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[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.

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Poiob
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 4
Founded: Jan 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Poiob » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:06 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:
Poiob wrote:Not to distract from the above well-articulated problem which I hope gets answered, but I'm about to go on a mini-vacation in real life (in which I don't have a computer) so I wanted to point out an issue before I forget later. :p

The rise in government size is due to the defence Ministry supporting new parents with boot camps and military schools. I'll perform a tweak on defence forces, so it should work differently in future.

Gotcha! Thanks for the help!

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:This is an ancient game that was cobbled together to promote a book. That it has grown and developed over the years from the work of volunteers while remaining entirely free to play is a testament to the strength of the community.

Even though the game is far bigger than the book now, it is still great promotion for Max Barry's books. I just finished reading Jennifer Government (minus the epilogue) over my vacation. What a ride :!:

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The Midwest Marches
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Mar 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby The Midwest Marches » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:59 am

A very helpful thread.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:28 pm

Poiob wrote:Even though the game is far bigger than the book now, it is still great promotion for Max Barry's books. I just finished reading Jennifer Government (minus the epilogue) over my vacation. What a ride :!:


I thought it was pretty good. Lexicon was really good, though.
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Ghost Land
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Posts: 1421
Founded: Feb 14, 2014
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:42 pm

Why did 125.2 lower my government size and tax rate, and substantially lower my eco-friendliness, foreign aid, business subsidization, and other stats? And why won't my political freedom get un-stuck from 11.14/100?
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Originally joined 24 April 2012.
All lives matter. Race, age, and gender are unimportant.
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This nation reflects the OPPOSITE of my views.
Pro: Donald Trump, tougher border laws, 1st/2nd Amendments, benevolent dictators, libertarianism, capitalism
Anti: Democratic Party, The Clintons, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, abortion, gun control, #MeToo, communism, racism and racial nationalism, affirmative action, SJWs

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:47 pm

Ghost Land wrote:Why did 125.2 lower my government size and tax rate, and substantially lower my eco-friendliness, foreign aid, business subsidization, and other stats? And why won't my political freedom get un-stuck from 11.14/100?


The option proposes dropping taxes. The nature of the sim is that dropping taxes drops spending. All those stats you mention are measures of government spending of one sort or another.

Your political freedoms, meanwhile, were already at a maximal position in the metrics affected by this decision. See the opening post of this thread for an explanation of how freedoms may or may not move.
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Ghost Land
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Posts: 1421
Founded: Feb 14, 2014
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:53 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Ghost Land wrote:Why did 125.2 lower my government size and tax rate, and substantially lower my eco-friendliness, foreign aid, business subsidization, and other stats? And why won't my political freedom get un-stuck from 11.14/100?


The option proposes dropping taxes. The nature of the sim is that dropping taxes drops spending. All those stats you mention are measures of government spending of one sort or another.

Your political freedoms, meanwhile, were already at a maximal position in the metrics affected by this decision. See the opening post of this thread for an explanation of how freedoms may or may not move.

Oops - missed the "lower taxes" line, so then the proper response for me in this issue would have been to dismiss it. And I knew those other stats were measures of government spending; I realised that one day recently when I found out that my government spending on the military, multiplied out, is the same as my Defense Forces stat, which also means the government of Ghost Land spends $21,000 per person on the military per year.

I know this might be a bit off-topic, but out of curiosity, what secondary stats within political freedom can still be lowered? Or will I be stuck at 11.14 forever no matter what?
Forum account/puppet of 60s Music.
Originally joined 24 April 2012.
All lives matter. Race, age, and gender are unimportant.
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Right-wing libertarian
This nation reflects the OPPOSITE of my views.
Pro: Donald Trump, tougher border laws, 1st/2nd Amendments, benevolent dictators, libertarianism, capitalism
Anti: Democratic Party, The Clintons, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, abortion, gun control, #MeToo, communism, racism and racial nationalism, affirmative action, SJWs

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Slackertown
Attaché
 
Posts: 84
Founded: Dec 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Slackertown » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:16 pm

The issue A for Effort.

I chose to offer free college for all.

My civil rights went down for some reason.

