]

Option 3- but what if @@NAME@@ already allows them for medical emergencies?

[The Free Joy State]

Option 3- but what if @@NAME@@ already allows them for medical emergencies?

It's true that "Back Alley Blues" does have an option to allow abortion in such limited circumstances it might as well not exist (however, the circumstances are so restricted that it doesn't actually remove the abortion ban IIRC). I'm actually not sure if that option can be coded to exclude nations that answered that option. TBH, as option #3 here specifically mentions removing the abortion ban, I'm not too sure that an exclusion would be necessary.

Might be a bit assumptive to say that tansy and pennyroyal grow everywhere, as it makes it sound like they flourish without help. Both are only endemic to certain parts of the world (although they have been introduced to others), which might make assumptions about climate. Perhaps saying "are commonly grown as decorative plants by @@DEMONYM@@ gardeners" might work better.

Also, the eccentric horticulturist in #2 wouldn't say tansies are for abortions. It's already stated in the opening, and that would disincline pro-life leaders from choosing the option. Instead, she'd pick one of its other properties. Apparently, it's supposed to treat joint pain. The character could mention that.

NB: It can also, apparently, be highly toxic. I'm not suggesting anyone use tansy.

[Trotterdam]

Option 3- but what if @@NAME@@ already allows them for medical emergencies?

It's true that "Back Alley Blues" does have an option to allow abortion in such limited circumstances it might as well not exist (however, the circumstances are so restricted that it doesn't actually remove the abortion ban IIRC).

It doesn't. However, #136 2, which comes from the other direction (abortion is previously legal rather than illegal) and bans abortion in all except the same limited circumstances, doesn't grant the No Abortion policy, either, which strikes me as inconsistent.

On a related note, #37 2, which really doesn't limit the internet so thoroughly that it might as well not exist (it sounds more like a Chinese Great Firewall-like option, and the internet is still pretty important in China), still does grant the No Internet policy.

NB: It can also, apparently, be highly toxic. I'm not suggesting anyone use tansy.

Not much of a surprise there. I mean, the point of an abortion is to kill someone. It makes sense that most of the things you can use for that are toxic. The question is if you can fine-tune the toxicity dosage just right so that it'll kill the child without seriously hurting the (much bigger and thus more resistant to poison) mother.

[The Free Joy State]

It's true that "Back Alley Blues" does have an option to allow abortion in such limited circumstances it might as well not exist (however, the circumstances are so restricted that it doesn't actually remove the abortion ban IIRC).

It doesn't. However, #136 2, which comes from the other direction (abortion is previously legal rather than illegal) and bans abortion in all except the same limited circumstances, doesn't grant the No Abortion policy, either, which strikes me as inconsistent.

On a related note, #37 2, which really doesn't limit the internet so thoroughly that it might as well not exist (it sounds more like a Chinese Great Firewall-like option, and the internet is still pretty important in China), still does grant the No Internet policy.

Trotterdam, this is FuF's draft. If you have no feedback but want to discuss policies that you see as being inconsistently applied, I suggest you start a thread.

Although, I can say that, IMO, the two abortion examples are not equivalent. One bans all abortions except for rape and medical emergency. Back Alley Blues option two upholds the ban, except for "proven, legitimate" rape, and where the mother will certainly die, but only up to nine weeks and if the father gives consent. They are not the same.

NB: It can also, apparently, be highly toxic. I'm not suggesting anyone use tansy.

Not much of a surprise there. I mean, the point of an abortion is to kill someone. It makes sense that most of the things you can use for that are toxic. The question is if you can fine-tune the toxicity dosage just right so that it'll kill the child without seriously hurting the (much bigger and thus more resistant to poison) mother.

"Killing a child" is emotionally loaded language and many people do not view abortion as that. Especially as the foetus is almost never developed enough to survive independently when the pregnancy is terminated. The majority (92%) are completed before thirteen weeks' gestation, and 81% of those are completed before 10 weeks.

[Trotterdam]

"Killing a child" is emotionally loaded language and many people do not view abortion as that.

That's why I said "killing", not "murdering". Abortion is undeniably killing a living thing, regardless of the moral judgement you place on that action or even whether you consider it to be a "person". I mean, plants and bacteria are living things which can be killed, and you cannot tell me that a fetus is less alive than a bacterium.

"A child" is more emotionally-loaded, but that was the less-important half of my statement (explaining why an abortificent is toxic) and I had to identify the target in some way.

Especially as the foetus is almost never developed enough to survive independently when the pregnancy is terminated.

So it's perfectly okay to kill people on life support?

I'm not even talking about #1004-type stuff here. There are people who are unambiguously fully-conscious but still cannot survive without life support.

If you don't approve of withholding such life support without their explicit consent (which would make it euthanasia), you're going to need to be more careful in your argument.

[The Free Joy State]

"Killing a child" is emotionally loaded language and many people do not view abortion as that.

