[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[Merni]

Issue 721 option 2 affected Weather (negatively) for some reason.

[Ransium]

Issue 721 option 2 affected Weather (negatively) for some reason.

Weather is a funny census category. If we are being realistic, why just about any issue, except maybe something about cloud seeding, should effect the weather is a mystery to me. Anyway, the answer here, as it always is with weather, is secondary effects. On a side note, the weather algorithm is probably the easiest in the game to figure out and consistently max/min, so if you really care, start paying attention to what other categories consistently move and in which direction.

[Ransium]

i just answered #243: A Question Of Faith; taking the option to decline to name an official faith and my inclusiveness went up almost 30 points.
It makes perfect sense that it would go up for nations that enforce religious policies; but it seems like a big change for a nation like mine, which has always taken a hands off approach with religion.

Fauxia is on the correct track. Some stats are on something like a logarithmic scale. So if the code for that stat moves from 2->4, the movement for that stat players see might be 50->100. However, a movement of 22->24 may only be a 10 point increase. Hope that helps.

[Tyronian Socialist State]

Issue #75, encountered on 05/10/2017, issue most notably destroyed the income of my nation as well as other stats.

Hay guys Just a Quick question, I think something is a little wrong with issue 75 "Cutting Off Sex Offenders?" as apparently choosing the last option of “Everyone knows re-education is a waste of money, we shouldn’t go soft on these crooks!” says Director of Farming Collectives Mamiko Goldsmith. “Simply place all rapists and criminals in Tyronian Socialist State into forced labor under the management of our directorate to serve out their sentences. When we’re through with them, they won’t even think of jaywalking, much less harming another person. We get free labor, and these crooks get put straight. Everybody benefits... well, except the crooks.” leads to a ~41% decrease in the Average income of the poor and that same increase for income of the rich, and a bunch of ridiculous things in general (Lost the page so cant be more specific sorry). Not sure if I'm just complaining and being a little butt hurt that years of social policies were for nothing, but I find it a little strange that my notably almost crime free nation has a fall in income this large for such a minor thing (Also seeing as employment increased). This isse

[Aclion]

i just answered #243: A Question Of Faith; taking the option to decline to name an official faith and my inclusiveness went up almost 30 points.
It makes perfect sense that it would go up for nations that enforce religious policies; but it seems like a big change for a nation like mine, which has always taken a hands off approach with religion.

Fauxia is on the correct track. Some stats are on something like a logarithmic scale. So if the code for that stat moves from 2->4, the movement for that stat players see might be 50->100. However, a movement of 22->24 may only be a 10 point increase. Hope that helps.

I see, not unlike getting thrown off by the percentage changes then. Thank you.

[Azurius]

Issue #75, encountered on 05/10/2017, issue most notably destroyed the income of my nation as well as other stats.

Hay guys Just a Quick question, I think something is a little wrong with issue 75 "Cutting Off Sex Offenders?" as apparently choosing the last option of “Everyone knows re-education is a waste of money, we shouldn’t go soft on these crooks!” says Director of Farming Collectives Mamiko Goldsmith. “Simply place all rapists and criminals in Tyronian Socialist State into forced labor under the management of our directorate to serve out their sentences. When we’re through with them, they won’t even think of jaywalking, much less harming another person. We get free labor, and these crooks get put straight. Everybody benefits... well, except the crooks.” leads to a ~41% decrease in the Average income of the poor and that same increase for income of the rich, and a bunch of ridiculous things in general (Lost the page so cant be more specific sorry). Not sure if I'm just complaining and being a little butt hurt that years of social policies were for nothing, but I find it a little strange that my notably almost crime free nation has a fall in income this large for such a minor thing (Also seeing as employment increased). This isse

While a bit extreme I found the stats itself overall quite reasonable for NS standards. What totally baffled me however is that I now have freaking slavery LMAO. What I did was gulag them(also what I wanted to do), not completely take away all their rights as citizens and enslave them for further sell or something, but okay whatever I guess... Lol. It´s funny nonetheless.

Anyway... Maybe this could be fixed. As gulag or also private prisoning in my eyes, while harsh, don´t equal actual slavery. Other then that, as I know NS you will sooner or later probably get an issue to remove slavery again. This would most likely also remove the insane wealthgaps caused by it. For reference and why I called the effects itself reasonable, what I got from that option basicaly was:

A huge wealthgap increase, hit it from 1,7 all up to 4,3. A big boost to agriculture and hence also a reasonable boost of average income. A hit to civil rights as you could expect, though that was smaller then expected in my case. Other then that some loss of cherfullness, niceness but also some small rise of insurance. Pretty much any other effects were secondary and caused by other stats rising or falling. Overall I would deem that reasonable.