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Gudmund
Envoy
 
Posts: 284
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Gudmund » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:41 pm

Issue #257 unexpected stat changes.

Option 4 states:
    "Hah! Like that will work!" snorts @@RANDOMNAME@@, Minister of Waste Disposal and Sanitation. "They'll just come after the rest of us and destroy the government from the bottom up! No, we need to go even further - reinforce the Parliament! We'll turn @@CAPITAL@@ into an impenetrable fortress! Robot bodyguards, food tasters... no expense should be spared! We should all do our jobs through a complex network of computers so we never have to leave the safety of our offices again!"

The result of selecting option 4 states:
    "Nobody ever seems to enter or leave the armour-plated flying castle that serves as @@NAME@@'s House of Parliament."

The bolded words gave me the impression that my Scientific Advancement score would increase, definitely Information Technology in the least. Robot bodyguards in humanoid form must be far more advanced to be of actual use. They must be combat capable, and have advanced AI to understand the situation unless the robot bodyguards aren't humanoid (they might be small tanks or drones for all I know). What about the government backed 'complex network of computers'? It actually decreased the Information Technology stat for some reason? What about the literal armour-plated flying castle? Surely that would increase SA?
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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:48 am

Ghost Land wrote:I know this might be a bit off-topic, but out of curiosity, what secondary stats within political freedom can still be lowered?


We're not permitted to share the names of the secondary metrics or how they work, but some players have intuited them. Best to discuss such things outside of the thread though, and ideally not in this forum.

Or will I be stuck at 11.14 forever no matter what?


No, it is possible for you to get more restrictive political freedoms.
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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:51 am

Slackertown wrote:The issue A for Effort.

I chose to offer free college for all.

My civil rights went down for some reason.


That's correct.The relevant part is here:

Why not just make going to college mandatory for every Slackertownian?


Mandatory education is a breach of the freedoms of the young, even if it could be seen as a beneficial thing. Mandatory anything tends to be considered anti-freedom by this sim, and civil rights in this game are generally defined as relating to the freedoms that government allows to its people.
editors like linguistic ambiguity more than most people

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:54 am

Gudmund wrote:Issue #257 unexpected stat changes.

Option 4 states:
    "Hah! Like that will work!" snorts @@RANDOMNAME@@, Minister of Waste Disposal and Sanitation. "They'll just come after the rest of us and destroy the government from the bottom up! No, we need to go even further - reinforce the Parliament! We'll turn @@CAPITAL@@ into an impenetrable fortress! Robot bodyguards, food tasters... no expense should be spared! We should all do our jobs through a complex network of computers so we never have to leave the safety of our offices again!"

The result of selecting option 4 states:
    "Nobody ever seems to enter or leave the armour-plated flying castle that serves as @@NAME@@'s House of Parliament."

The bolded words gave me the impression that my Scientific Advancement score would increase, definitely Information Technology in the least. Robot bodyguards in humanoid form must be far more advanced to be of actual use. They must be combat capable, and have advanced AI to understand the situation unless the robot bodyguards aren't humanoid (they might be small tanks or drones for all I know). What about the government backed 'complex network of computers'? It actually decreased the Information Technology stat for some reason? What about the literal armour-plated flying castle? Surely that would increase SA?


Fair enough, changes made.

Existing drops in the industry were knock on effects from other industry increases.
Now boosts IT and tech levels a little, is more expensive than before, and requires computers.
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Verdant Haven
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 1085
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Verdant Haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:45 am

Issue 146 - "Evolution: Truth or Witchcraft?"

Issue text: Religious and scientific leaders have clashed recently over the teaching of evolution in public schools.

Option selected: Option 1 (agree with scientist to ban the teaching of religion, and exclusively require teaching of evolution and other scientifically-backed information)

Unexpected stat change: Social Conservativism up by .35

Query - I totally dig the other effects of this choice - civil rights down, authoritarianism up, but I was extremely surprised to see Social Conservativism increase when I basically just kicked religion in the teeth again. Is SC just a secondary stat and this is a knock-on affect from the Authoritarianism increase, or is it actually programmed directly here? While I realize my Religiousness stat can't get much lower, it still feels a bit like that should outweigh the other things here, especially given that the SC stat is named after two American politicians whose personal fetishization of Jesus worship is practically legendary (suggesting that the American twist of blending conservative social policy with religious dogma is what this stat is based on).
- Verdant Haven

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Ghost Land
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Posts: 1421
Founded: Feb 14, 2014
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:09 pm

Verdant Haven wrote:Issue 146 - "Evolution: Truth or Witchcraft?"

