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[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.

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Ransium
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 5590
Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Ransium » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:33 am

Hinomar wrote:Hey, I belive I am going to stumble on more in the near future.

The one that I got the most recently was NationStates Issue No. 613 "A Nude Day, A Nude Awakening...".
When I chose third option, I lost civil rights points which just isn't right.
It allowed them to do things that might be frowned upon by others, which wouldnt lessen their rights. If anything, it should have boosted the rudeness by quite bit.


If you want to report unusual issue effects please read the first post in this thread, specifically for this post the second spoiler. This issue involves a trade-off of rights quite explicitly:

"Quite frankly, celebrities and politicians should give up their expectations of privacy."


Also, it does boost rudeness quite a bit.

Please keep in mind, we do this thread to find things like what ROFLOLMAO LAND just reported, not to re-litigate every single issue's effects from the poster's perspective. The former is invaluable, the latter can become tiring pretty quick.

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest since March 20th, 2007.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445.
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017.
Author of 21 issues. First editor of 43.
Forum Moderator since November 10th, 2017. Game Moderator since March 15th, 2018.

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Ransium
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 5590
Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Ransium » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:37 am

ROFLOLMAO LAND wrote:
Luna Amore wrote:It is.

Then why do I get the "frequent executions" descriptor on occasion still?


The issue will work in the future. As to fixing the past effects like yours, it's going to take admin to fix, and may or may not happen, I'll try to make sure someone posts about it in the future when actions are taken. Anyone who is seeing the death penalty act in odd ways after answering newish issues about the death penalty before this post, we know.

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest since March 20th, 2007.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445.
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017.
Author of 21 issues. First editor of 43.
Forum Moderator since November 10th, 2017. Game Moderator since March 15th, 2018.

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Trotterdam
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7087
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:36 am

[violet] wrote:Thanks for the report! This was an algorithm bug, now fixed, that affected a minority of nations across a number of census scales. It's related to the way that extreme values are scaled for display in order to reflect the increasing difficulty of reaching either end of many 0-100 scales.
[violet] wrote:The secondary scaling algorithm now applies correctly in all cases, so that an increase in a nation's underlying score will always be reflected in an increase in the displayed score. Due to the fix, some nations with scores around 99 who should have been under the supervision of the secondary algorithm but weren't will see a one-off decrease of about half a point, usually less.
Very interesting! Have nations whose value was calculated incorrectly been automatically updated, or do they need to answer an issue for the game to recalculate their displayed stats?

My Integrity stayed at 98.88, even when I answered an issue, so I guess that it having briefly been 98.98 was a fluke resulting from this bug and 98.88 is the correct value. But I can't tell for sure whether anyone ranked above me is still displaying the bugged value and should actually be below me.

I was briefly #18 in the world, but I guess that was a bug :(

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Skullton
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 4
Founded: Aug 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Skullton » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:31 pm

In the issue named "Police Consider "Big Brother" Anti-Crime System", I picked the second option, allowing the police force to install cameras in public places. But my safety went down by a couple percentage points? :blink: You'd think with security cameras safety would go up as any crime committed in a major public area would be recorded before anyone could report it, allowing the police to act faster.

EDIT: Again, safety went down after I voted on the issue about Nazi sympathisers to make their political views illegal. Also corruption went up?? Nazis are illegal yet its less safe and more corrupt than before. I'm so confused
Last edited by Skullton on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ransium
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Posts: 5590
Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Ransium » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:32 pm

Ransium wrote:
ROFLOLMAO LAND wrote:Then why do I get the "frequent executions" descriptor on occasion still?


The issue will work in the future. As to fixing the past effects like yours, it's going to take admin to fix, and may or may not happen, I'll try to make sure someone posts about it in the future when actions are taken. Anyone who is seeing the death penalty act in odd ways after answering newish issues about the death penalty before this post, we know.


Looks like fixing previous choices will be too hard, sorry.

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest since March 20th, 2007.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445.
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017.
Author of 21 issues. First editor of 43.
Forum Moderator since November 10th, 2017. Game Moderator since March 15th, 2018.

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[violet]
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14211
Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:43 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Have nations whose value was calculated incorrectly been automatically updated, or do they need to answer an issue for the game to recalculate their displayed stats?

