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[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.

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Noahs Second Country
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 1823
Founded: Aug 31, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Noahs Second Country » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:58 am

Baizou wrote:
  • Baizou
  • December 21, 2020
  • What Goes Up Breaks Down, #1005
I chose the last option, proposed by the Minister of Austerity, which calls for scrapping/not replacing the air force's jet fighters. Defense Forces accordingly plummeted more than 300 points, but very strangely the Arms Manufacturing industry grew by a point. I'm curious how that came to be.

A single point of growth isn't exactly substantial but notice that many of your other industries increased by similar margins.

By reducing the military budget, an incredibly small bit of funding was reallocated towards your other government areas, including business subsidization. Ultimately that small bump is what appears to have caused a ripple effect in your industries.
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Humanilitas
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 8
Founded: Mar 04, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Humanilitas » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:13 am

Just got issue 703. The protestor set himself on fire and I said it was his fault. That was somehow interpreted as adding capital punishment. In what world does that make sense? Letting someone kill themself isn't the same as adding the death penalty to your criminal justice system.

"The hills are alive with the smell of burning flesh."

Sure.

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Electrum
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 3299
Founded: Jan 20, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby Electrum » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:43 am

Humanilitas wrote:Just got issue 703. The protestor set himself on fire and I said it was his fault. That was somehow interpreted as adding capital punishment. In what world does that make sense? Letting someone kill themself isn't the same as adding the death penalty to your criminal justice system.

"The hills are alive with the smell of burning flesh."

Sure.


The option reads (emphasis added):

"It is a sign that we should not be tolerating these false religions that mislead their followers! Why have we not done anything about this yet? I say we round up all these heathens that refuse to accept the truth and put them to the torch; then they'll finally meet their TRUE maker!"
Just a regular G.I. Joe - list of issue ideas

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Rocain Founder
Secretary
 
Posts: 32
Founded: Aug 01, 2020
Father Knows Best State

Postby Rocain Founder » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:58 am

Forgive me if this is a known phenomenon, a little searching did not turn up anything.

I have a bunch of puppets that get their issues answered by scripts. One such is Cain G LoK Cru v0. On 12/30/2020 between 9 and 10 AM Eastern time it answered issue #192 with option 1 (internal code 0), acquiescing to a coup d'etat. It suddenly became an Inoffensive Centrist Democracy, and all its spending was zeroed. The former was an effect I knew about, and the latter is rather logical. However, it also developed a negative tax rate. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. Since then, I've answered a few more issues for it, one of which converted it from Socialism to Capitalism. Its tax rate continues to fall, and is now at -3.90.

Assuming this tax rate is meaningful, I have observed a couple of inconsistencies.

  1. The Averge Income and the Average Disposable Income are the same. If the negative tax rate is truly meaningful, the Disposable Income should be higher.
  2. Needless to say, this nation has a very low position in the world ranking for Taxation (511 from the bottom). However. it is in position 27,060 in the Freedom from Taxation ranking. I would expect it to be considerably higher in this ranking.

I've put this nation into Vacation Mode and taken it out of my scripts in case anyone wants to have a look.

Feel free to direct me elsewhere on the Forum where this phenomenon is explained if there is something my searches failed to turn up!

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Trotterdam
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9236
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:16 am

Essentially, negative tax rate doesn't actually mean negative tax in the sense that the government gives you money (that would be Welfare). Rather, it means that you have zero tax, and also strong cultural and political barriers to reinstituting taxation.

It's just because the game model wants to have some way to tiebreak all the nations that would otherwise be tied for zero tax.

I can't explain your Freedom from Taxation observation though. You'd expect that "strong cultural and political barriers to reinstituting taxation" would imply pretty good freedom from taxation. But then Freedom from Taxation not quite matching up with Taxation has long been a known factor, though I don't remember exactly how they differ.

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PSYCHOTIC DICTATORSHIP ALGERSTONIA
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Dec 31, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby PSYCHOTIC DICTATORSHIP ALGERSTONIA » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:29 pm

I just got done with issue "Much Ado About Abortion" and it screwed up my social conservatism stats- put it from 0.2% to 2%. And I had picked the issue that bans abortion in all cases. Wouldn't that be by definition a greater restriction placed on what I can do in my personal life?