That's why I said "killing", not "murdering". Abortion is undeniably killing a living thing, regardless of the moral judgement you place on that action or even whether you consider it to be a "person". I mean, plants and bacteria are living things which can be killed, and you cannot tell me that a fetus is less alive than a bacterium.

"A child" is more emotionally-loaded, but that was the less-important half of my statement (explaining why an abortificent is toxic) and I had to identify the target in some way.

"Foetus" works. It's more technically accurate, too.

Especially as the foetus is almost never developed enough to survive independently when the pregnancy is terminated.

So it's perfectly okay to kill people on life support?

I'm not even talking about #1004-type stuff here. There are people who are unambiguously fully-conscious but still cannot survive without life support.

If you don't approve of withholding such life support without their explicit consent (which would make it euthanasia), you're going to need to be more careful in your argument.

You see, thus is the problem with vagaries like "person", "child" and et cetera when talking about terminating a pregnancy. Your words can be twisted.

Happily, I never said "person". I said "foetus". My terminology was perfectly clear and incredibly careful.

I am talking, quite unambiguously, about a foetus. Typically a foetus of less than thirteen weeks, to be exact (as I clarified on the sentence you edited out). With an undeveloped nervous system.

Nothing I said suggests I support withdrawing life support from willing or unwilling human beings who are or were formerly sentient.

But this isn't the NS General Abortion thread.

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Orange words are suggestions, orange ellipsis are removed phrases (unless connected to a word, in which case it is a suggested addition), underlined words are comments.

Code: Select all

[color=#FF6A00][/color]

[description]Recent hospital records show that there has been a rise in the incidence of miscarriages in @@NAME@@. Experts say that this is because many women are terminating their unwanted pregnancies by using ... medicinal herbs like tansy or pennyroyal, which have abortifacient properties and are found everywhere.

[validity] No Abortion

1. [option]"This is a disgrace!" grunts @@RANDOMNAME@@, a vocal pro-life advocate, flourishing a bunch of pennyroyal flowers in your face. "These murderous witches always find a backdoor to kill those poor babies that ... had the misfortune to be begotten on them! @@LEADER@@, we should ban the sale of the seeds of these accursed plants, and ... form a special division in the police department that will burn and eradicate them wherever they grow."

[effect]the heaths and hillsides of @@NAME@@ are perpetually being razed by police-induced wildfires

2. [option]"Look at my flowers!" interjects Ophelia @@RANDOMLASTNAME@@, an eccentric professor of horticulture from @@CAPITAL@@ University, walking into your room with a basket of flowers. "There's some rosemary ... for remembering... there’s a daisy for decorating gardens... And here are my favorite flowers: the wondrous, but sadly controversial, tansies. I know you're against abortions, but how dare you kill these flowers, @@LEADER@@! You can punish the women who illegally use them to induce abortions, but please let all flowers grow freely." She then puts a putrid amorphophallus titanum on your desk, and leaves the room singing.

[effect]@@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ junkies often argue that poppy stalks should be considered ornamental flowers

3. [option]"I hope you realize that it is not safe to abort a child by using these plants," mutters @@RANDOMNAME@@, a gynecologist from @@ANIMAL@@ Valley Hospital. "Let's admit it, @@LEADER@@: people will always find ways to circumnavigate laws that restrict their freedoms. If women are going to have abortions one way or another, wouldn't it be better if they had the chance to do so under the experienced supervision of medical professionals? Think about how many lives we could save if you allowed abortions for medical emergencies at least."

[effect]herbal teas are only consumed by hipsters who want to look marginal

Thanks for your detailed suggestions Shwe Tu Colony! I implemented many of them, perhaps with the glaring exception of Option 2, since this option is based on a passage in Hamlet where Ophelia has lost her sanity after her father's death, and comes into the room with a bunch of flowers, sings incoherently and distributes the flowers to the people present by saying things about them. In fact, "There's rosemary, that's for remembering. Please remember, love." is a verbatim quote from the play, which I am reluctant to change. Also, the original version of "And there are tansies," was "And there are pansies," in Hamlet.

I also don't know if I should say that amorphophallus titanum is a putrid plant. I'd honestly prefer people to Google it out of curiosity, and then be surprised by what they see. How many people would care to Google it is another question, of course.

Option 3- but what if @@NAME@@ already allows them for medical emergencies?

It's true that "Back Alley Blues" does have an option to allow abortion in such limited circumstances it might as well not exist (however, the circumstances are so restricted that it doesn't actually remove the abortion ban IIRC). I'm actually not sure if that option can be coded to exclude nations that answered that option. TBH, as option #3 here specifically mentions removing the abortion ban, I'm not too sure that an exclusion would be necessary.

Might be a bit assumptive to say that tansy and pennyroyal grow everywhere, as it makes it sound like they flourish without help. Both are only endemic to certain parts of the world (although they have been introduced to others), which might make assumptions about climate. Perhaps saying "are commonly grown as decorative plants by @@DEMONYM@@ gardeners" might work better.