My personal problem is the extreme wealthgap increase, then again if you allow slavery that kind of thing is to be expected, bringing me to my next, main problem: The fact that I wanted to gulag prisoners with that option, and not enslave them lol.

[Roman-Britannic Empire]

I got one where I could ban slaves and it decrease my economic freedom... BUT my civil rights were the same. Double ouch! Make it so that freeing slaves always gives at least 3 civil rights.

[Glorious Country]

This country. Issue 609.

By picking option 2 (The one that literally bans music and drugs) raised my civil rights from 2.93 to 5.29 (an 80% increase), while I could see it raising Youth Rebelliousness (it literally says that they turn to crime), I want to know how that has any effect on my civil rights. Crime is still illegal in my country, the only thing I did was basically ban drugs and music. How does that raise my civil rights, and drop my authoritarianism?

Cheers in advance. I guess.

[Ransium]

This country. Issue 609.

By picking option 2 (The one that literally bans music and drugs) raised my civil rights from 2.93 to 5.29 (an 80% increase), while I could see it raising Youth Rebelliousness (it literally says that they turn to crime), I want to know how that has any effect on my civil rights. Crime is still illegal in my country, the only thing I did was basically ban drugs and music. How does that raise my civil rights, and drop my authoritarianism?

Cheers in advance. I guess.

The problem is you went from the very restrictive state of drugging your populace to a fairly restrictive state of banning most drugs. The previous state was seen by the model as more restrictive than the current. It's not the first time I've seen this complaint for this issue, and I might consider writing a fix soon. For now, either put drugs back in the water or keep restricting them further, either will get you back to where you were.

[Ransium]

I got one where I could ban slaves and it decrease my economic freedom... BUT my civil rights were the same. Double ouch! Make it so that freeing slaves always gives at least 3 civil rights.

For most nations with slavery it would, but you had previously picked several options that had increased personal freedom past what would be expected for a nation with slaves. I'll think about a stat reggigering.

[Roman-Britannic Empire]

For most nations with slavery it would, but you had previously picked several options that had increased personal freedom past what would be expected for a nation with slaves. I'll think about a stat reggigering.

That's not fair. You should set a minimum stat change for the big three freedoms on certain issues so that players can get what they want reliably. I'm told "go figure it out yourself, that's the run of it" well that might be fine for some people, but others have a target. I finally found some issues that give me what I want, but the stupid thing is that even then isn't not reliable.

[Roman-Britannic Empire]

Another complaint. "A sticky situation" where I chose option 3 to put trash cans around lowered civil rights by 0.8. I wouldn't complain, if it wasn't for the fact that freeing slaves (which should raise civil rights by at 3-10 depending on the nation but it should be floored at 3) did squat for my civil rights.

Put a floor on the diminishing returns for repeat issues. There are some... things that don't make sense for the real world, so we might as well have the issue be fun instead of realistic.

[Trotterdam]

Civil rights are on a scale of 0-100. If nothing else, you can't increase them once they hit 100.

[Ransium]

For most nations with slavery it would, but you had previously picked several options that had increased personal freedom past what would be expected for a nation with slaves. I'll think about a stat reggigering.

That's not fair. You should set a minimum stat change for the big three freedoms on certain issues so that players can get what they want reliably. I'm told "go figure it out yourself, that's the run of it" well that might be fine for some people, but others have a target. I finally found some issues that give me what I want, but the stupid thing is that even then isn't not reliable.

I said I was thinking over how to change the stats, please be patient, it's too big of a change for me to do unilaterally. Please also keep in mind we're a team of volunteers doing the best we can.

Another complaint. "A sticky situation" where I chose option 3 to put trash cans around lowered civil rights by 0.8. I wouldn't complain, if it wasn't for the fact that freeing slaves (which should raise civil rights by at 3-10 depending on the nation but it should be floored at 3) did squat for my civil rights.

Put a floor on the diminishing returns for repeat issues. There are some... things that don't make sense for the real world, so we might as well have the issue be fun instead of realistic.

I get it. Different freedoms/code are involved.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

In "Ornery Overcrowding Problem" I just have chose to build high buildings to save more land for the nature; but Eco-Friendliness & Environmental Beauty decreased.