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Fauxia
Senator
 
Posts: 4686
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Fauxia » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:15 pm

PSYCHOTIC DICTATORSHIP ALGERSTONIA wrote:I just got done with issue "Much Ado About Abortion" and it screwed up my social conservatism stats- put it from 0.2% to 2%. And I had picked the issue that bans abortion in all cases. Wouldn't that be by definition a greater restriction placed on what I can do in my personal life?

I'm not exactly sure what 0.2% to 2% means, but you seem upset that your civil rights increased/social conservatism fell. Here's what the IEs say.
The Free Joy State wrote:Awhile back, the team (aware of the deep and personal feelings around the sensitive issue of abortion) took the -- perhaps controversial decision -- to (generally speaking, allowing for individual stats) programme a civil rights rise for both banning and allowing abortion.

Due to the strength of emotion it raises, we felt it inappropriate to come down on either side of this debate.
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Svenskskit
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: May 12, 2020
Corporate Police State

Postby Svenskskit » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:52 pm

Bringing up Issue 136 "Much Ado About Abortion", option 4 (instituting the one-child policy)'s massive authoritarianism drop again. I did a little searching and found out that there was a rationalization for this effect, albeit (to me) not a very satisfactory one:

The Free Joy State wrote:It plays off two rights: the right to control your own body (which, being about as restricted as they could get in your nation, didn't really have anywhere to go) and the freedom "to spend money elsewhere" (which increased). As your people are about as restricted as they could be, the system weighted the latter freedoms more.


I don't think anyone would have interpreted the "they can spend their money elsewhere" clause of the prompt as a freedom rather than the logical consequence of having fewer children to feed. Besides, the authoritarianism drop also happens to nations that aren't "as restricted as they can be" (like mine, which only had 2.3k authoritarianism before the -300 drop), which suggests that this option bizarrely thinks saving an extra couple grand a year while getting your reproductive freedom curtailed and your children forcibly sold into slavery is a net reduction in state oppression.

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Quartia and Karafuto
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 128
Founded: Jul 26, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quartia and Karafuto » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:38 am

Nation: Quartia and Karafuto
Date: yesterday
Issue: 75 (Cutting Off Sex Offenders)
Why does option 1 of the above issue give my nation the "Corporal Punishment" policy? The definition of Corporal Punishment from Wikipedia: "is a punishment intended to cause physical pain to a person." The punishment there isn't intended to cause pain, it's intended as prevention of further harm.
Last edited by Quartia and Karafuto on Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
My nation - which is pretty much just a unified Korea with some extra territory - represents my real views, as does pretty much anything I say on the forums. NS stats only broadly representative. Feel free to call me Q&K, Quartia, or any other nickname. Member of LITA

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Fauxia
Senator
 
Posts: 4686
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Fauxia » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:24 am

Quartia and Karafuto wrote:Nation: Quartia and Karafuto
Date: yesterday
Issue: 75 (Cutting Off Sex Offenders)
Why does option 1 of the above issue give my nation the "Corporal Punishment" policy? The definition of Corporal Punishment from Wikipedia: "is a punishment intended to cause physical pain to a person." The punishment there isn't intended to cause pain, it's intended as prevention of further harm.

And torture is intended to get information, not primarily to cause pain...

Anyway, this is NationStates, so you want to look at the NationStates definition, not the wikipedia one.
Corporal Punishment: Criminals may be ordered to undergo physical punishment.

Castration is most certainly physical punishment.
Last edited by Fauxia on Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reploid Productions wrote:Unfortunately, Max still won't buy the mods elite ninja assassin squads to use, so... no such luck.
Sandaoguo wrote:GP is a den of cynics and nihilists

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Quartia and Karafuto
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 128
Founded: Jul 26, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quartia and Karafuto » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:42 am

Fauxia wrote:And torture is intended to get information, not primarily to cause pain...

Anyway, this is NationStates, so you want to look at the NationStates definition, not the wikipedia one.
Corporal Punishment: Criminals may be ordered to undergo physical punishment.

Castration is most certainly physical punishment.

Alright, reasonable. If I were to get that issue again and choose differently, would the policy be removed?
My nation - which is pretty much just a unified Korea with some extra territory - represents my real views, as does pretty much anything I say on the forums. NS stats only broadly representative. Feel free to call me Q&K, Quartia, or any other nickname. Member of LITA

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Trotterdam
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9236
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:55 pm

It looks like right now, #494 is the only issue that can remove corporal punishment.

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Quartia and Karafuto
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 128
Founded: Jul 26, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quartia and Karafuto » Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:19 pm

Trotterdam wrote:It looks like right now, #494 is the only issue that can remove corporal punishment.