Also, the eccentric horticulturist in #2 wouldn't say tansies are for abortions. It's already stated in the opening, and that would disincline pro-life leaders from choosing the option. Instead, she'd pick one of its other properties. Apparently, it's supposed to treat joint pain. The character could mention that.

NB: It can also, apparently, be highly toxic. I'm not suggesting anyone use tansy.

OK, I changed the description and I now say that tansies and pennyroyal are commonly grown as decorative plants, as you suggested.

For Option 2, I looked at some further uses of tansies, and it seems it can be used for "repelling flies and other pests." So I mentioned "repelling pests" in this option. One could also suspect that this was a very cheeky and insensitive way of talking about an unwanted foetus, i.e., as a pest.

Should I take this out, though?

[The Free Joy State]

It's true that "Back Alley Blues" does have an option to allow abortion in such limited circumstances it might as well not exist (however, the circumstances are so restricted that it doesn't actually remove the abortion ban IIRC). I'm actually not sure if that option can be coded to exclude nations that answered that option. TBH, as option #3 here specifically mentions removing the abortion ban, I'm not too sure that an exclusion would be necessary.

Might be a bit assumptive to say that tansy and pennyroyal grow everywhere, as it makes it sound like they flourish without help. Both are only endemic to certain parts of the world (although they have been introduced to others), which might make assumptions about climate. Perhaps saying "are commonly grown as decorative plants by @@DEMONYM@@ gardeners" might work better.

Also, the eccentric horticulturist in #2 wouldn't say tansies are for abortions. It's already stated in the opening, and that would disincline pro-life leaders from choosing the option. Instead, she'd pick one of its other properties. Apparently, it's supposed to treat joint pain. The character could mention that.

NB: It can also, apparently, be highly toxic. I'm not suggesting anyone use tansy.

OK, I changed the description and I now say that tansies and pennyroyal are commonly grown as decorative plants, as you suggested.

For Option 2, I looked at some further uses of tansies, and it seems it can be used for "repelling flies and other pests." So I mentioned "repelling pests" in this option. One could also suspect that this was a very cheeky and insensitive way of talking about an unwanted foetus, i.e., as a pest.

Should I take this out, though?

I like the subtle hint idea.

Possible that referring to foetuses as "pests" might attract criticism, though. Abortion is one of the things people feel strongly about, as you know.

I remember reading about how abortifacients were sold in legitimate magazines in the Victorian eras "a pleasant remedy for obstructions and irregularities" -- "removing impurities" was also used (with the warning that women who "desired an increase in their family" shouldn't use them), so it's also true.

Pennyroyal is apparently used as a flea-killing bath and to kill germs on the skin, also mouth ulcers. If you wanted something gentler*, you could switch to pennyroyal and use "remove impurities"?

EDIT: Although, pennyroyal is hugely toxic. To get enough to abort, a woman has to apparently consume enough to damage her liver and/or kidneys, so YMMV as to whether the change would be an improvement.

I almost feel like this issue needs a public health warning.

*terminology, not herb

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

OK, I changed the description and I now say that tansies and pennyroyal are commonly grown as decorative plants, as you suggested.

For Option 2, I looked at some further uses of tansies, and it seems it can be used for "repelling flies and other pests." So I mentioned "repelling pests" in this option. One could also suspect that this was a very cheeky and insensitive way of talking about an unwanted foetus, i.e., as a pest.

Should I take this out, though?

I like the subtle hint idea.

Possible that referring to foetuses as "pests" might attract criticism, though. Abortion is one of the things people feel strongly about, as you know.

I remember reading about how abortifacients were sold in legitimate magazines in the Victorian eras "a pleasant remedy for obstructions and irregularities" -- "removing impurities" was also used (with the warning that women who "desired an increase in their family" shouldn't use them), so it's also true.

Pennyroyal is apparently used as a flea-killing bath and to kill germs on the skin, also mouth ulcers. If you wanted something gentler*, you could switch to pennyroyal and use "remove impurities"?

EDIT: Although, pennyroyal is hugely toxic. To get enough to abort, a woman has to apparently consume enough to damage her live and/or kidneys, so YMMV as to whether the change would be an improvement.

I almost feel like this issue needs a public health warning.

*terminology, not herb

OK, implemented, thanks.

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Bump?

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Last call before submission

[Hediacrana]

Looks good to me!

As an alternative effect line for option 1, maybe consider having a "Where have all the flowers have gone" reference?

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

Looks good to me!

As an alternative effect line for option 1, maybe consider having a "Where have all the flowers have gone" reference?

Aww, nice idea! Implemented

Fun fact: When I was in high school, our German teachers had taught us the German version of this song. I didn't know it also had an English version!

[Hediacrana]

That version happens to be the one I grew up with too, and because of that, the English version has always felt a little off to me.