They've already been updated.

Trotterdam wrote:My Integrity stayed at 98.88, even when I answered an issue, so I guess that it having briefly been 98.98 was a fluke resulting from this bug and 98.88 is the correct value.

That's right, the 98.98 value was buggy. There was a very small window of values that fell into this bug in Integrity; only those between 98.87 and 98.99.

Trotterdam wrote:I was briefly #18 in the world, but I guess that was a bug :(

Sadly yes.
Last edited by [violet] on Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Omniscientia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Aug 23, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Omniscientia » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:26 am

Nation: Omniscientia https://www.nationstates.net/nation=omniscientia
Date: 2017-09-11
Issue: #265 To Bail or Not to Bail?

Choosing option #2 (refusing to bail out failing companies) seems to result in setting Welfare to 0 (which I guess is acceptable) but also more importantly it seems to set your economy to the world average? (which in my case was from 100 / top 0.7% to 64 / top 50% :| ) Or was that just a coincidence? https://imgur.com/a/E35iE

There was also a slew of secondary effects (Lifespan, Human Development, Average Income, Economic Output) some of which have already recovered.

My understanding is that a moderator already changed this issue (when he accidentally saw my post in my regional board) and that there is no way to retroactivelly change issue effects?

However there might be a possible problem with setting the economy to the world average, as opposed to just reducing it by a fixed number: Since my economy was already very highly ranked, and thus all the previous issues were answered in a manner that favors economic growth, re-answering the same issues again in the same manner seems to do nothing and my economy seems to be perpetually stuck around the 70 mark?

Or maybe I'm just getting bad issues? Or even worse, maybe I need to wait until issue #265 comes up again? Either way, seems disproportionate that one issue should carry so much weight (although, as I said, it's already been fixed)

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:43 pm

You're correct that the issue has already been fixed, though this was by me rather than a moderator. Basically changed the stats drastically so that option no longer eviscerates economies, which is something it has done for so very long.

As for changing stats retroactively, that IS something you'd need a moderator for. However, it's generally not something that's done. The game is full of skewy effects, and we fix them as we go, but retroactively undoing those skewy effects would affect too many nations. In the last 28 days, for example, 932 nations have picked that option.

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Koem Kab
Envoy
 
Posts: 294
Founded: Dec 09, 2016
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Koem Kab » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:59 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Koem Kab wrote:issue 305, option 1 was chosen from a communist puppet, and it resulted in a decrease in employment.
Specific Puppet?

The cheap child labor also will be displacing more expensive adult laborers.


This affect was kinda forgotten after that post. Anyway, why would cheap child labor displacing adults decrease employment? Wouldn't it increase employment increase because more people can get employed, or at the very least, no change since they would be just replaced?

I didnt think a puppet was needed, here it is anyway.
Last edited by Koem Kab on Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:32 am

Employment has been applied inconsistently in the past, thanks to a little vagueness in the definitions. The stat graph is called Employment, then the description says its the percentage of citizens that are employed, and then the graph calls it Workforce Participation Rate.

These are all three different concepts, so as of 10 days ago I had a conversation with the powers that be to clarify what Employment actually means.

The answer is that the number is the percentage of the entire living human populace of the nation (whether citizens or not, whether capable of work or not, whether babies or adults), who are in work.

Now there is a clear definition, it's more clear what the right answer is, and the right answer is now that introducing child labour would increase Employment (by the NS definition of the term). A whole bunch of other circumstances were discussed, and now we can say with some confidence what the simulations intentions are.

Executing those intentions, however, is not currently done. There's been many, many years of there being no single approach to this stat, and only 10 days of a unified approach. Give us some time, and it'll be consistent.

This is, of course, one of the many continuous reviews of the simulation we're undertaking for y'all at the moment.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Trotterdam
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7087
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:50 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:The answer is that the number is the percentage of the entire living human populace of the nation (whether citizens or not, whether capable of work or not, whether babies or adults), who are in work.
By extension, non-humans, such as AIs, do not count, even if you give them citizenship rights?