Is it at least at an increased rate for nations with the policy? I would love to undo this mistake as soon as possible.
My nation - which is pretty much just a unified Korea with some extra territory - represents my real views, as does pretty much anything I say on the forums. NS stats only broadly representative. Feel free to call me Q&K, Quartia, or any other nickname. Member of LITA

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Fauxia
Senator
 
Posts: 4686
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Fauxia » Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:04 am

Quartia and Karafuto wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:It looks like right now, #494 is the only issue that can remove corporal punishment.

Is it at least at an increased rate for nations with the policy? I would love to undo this mistake as soon as possible.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. 494 is only valid for nations with corporal punishment. It’s a direct reversal issue. But they don’t always come immediately, so you’re going to have to be patient.
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Quartia and Karafuto
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 128
Founded: Jul 26, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quartia and Karafuto » Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:44 am

Fauxia wrote:I’m not sure I understand what you mean. 494 is only valid for nations with corporal punishment. It’s a direct reversal issue. But they don’t always come immediately, so you’re going to have to be patient.

My question is, is issue 494 now more likely to appear than the average issue, or is it equal?
My nation - which is pretty much just a unified Korea with some extra territory - represents my real views, as does pretty much anything I say on the forums. NS stats only broadly representative. Feel free to call me Q&K, Quartia, or any other nickname. Member of LITA

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Luna Amore
Issues Moderator
 
Posts: 12651
Founded: Antiquity
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Luna Amore » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:26 am

Quartia and Karafuto wrote:
Fauxia wrote:I’m not sure I understand what you mean. 494 is only valid for nations with corporal punishment. It’s a direct reversal issue. But they don’t always come immediately, so you’re going to have to be patient.

My question is, is issue 494 now more likely to appear than the average issue, or is it equal?

The game biases towards offering issues you’ve never seen when it can, so in that sense, it should be weighted assuming you’ve never seen 494 before.

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Delta Vega IV
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 103
Founded: Jul 01, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Delta Vega IV » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:42 am

[*]Nation: Delta Vega IV
[*]Issue: #105
[*]Date: 27.01.2021

Answering issue #105 got me the result: Every product goes through extensive safety-testing by the government. Yet Authoritarianism drops, Economic Freedom rises? I'd expect the opposite.
Last edited by Delta Vega IV on Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Metivil Amoodnightil
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jan 21, 2021
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Metivil Amoodnightil » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:35 am

so i cut all foreign aid and only crime goes up and only just other bad things, why do i not at least get a tax cut or smaller government

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Golgothastan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1201
Founded: Mar 26, 2005
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Golgothastan » Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:14 am

I wish I could opt out of every issue involving nieces, brother-in-laws, and other family members of $LEADER. :roll:

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The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 14104
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:34 am

Delta Vega IV wrote:[*]Nation: Delta Vega IV
[*]Issue: #105
[*]Date: 27.01.2021

Answering issue #105 got me the result: Every product goes through extensive safety-testing by the government. Yet Authoritarianism drops, Economic Freedom rises? I'd expect the opposite.

We don't use the effect line when calculating stats.

This option balances two different economic freedoms: the freedom from higher national safety standards for the business (which fell), and the freedom of the consumer to feel safe in their own home (which rose). Because your nation already places very high restrictions on business with regards to health and safety, the increased impingements on companies was less represented in the stats than the greater freedom for consumers to feel safe.

The results are as expected.

Metivil Amoodnightil wrote:so i cut all foreign aid and only crime goes up and only just other bad things, why do i not at least get a tax cut or smaller government

When making a report, please provide the issue name/number, the option selected, the effect you think unusual, the date (if not today) and the nation (if you answered on a puppet).

We can't work with reports like this.

In general, I can say that tax is a known limitation, and refers only to income taxation. I suggest you check the OP under "Why didn't tax / unemployment / black market do what I expected it to?" for a more thorough explanation.

Golgothastan wrote:I wish I could opt out of every issue involving nieces, brother-in-laws, and other family members of $LEADER. :roll:

This thread is only for reporting suspected errors with stats, not for such requests. Furthermore, Issue Editors have no mechanism to make that happen.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Delta Vega IV
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 103
Founded: Jul 01, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Delta Vega IV » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:51 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:
Delta Vega IV wrote:[*]Nation: Delta Vega IV
[*]Issue: #105
[*]Date: 27.01.2021

Answering issue #105 got me the result: Every product goes through extensive safety-testing by the government. Yet Authoritarianism drops, Economic Freedom rises? I'd expect the opposite.