Issue text: Religious and scientific leaders have clashed recently over the teaching of evolution in public schools.

Option selected: Option 1 (agree with scientist to ban the teaching of religion, and exclusively require teaching of evolution and other scientifically-backed information)

Unexpected stat change: Social Conservativism up by .35

Query - I totally dig the other effects of this choice - civil rights down, authoritarianism up, but I was extremely surprised to see Social Conservativism increase when I basically just kicked religion in the teeth again. Is SC just a secondary stat and this is a knock-on affect from the Authoritarianism increase, or is it actually programmed directly here? While I realize my Religiousness stat can't get much lower, it still feels a bit like that should outweigh the other things here, especially given that the SC stat is named after two American politicians whose personal fetishization of Jesus worship is practically legendary (suggesting that the American twist of blending conservative social policy with religious dogma is what this stat is based on).

Social Conservatism, from my understanding, is just a slightly scale-adjusted version of (100-Civil Rights); if your civil rights are at 63, your social conservatism will be around 37, give or take.
Forum account/puppet of 60s Music.
Originally joined 24 April 2012.
All lives matter. Race, age, and gender are unimportant.
Me OOC
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Right-wing libertarian
This nation reflects the OPPOSITE of my views.
Pro: Donald Trump, tougher border laws, 1st/2nd Amendments, benevolent dictators, libertarianism, capitalism
Anti: Democratic Party, The Clintons, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, abortion, gun control, #MeToo, communism, racism and racial nationalism, affirmative action, SJWs

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:51 pm

That's more or less right. In the past I've proposed it should be renamed Social Control.
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Verdant Haven
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 1085
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Verdant Haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:58 pm

Ghost Land wrote:
Verdant Haven wrote:-blah blah blah-

Social Conservatism, from my understanding, is just a slightly scale-adjusted version of (100-Civil Rights); if your civil rights are at 63, your social conservatism will be around 37, give or take.



Candlewhisper Archive wrote:That's more or less right. In the past I've proposed it should be renamed Social Control.


Ahh, interesting. Ok, thanks you for the explanation! The "Bush-Santorum" aspect of its descriptor definitely has me barking up the wrong tree with its intention. @CWA - I definitely agree with that name for it, given this description.
- Verdant Haven

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Refuge Isle
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Posts: 1069
Founded: Dec 14, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Refuge Isle » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:39 pm

Heyo friendos

I don't know if it's intentional or a bug, but option 3a in issue 1023 doesn't seem to have any effects?

Image

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:43 am

Refuge Isle wrote:Heyo friendos

I don't know if it's intentional or a bug, but option 3a in issue 1023 doesn't seem to have any effects?



The FAQ in the first post of this thread covers this. See under: "Why did this stat change by X%? That's too much / too little!"
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The Chuck
Minister
 
Posts: 3287
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Issue #902

Postby The Chuck » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:06 pm

The name of the nation that had this effect: The Chuck
The day that this effect was encountered: March 3rd, 2019
The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue: "Killer App" Issue #902

I selected choice 3A (according to https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._902) to legalize contract killings and it nullified my gun ownership policy. I am a bit confused by how this nullifies compulsory gun ownership.
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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:10 pm

The Chuck wrote:The name of the nation that had this effect: The Chuck
The day that this effect was encountered: March 3rd, 2019
The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue: "Killer App" Issue #902

I selected choice 3A (according to https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._902) to legalize contract killings and it nullified my gun ownership policy. I am a bit confused by how this nullifies compulsory gun ownership.


Thanks, mild coding error. Now fixed.
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The Chuck
Minister
 
Posts: 3287
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby The Chuck » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:17 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
The Chuck wrote:The name of the nation that had this effect: The Chuck
The day that this effect was encountered: March 3rd, 2019
The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue: "Killer App" Issue #902

I selected choice 3A (according to https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._902) to legalize contract killings and it nullified my gun ownership policy. I am a bit confused by how this nullifies compulsory gun ownership.