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:35 pm

Trotterdam wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:The answer is that the number is the percentage of the entire living human populace of the nation (whether citizens or not, whether capable of work or not, whether babies or adults), who are in work.
By extension, non-humans, such as AIs, do not count, even if you give them citizenship rights?


Correct. I asked that exact same thing.

And automation of tasks increases unemployment, even if the robots involved are AI citizens.

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TURTLESHROOM II
Minister
 
Posts: 2675
Founded: Dec 08, 2014
Moralistic Democracy

OH COME ON!!

Postby TURTLESHROOM II » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:39 pm

There is absolutely nothing I can do to lower my Corruption. Everything I take to lower it drops it by less than ten points or so, but everything that raises it inceases it by twice that, at minimum!

-but the last straw came tonight. I finally got the "Government Saturated In Corruption" Issue, and I chose the most extreme solution: hang all politicians who exhibit corruption.

My Corruption went UP. Worse yet, my Political Freedoms tanked.

Why are there so many Issues that involve reducing Corruption that INCREASE Corruption when you take them?! In "Mayors Behaving Badly", if you hold mayors to fanatically strict codes of ethics, your corruption rises there, too.

Corruption cannot be reduced by significant amounts per Issue, but some Issues can double it. Why is this so unfair to those of us who DON'T want corrupt states?
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Nothing wrong with [that] when you have year round tumblr attendance.
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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:23 am

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:There is absolutely nothing I can do to lower my Corruption. Everything I take to lower it drops it by less than ten points or so, but everything that raises it inceases it by twice that, at minimum!

-but the last straw came tonight. I finally got the "Government Saturated In Corruption" Issue, and I chose the most extreme solution: hang all politicians who exhibit corruption.

My Corruption went UP. Worse yet, my Political Freedoms tanked.

Why are there so many Issues that involve reducing Corruption that INCREASE Corruption when you take them?! In "Mayors Behaving Badly", if you hold mayors to fanatically strict codes of ethics, your corruption rises there, too.

Corruption cannot be reduced by significant amounts per Issue, but some Issues can double it. Why is this so unfair to those of us who DON'T want corrupt states?


Please read the FAQ on the opening post. Specifically, the fourth spoiler tag which I added 48 hours previous to your observation.

Which was good timing, really.

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The Gamma Monster
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 11
Founded: Feb 14, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Gamma Monster » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:09 pm

Issue 520 Option 1 Decreased My primitiveness, also didn't get option 4 for that issue.
Last edited by The Gamma Monster on Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:30 pm

The game defines primitiveness as being your openness to "primitive" ideas and ways, so it judges that the more religious your nation, the more "primitive" you are. This is a loaded definition, admittedly, and it has been discussed backstage before, but structural changes to the game engine are not frequently or easily undertaken.

Not every nation will get option 4. Many issue options have "option validity criteria", so that they only appear for certain nations. In one issue, it's possible for a player to receive anything between 4 and 11 options, depending on their nation.
At the time you received that issue, you didn't fulfil the validity criteria for that option. You do now, incidentally.

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Transmillenia Consort
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 9
Founded: Apr 09, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Transmillenia Consort » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:02 pm

in issue vol 32 issue 336 "polygamy causes division" selecting to ban polygamy causes Civil rights score to drop. Checking the available resources specifically UN Human Rights Committee, General Comment 28, Equality of rights between men and women (article 3), U.N. Doc. CCPR/C/21/Rev.1/Add.10 (2000). it turns out to be quite the opposite. Human Rights sources clearly states that polygamy should be banned.

"the right to choose one´s spouse may be restricted by laws or practices that prevent the marriage of a woman of a particular religion with a man who professes no religion or a different religion. States should provide information on these laws and practices and on the measures taken to abolish the laws and eradicate the practices which undermine the right of women to marry only when they have given free and full consent. It should also be noted that equality of treatment with regard to the right to marry implies that polygamy is incompatible with this principle. Polygamy violates the dignity of women. It is an inadmissible discrimination against women. Consequently, it should be definitely abolished wherever it continues to exist. "
Last edited by Transmillenia Consort on Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:51 am

Very sensible point there, and back when I was writing issues here as a non-editor I went into even greater length over how the NS definition of Civil Rights is very odd, and went off into a full-on rant about ius civis, various civil rights acts in various nations and the like. Never got as far as the UN Human Rights Committee, but that woulda been a good thing to discuss too.