Eco-Friendliness
Dolphin Recycling Awareness Index 9,852.18 → 9,831.45 0.21%

Environmental Beauty
Pounds Of Wildlife Per Square Mile 2,010.62 → 1,990.74 0.99%

Interesting, I saw option 1 there as an anti-environmental option, and it has a modest environment drop coded to it, as you have reported.

Making high-rise buildings inherently eco-friendly is possible, but I think that this option doesn't emphasise that this is a goal, other than talking about "wasting little land". Bear in mind here that the option is providing a solution to overcrowding, so you are moving to a position of having more buildings and construction, and with high rises that involves a lot of industrial activity, and a lot of steel and concrete.

A 2003 Hong Kong study showed that the higher a building rises, the higher its energy consumption per square metre, with each additional storey adding 3 kwh/m². It's theorised that part of this is due to higher winds having a cooling effect, and the energy cost of needing to move people and mass against gravity.

Having said that, other studies show no difference in ecological impact between low and high rise usage. It's essentially an area where the jury is out.

Ultimately, I think it is justifiable, as the stats are relative to dismissal, and the dismiss position is to build NO new houses, and to leave people cramped. So any construction, high or low rise, is ecologically unfriendly. That in mind, I'll add equal environmental damage to the second option.

I'll tell you what may be worth doing though - perhaps you or someone else could draft a follow up issue for those who pick option 1, asking if the towers should be constructed as "green high rises" with all the solar powering, heat preservation techniques and natural air circulation methods that would entail, albeit at cost of increases to property rises. That'd be a great way to allow those who pick this option to be green to then go on to be green.

[Ransium]

Okay, the slave issue is now coded more in the way you wanted.

[Abyrvalg]

In "Sky High" I legalized drugs - and that increased Intelligence?!

Note that it's a change of .26 quips per hour, which considering the max in the world is 642, is not a lot. Generally, with minor changes like this the answer is always going to be the same, secondary effects of the model. In this case generally, when you increase civil rights your population's intelligence will increase a bit.

Then I think the model is wrong. "Civil rights" here is not a real factor, it's a synthetic (statistically derived) number.
Consider a simple example: you build more hospitals, serve better healthcare, and statistically the number of patients increases. So your model says health of the population decreases, longevity decreases.
That is wrong, you know.

In the case I mentioned, less "Civil rights" actually means there are less drug addicts, and that MUST mean increase in the intelligence.
Not a decrease.
Not a very small decrease either.
Significant increase, that's a real fact.

[Ransium]

Note that it's a change of .26 quips per hour, which considering the max in the world is 642, is not a lot. Generally, with minor changes like this the answer is always going to be the same, secondary effects of the model. In this case generally, when you increase civil rights your population's intelligence will increase a bit.

Then I think the model is wrong. "Civil rights" here is not a real factor, it's a synthetic (statistically derived) number.
Consider a simple example: you build more hospitals, serve better healthcare, and statistically the number of patients increases. So your model says health of the population decreases, longevity decreases.
That is wrong, you know.

In the case I mentioned, less "Civil rights" actually means there are less drug addicts, and that MUST mean increase in the intelligence.
Not a decrease.
Not a very small decrease either.
Significant increase, that's a real fact.

IEs like me don't control the model, only some inputs of issue choices. These sort of queries need to go to technical. [violet] is considering a bunch of model changes right now, feel free to politely suggest decoupling drug rights with intelligence.

[Tyronian Socialist State]

Issue #75, encountered on 05/10/2017, issue most notably destroyed the income of my nation as well as other stats.

Hay guys Just a Quick question, I think something is a little wrong with issue 75 "Cutting Off Sex Offenders?" as apparently choosing the last option of “Everyone knows re-education is a waste of money, we shouldn’t go soft on these crooks!” says Director of Farming Collectives Mamiko Goldsmith. “Simply place all rapists and criminals in Tyronian Socialist State into forced labor under the management of our directorate to serve out their sentences. When we’re through with them, they won’t even think of jaywalking, much less harming another person. We get free labor, and these crooks get put straight. Everybody benefits... well, except the crooks.” leads to a ~41% decrease in the Average income of the poor and that same increase for income of the rich, and a bunch of ridiculous things in general (Lost the page so cant be more specific sorry). Not sure if I'm just complaining and being a little butt hurt that years of social policies were for nothing, but I find it a little strange that my notably almost crime free nation has a fall in income this large for such a minor thing (Also seeing as employment increased). This isse

Sorry to bump this, but It is reasonable for prison labour to destroy my nations income of the poor?