We don't use the effect line when calculating stats.

This option balances two different economic freedoms: the freedom from higher national safety standards for the business (which fell), and the freedom of the consumer to feel safe in their own home (which rose). Because your nation already places very high restrictions on business with regards to health and safety, the increased impingements on companies was less represented in the stats than the greater freedom for consumers to feel safe.

The results are as expected.

Thank you for your excellent explanation!
--Lord Ochranop, Chief Ijstragnorph of the Galactic Commonwealth Cloud Data Storage of Delta Vega IV, Sugpalopf galaxy

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Quartia and Karafuto
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 128
Founded: Jul 26, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quartia and Karafuto » Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:27 am

[*]Nation: Quartia and Karafuto
[*]Issue: #590
[*]Date: 31.01.2021

For a while, I have been trying to increase my book publishing industry. Early on, I had chosen an option to not allow cutting down trees, which has so far prevented the industry from rising above 0 no matter how pro-books I have answered. Now, I chose option #1 in issue 590, which is to loosen environmental regulations, and it didn't increase the book publishing industry even by a little. Why is this?
My nation - which is pretty much just a unified Korea with some extra territory - represents my real views, as does pretty much anything I say on the forums. NS stats only broadly representative. Feel free to call me Q&K, Quartia, or any other nickname. Member of LITA

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Noahs Second Country
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 1823
Founded: Aug 31, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Noahs Second Country » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:21 pm

Quartia and Karafuto wrote:[*]Nation: Quartia and Karafuto
[*]Issue: #590
[*]Date: 31.01.2021

For a while, I have been trying to increase my book publishing industry. Early on, I had chosen an option to not allow cutting down trees, which has so far prevented the industry from rising above 0 no matter how pro-books I have answered. Now, I chose option #1 in issue 590, which is to loosen environmental regulations, and it didn't increase the book publishing industry even by a little. Why is this?

Allowing people to trim their hedges doesn't necessarily mean people are going to start tearing down trees, turning them into paper, and writing books.

Book publishing is generally affected by things that would result in more book sales, like higher education or a more cultured society.
Westinor wrote:Who knew the face of Big Farma could be the greatest hero of the Cards Proleteriat?
Honeydewistania wrote:Such spunk and arrogance that he welcomes the brigade of hatred!
WeKnow wrote:I am not a fan of his in the slightest.
Benevolent 0 wrote:You can't seem to ever portray yourself straight.
Bormiar wrote: reckless and greedy, closer to a character issue than something to be rewarded.
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Blue Nagia
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 54
Founded: Jan 12, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Blue Nagia » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:11 pm

So my nation just got this issue today, February 8th, 2021: https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._527

I voted for option 1, to give the Ubalinders independence from Blue Nagia. As a result, Political Freedoms tanked, from 54/100 to 50, which caused the nation to fall from Average to Below Average.

Looking at the wiki, it seems like people have debated this issue before, but not along the lines of the problems I'm having with it. I feel like this is a holdover from when the issue was about making your nation a monarchy. I don't want Blue Nagia to be a monarchy; I just believe in letting former colonies have political independence if they want it, which includes allowing them to become monarchies if they so wish. At that point, what their government looks like has nothing to do with us. I would have thought that telling them no, you can't have independence, would lower political freedom!
Last edited by Blue Nagia on Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 22369
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:06 am

Blue Nagia wrote:So my nation just got this issue today, February 8th, 2021: https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._527

I voted for option 1, to give the Ubalinders independence from Blue Nagia. As a result, Political Freedoms tanked, from 54/100 to 50, which caused the nation to fall from Average to Below Average.

Looking at the wiki, it seems like people have debated this issue before, but not along the lines of the problems I'm having with it. I feel like this is a holdover from when the issue was about making your nation a monarchy. I don't want Blue Nagia to be a monarchy; I just believe in letting former colonies have political independence if they want it, which includes allowing them to become monarchies if they so wish. At that point, what their government looks like has nothing to do with us. I would have thought that telling them no, you can't have independence, would lower political freedom!



No, the stats were changed when the option was changed.

What we're looking at here isn't a people clamouring for the right to secede, it's a single individual declaring himself monarch of a territory, and everybody living there being told that they're under his absolute rule now. It's not self-determination, its arbitrarily placing citizens into an autocratic new nation that is forced out of your own nation.
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