Thanks, mild coding error. Now fixed.


No problem, thanks for looking into it :D
We. Will. Not. Comply.
In-Character Advertisement Space:
The Chuck wholly endorses Wolf Armaments, Lauzanexport CDT, and
Silverport Dockyards Ltd.

"Keep your guns... and buy more guns!" - Kitty Werthmann, Austrian Nazi Regime Survivor
Roof Korea, Best Korea. Hippity Hoppity, 내 재산에서 꺼져.
Pro: Liberty/Freedoms of the Individual, Unrestricted firearms ownership
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Verdant Haven
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 1085
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Verdant Haven » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:09 pm

I have a curious one from issue 464 (The @@ANIMAL@@ Republic Shall Rise Again?). This issue is the Confederate flag stand-in issue.

Option one resulted in a drop in civil rights, which feels out of place, since it has nothing to do with civil rights.

The option text for option 1:
“It’s unconscionable that politicians still defend flying such a repulsive racist symbol on government property!” declares Paris Martinez, a civil rights activist sporting colorful Tasmanian tribal attire - despite recent public revelations that she in fact has no Tasmanian ancestry whatsoever. “That flag has only ever been used to heighten racial divisions in this country; we must ban the display of the Thylacine Republic flag in any official capacity!”


The effect text:
Government buildings are being cleansed of anything that might have racist connotations.


Both the option and the effect are very clear that this only applies to official government practice and official government property. It doesn't have any impact on the rights of citizens - nor even politicians, who never had the right to arbitrarily use foreign symbols in the face of officially dictated letterhead, national flags on buildings, agency seals, etc. What civil rights are at play here?
- Verdant Haven

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23002
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:09 pm

Verdant Haven wrote:I have a curious one from issue 464 (The @@ANIMAL@@ Republic Shall Rise Again?). This issue is the Confederate flag stand-in issue.

Option one resulted in a drop in civil rights, which feels out of place, since it has nothing to do with civil rights.

The option text for option 1:
“It’s unconscionable that politicians still defend flying such a repulsive racist symbol on government property!” declares Paris Martinez, a civil rights activist sporting colorful Tasmanian tribal attire - despite recent public revelations that she in fact has no Tasmanian ancestry whatsoever. “That flag has only ever been used to heighten racial divisions in this country; we must ban the display of the Thylacine Republic flag in any official capacity!”


The effect text:
Government buildings are being cleansed of anything that might have racist connotations.


Both the option and the effect are very clear that this only applies to official government practice and official government property. It doesn't have any impact on the rights of citizens - nor even politicians, who never had the right to arbitrarily use foreign symbols in the face of officially dictated letterhead, national flags on buildings, agency seals, etc. What civil rights are at play here?


Good points.

Fixed.
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Verdant Haven
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 1085
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Verdant Haven » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:16 pm

Thanks a bunch, CWA!
- Verdant Haven

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Gretebisland
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Feb 19, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Gretebisland » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:28 am

#136 option 3
Banning Abortion increased Civil Rights by 2.5%! Why?(I like this but doesn't it decrease it?)

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Leutria
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1697
Founded: Oct 29, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Leutria » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:12 am

Gretebisland wrote:#136 option 3
Banning Abortion increased Civil Rights by 2.5%! Why?(I like this but doesn't it decrease it?)


This has been answered a couple times. Let me quote the last time one of the editors answered it for you :)

The Free Joy State wrote:Yes. Awhile back, the team (aware of the deep and personal feelings around the sensitive issue of abortion) took the -- perhaps controversial decision -- to (generally speaking, allowing for individual stats) programme a civil rights rise for both banning and allowing abortion.

Due to the strength of emotion it raises, we felt it inappropriate to come down on either side of this debate.

EDIT: It's worth saying that, although your civil rights appear to have risen considerably, in raw numbers, the rise is comparatively small (from 24.17 to 25.75). If you have not yet done so, I suggest you turn on "Show More Stats", which shows a more detailed breakdown of your results. The percentage numbers can make things look larger than they are.

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