[Drasnia]

Issue #75, encountered on 05/10/2017, issue most notably destroyed the income of my nation as well as other stats.

Hay guys Just a Quick question, I think something is a little wrong with issue 75 "Cutting Off Sex Offenders?" as apparently choosing the last option of “Everyone knows re-education is a waste of money, we shouldn’t go soft on these crooks!” says Director of Farming Collectives Mamiko Goldsmith. “Simply place all rapists and criminals in Tyronian Socialist State into forced labor under the management of our directorate to serve out their sentences. When we’re through with them, they won’t even think of jaywalking, much less harming another person. We get free labor, and these crooks get put straight. Everybody benefits... well, except the crooks.” leads to a ~41% decrease in the Average income of the poor and that same increase for income of the rich, and a bunch of ridiculous things in general (Lost the page so cant be more specific sorry). Not sure if I'm just complaining and being a little butt hurt that years of social policies were for nothing, but I find it a little strange that my notably almost crime free nation has a fall in income this large for such a minor thing (Also seeing as employment increased). This isse

Sorry to bump this, but It is reasonable for prison labour to destroy my nations income of the poor?

Considering you normally have high civil rights, that kind of policy change - wherein anybody who commits a crime can potentially be sent to labor camps - is going to have drastic effects on your nation. Now the people who can't buy their way to innocence (aka the poor) are forced into slavery to pay for their crimes. Of course you're going to see a drop in poor incomes, and the fat cats get free labor so they have lower costs thus higher profits.

I'm not seeing any problem at all with the issue effects myself.

[Tyronian Socialist State]

Sorry to bump this, but It is reasonable for prison labour to destroy my nations income of the poor?

Considering you normally have high civil rights, that kind of policy change - wherein anybody who commits a crime can potentially be sent to labor camps - is going to have drastic effects on your nation. Now the people who can't buy their way to innocence (aka the poor) are forced into slavery to pay for their crimes. Of course you're going to see a drop in poor incomes, and the fat cats get free labor so they have lower costs thus higher profits.

I'm not seeing any problem at all with the issue effects myself.

Whilst I agree that there would be a small decrease, I believe that 41% of their total income diapering is extremely harsh, especially with nation that has little to no crime (At this current time our crime rating is 171,539th out 171,728. It also states that "forced labor under the management of our directorate to serve out their sentences" Meaning that they do stop being labourers at the end of their sentences and seeing as there was no mention of increased sentences It might just mean 2 weeks on some farm for stealing a wallet (as it states "says Director of Farming Collectives Mamiko Goldsmith" heavily implying that they would be working on a farm for the sentence). Also Private enterprise in my nation is fully illegal meaning that it would be very Illogical for the rich to become richer. (sorry I'm going on about this but, it was 4 years of real time issues about social policy and labour that lead to a high income of the poor and for most of it to diaper because a hand full of rapists got send to work for their sentence doesn't seem right)

[Ahma]

The Issue
A minor domestic emergency recently left you searching for a call-out plumber, an electrician and a handyman able to rehang a chandelier. Though the sorry incident is now sorted, you’ve been left aware of how hard it is to find good tradespeople these days. Your Education Minister tells you that this is because the majority of high school graduates are enrolling in university programs, which is leaving a major skilled labor shortage in the trades industries. There are ample artists, architects and astrophysicists, but a poor proportion of plumbers, painters and plasterers.


The Debate
“Sometimes, perhaps it is best to let the ocean currents move you, rather than trying to turn back a rising tide,” suggests Taiqiquan practitioner Mike Perkins, working through a series of graceful circular movements. “Your nation’s economy is changing, and shifting away from manual work. This is natural, and you should move with, never against. Imagine: as graduates become unemployed, the market self-adjusts, and the economy flows back towards its former shape. As pipes become blocked, supply and demand mismatch results in the free market rising to fill a gap. Energy flows through the system like water, and problems resolve themselves.”

End result Employment ↓53.6% and Economic Freedom ↑165%.
As can be seen here, the effect on Employment was excessive compared to everything the nation has ever seen before: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ahm ... ensusid=56
In exhange Economic Freedom skyrocketed, which felt exaggerated as well. https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ahm ... ensusid=48
Especially notifying that effects on Industries and Economic Output was minimal. (And the rational mind thinks only about that 1 billion people became unemployed and economy grows.)