Broadly, I agree with you, and think that polygamy detriments civil rights movements by being a tool of perpetuating a power gap in gender inequality.

However, here's a well-known secret: the NS Civil Rights stat doesn't really measure civil rights. It measures freedom from authority.

So basically, whenever you gain freedom from government in this game, you gain Civil Rights.

The government doesn't get in the way of gun ownership. You gain civil rights.
Doctors don't get to decide treatments for you. You gain civil rights.
The police don't arrest you for murder. You gain civil rights.
The government doesn't force you to give your kids an education. You gain civil rights.

What we're looking at in this game is a series of predefined metrics on freedom from authority, and then judging the changes to those. We're not looking at something as a whole, and saying "is this pro civil rights or not?".

Its got fuzzy edges, but in the case of this issue, it's clear cut for simulation purposes. The government regulating marriage in any way is an infringement on civil rights, by the NS definition.

Now if this were a better written issue, it would flag the points that you raise, about the downsides of polygamy.

As it is, the best fix for this is to draft a follow up issue that goes on after polygamy is allowed, and to point out the intrinsic downsides to this approach within that narrative, and ask for a decision to be made.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Solus Unus
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 6
Founded: Dec 09, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Solus Unus » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:10 am

On issue #538, "@@LEADER@@, Let Your People Go!," I (Solus Unus) picked the third option today (2017-10-17). For some reason, even though that option was "get rid of gendered restrooms," that lowers civil rights.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:12 am

Solus Unus wrote:On issue #538, "@@LEADER@@, Let Your People Go!," I (Solus Unus) picked the third option today (2017-10-17). For some reason, even though that option was "get rid of gendered restrooms," that lowers civil rights.


This is covered by the FAQ in the OP, specifically with regards to privacy.

You've not only made it so that anybody can use any restroom, you've also made it so that people can't have gendered bathrooms even if they want to. Nobody can object to a woman hanging around the urinals to check out male "length", for example.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Solus Unus
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 6
Founded: Dec 09, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Solus Unus » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:25 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:You've not only made it so that anybody can use any restroom, you've also made it so that people can't have gendered bathrooms even if they want to. Nobody can object to a woman hanging around the urinals to check out male "length", for example.

I really don't feel that would be the case. If something along the lines of banning gender segregated restrooms were to exist in real life, it would most likely be only stalls. I feel the lack of privacy really doesn't apply any more than if the bathroom was just one with only stalls in the first place. Also, gendered restrooms generally can cause civil rights negatives IRL, such as the discrimination against transgender and gender non-conforming people. Just my two cents on the matter.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:28 am

Its a multifaceted option, with different civil rights at play. In fact, a neutrally positioned nation would see civil rights rise on this issue.

See the opening FAQ for a hint at how the game engine works, but basically this is one of those cases where the civil rights positives didn't register in your nation, but the negatives did.

I feel there definitely WOULD be some invasion of privacy, even if its just being within hearing range. Ultimately, there are folk who'd prefer gendered bathrooms, and you're forcing them to go against their preferences.

Also let's be clear here - you're not retrofitting the nation's toilets with stalls. You're instead making all toilets as they currently are into ungendered ones. You're literally taking the gender signs off the door, and saying that it's not allowed to have gender-only bathrooms.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:34 am

Tell ya what I'm going to do though.

I'm going to leave the invasion of privacy as an infringement of rights, but I'm going to add more recognition to the pro civil rights stance here, around the various freedoms and trans-positive messages that this sends.

That should make it even more likely that civil rights will rise rather than fall, but it still won't be 100% absolute. All will depend on nation starting position.

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Teh War Machine
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 6
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Teh War Machine » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:26 pm

Option 3 of issue 239 decreased my average income by 5000 dollars. Why so much?
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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 17383
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:07 pm

Teh War Machine wrote:Option 3 of issue 239 decreased my average income by 5000 dollars. Why so much?


Because that was the amount the simulation suggested it should change by.

Why are you considering this to be an unusual effect?

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