I admit that some of the problems I have with the effects may stem from reading comprehension concerning the answer option. (Should I make a post proposing rewrite?) The wording gave me the impression that the end result would be complete opposite. - Instead of forcibly trying to bring back manual labour in the nation, the nation simply embraces its high tech, high education future. And, as Ahma's economy already relied on high Culture, IT and Book Publishing (all other sectors being around zero) I felt that this option would simply boost white/pink collar sectors even further. And that maybe the non-existant manual labour industries might grow as well, as due to supply and demand, poorest paying jobs should be paid more that some people would bother to do those as well (instead that all go to university and end up astrophysicists.)

[Ransium]

The Issue
A minor domestic emergency recently left you searching for a call-out plumber, an electrician and a handyman able to rehang a chandelier. Though the sorry incident is now sorted, you’ve been left aware of how hard it is to find good tradespeople these days. Your Education Minister tells you that this is because the majority of high school graduates are enrolling in university programs, which is leaving a major skilled labor shortage in the trades industries. There are ample artists, architects and astrophysicists, but a poor proportion of plumbers, painters and plasterers.


The Debate
“Sometimes, perhaps it is best to let the ocean currents move you, rather than trying to turn back a rising tide,” suggests Taiqiquan practitioner Mike Perkins, working through a series of graceful circular movements. “Your nation’s economy is changing, and shifting away from manual work. This is natural, and you should move with, never against. Imagine: as graduates become unemployed, the market self-adjusts, and the economy flows back towards its former shape. As pipes become blocked, supply and demand mismatch results in the free market rising to fill a gap. Energy flows through the system like water, and problems resolve themselves.”

(Image)

End result Employment ↓53.6% and Economic Freedom ↑165%.
As can be seen here, the effect on Employment was excessive compared to everything the nation has ever seen before: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ahm ... ensusid=56
In exhange Economic Freedom skyrocketed, which felt exaggerated as well. https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ahm ... ensusid=48
Especially notifying that effects on Industries and Economic Output was minimal. (And the rational mind thinks only about that 1 billion people became unemployed and economy grows.)

I admit that some of the problems I have with the effects may stem from reading comprehension concerning the answer option. (Should I make a post proposing rewrite?) The wording gave me the impression that the end result would be complete opposite. - Instead of forcibly trying to bring back manual labour in the nation, the nation simply embraces its high tech, high education future. And, as Ahma's economy already relied on high Culture, IT and Book Publishing (all other sectors being around zero) I felt that this option would simply boost white/pink collar sectors even further. And that maybe the non-existant manual labour industries might grow as well, as due to supply and demand, poorest paying jobs should be paid more that some people would bother to do those as well (instead that all go to university and end up astrophysicists.)

You went from communist to capitalist, it's probably the most dramatic change a country's economy could experience.

[Socialist Federative Slavia]

Considering you normally have high civil rights, that kind of policy change - wherein anybody who commits a crime can potentially be sent to labor camps - is going to have drastic effects on your nation. Now the people who can't buy their way to innocence (aka the poor) are forced into slavery to pay for their crimes. Of course you're going to see a drop in poor incomes, and the fat cats get free labor so they have lower costs thus higher profits.

I'm not seeing any problem at all with the issue effects myself.

Whilst I agree that there would be a small decrease, I believe that 41% of their total income diapering is extremely harsh, especially with nation that has little to no crime (At this current time our crime rating is 171,539th out 171,728. It also states that "forced labor under the management of our directorate to serve out their sentences" Meaning that they do stop being labourers at the end of their sentences and seeing as there was no mention of increased sentences It might just mean 2 weeks on some farm for stealing a wallet (as it states "says Director of Farming Collectives Mamiko Goldsmith" heavily implying that they would be working on a farm for the sentence). Also Private enterprise in my nation is fully illegal meaning that it would be very Illogical for the rich to become richer. (sorry I'm going on about this but, it was 4 years of real time issues about social policy and labour that lead to a high income of the poor and for most of it to diaper because a hand full of rapists got send to work for their sentence doesn't seem right)

Yes, my thoughts exactly, people need to learn the difference between chattel slavery and corrective labor.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I think "people" do know the difference.

Reasonable though, to suggest that we need to teach the simulation the difference. We're discussing it backstage at present.