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[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 23652
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri May 11, 2018 1:31 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Today, I want to talk about the relationship between feudalism and emigration.

When looking at my list, I was surprised to find that #605 1 is one of the only two options in the game that removes No Emigration, despite the issue actually saying nothing about that, the option's primary purpose being to remove Feudalism.

On closer inspection, I found that #61 1, the sole option to give the Feudalism policy, also gives No Emigration. So, this gives the impression that the Feudalism is interpreted as automatically implying No Emigration, and so the latter is gained and lost with the former even when the issue doesn't explicitly talk about it.

However, there are two problems with this.

First, I disagree that Feudalism should actually imply No Emigration. Yes, serfs had little freedom of movement, but a feudal society doesn't consist only of serfs. Nobles and yeomen were also important parts of medieval society, and they generally had somewhat more mobility. Even serfs often had some sort of recourse, though it tended to involve paying their lord through the nose for the priviledge of leaving his service.

Second, the other options which remove Feudalism (#710 4, #894 3, #940 5) don't affect No Emigration, so this policy, whether I agree with it or not, is not applied consistently.
Hello?


61.1 doesn't ban emigration because it institutes feudalism, it bans emigration because the text implies it. Specifically:

the land to which they would be bound for life.


Discussion of this issue led to an agreement amongst the team that being bound to the land for life means that peasants would not be allowed to emigrate, nor indeed move around the country. Different rules would apply for nobles, of course, but we decided that most people would be peasants, and that the national policies would be mostly those that applied to them.
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Roosevetania
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Posts: 667
Founded: Jan 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Roosevetania » Fri May 11, 2018 5:18 am

I encountered Issue #613, Nude Day, Nude Awakening. I chose the third option that said there shouldn't be censorship on the Internet, then my Authoritarianism went up and my Civil Rights went down. This doesn't seem to make sense to me.
White Male, Libertarian Socialist, Anti-Fascist, United Methodist, American Deep South
Pro: socialism, anarchism (ideally), antifa, radical democracy, universal liberation, gun rights, open borders, revolution
Anti: capitalism, the state, authoritarianism, capitalist wars, capital punishment, Israel, generally most bourgeois institutions

Yang Jianguo, Member of the Revolutionary People's Party in the NS Parliament

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Spam Spam Spam
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Posts: 111
Founded: Jan 20, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Spam Spam Spam » Fri May 11, 2018 7:21 am

This isn't strictly an issue problem, but this doesn't make any sense to me.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri May 11, 2018 7:57 am

Roosevetania wrote:I encountered Issue #613, Nude Day, Nude Awakening. I chose the third option that said there shouldn't be censorship on the Internet, then my Authoritarianism went up and my Civil Rights went down. This doesn't seem to make sense to me.


Pretty much explicitly covered in the first post FAQ.
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri May 11, 2018 8:00 am

Spam Spam Spam wrote:This isn't strictly an issue problem, but this doesn't make any sense to me.


You run a space program without computers. Not impossible, you know.

As is oft quoted, Apollo 11's was landed on the moon with a computer that had 1300 times less processing power than an IPhone5.

The earliest spaceflights didn't involve computers at all.

Tell ya what though, if anyone writes an issue for nations that have spaceflight but no computers, that would be kind of cool, and applicable for a whole 1% of all NS nations.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Fri May 11, 2018 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ab Humanitatis Scientiam
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Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Ab Humanitatis Scientiam » Fri May 11, 2018 10:38 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:...
The earliest spaceflights didn't involve computers at all.
...


I understand that, at least in the United States (not exclusively, of course, but simply the history I'm most familiar with), women brought into early spaceflight efforts for their math skills were often referred to as "computers." Ostensibly because someone who computes is a "computer," but perhaps more cynically (that is to say, realistically), admitting a need for women, or that women could be mathematicians and engineers (never mind flipping astronauts), was unpopular at the time. 'Course, they were all using slide rules, which certainly are "computers" in the device (if analog) sense too.

The "No Computers/Space Flight" combo contains some really interesting issue potential, actually.
Last edited by Ab Humanitatis Scientiam on Fri May 11, 2018 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri May 11, 2018 10:41 am

Now we're closing on 1000 issues, I think it's totally fine to have issues that are only applicable to tiny proportions of the player base, like ones that combine weird policy combinations.

Y'know what though, I'm cluttering the wrong thread. We should discuss this further in the Writer's Block.
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He Qixin
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Founded: Aug 28, 2017
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Postby He Qixin » Sat May 12, 2018 1:06 am

52.2 didn't enact the prudism policy on this nation

https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._52
jacknjellify wrote:Watch Battle For Dream Island or be eliminated.

According to this index, this civilization is:
Tier: 8
Level: 5
Type: 6
A 9 civilization because I lean more towards it.

This nation is always used to post in the forums unless the forum is the WA, for which I use Triangle and Square, a WA member, to post.

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The Free Joy State
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Founded: Jan 05, 2014
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat May 12, 2018 1:23 am

He Qixin wrote:52.2 didn't enact the prudism policy on this nation

https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._52


I can't see where you've answered it recently, but this option -- while it increases restrictions of nudity in your nation -- does not automatically increase prudishness to the point where you receive this policy.

Even after answering the issue (which I can see you did at some point in time, but I can't go through weeks of your results to find out when), your nation does not have enough of a restrictive attitude towards nudity to receive this policy.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat May 12, 2018 1:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

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He Qixin
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Founded: Aug 28, 2017
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Postby He Qixin » Sat May 12, 2018 3:50 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
He Qixin wrote:52.2 didn't enact the prudism policy on this nation

https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._52


I can't see where you've answered it recently, but this option -- while it increases restrictions of nudity in your nation -- does not automatically increase prudishness to the point where you receive this policy.

Even after answering the issue (which I can see you did at some point in time, but I can't go through weeks of your results to find out when), your nation does not have enough of a restrictive attitude towards nudity to receive this policy.

Alright, thanks!
jacknjellify wrote:Watch Battle For Dream Island or be eliminated.

According to this index, this civilization is:
Tier: 8
Level: 5
Type: 6
A 9 civilization because I lean more towards it.

This nation is always used to post in the forums unless the forum is the WA, for which I use Triangle and Square, a WA member, to post.

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Roosevetania
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Founded: Jan 08, 2016
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Postby Roosevetania » Sat May 12, 2018 4:08 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Roosevetania wrote:I encountered Issue #613, Nude Day, Nude Awakening. I chose the third option that said there shouldn't be censorship on the Internet, then my Authoritarianism went up and my Civil Rights went down. This doesn't seem to make sense to me.


Pretty much explicitly covered in the first post FAQ.

But deciding there'll be no censorship on the internet is the complete opposite of authoritarianism.

EDIT: Ah, I think I understand. Is it because my Civil Rights were already strong, so those are somewhat unaffected, but the line "Quite frankly, celebrities and politicians should give up their expectations of privacy," made Authoritarianism go up. Is this correct?
Last edited by Roosevetania on Sat May 12, 2018 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
White Male, Libertarian Socialist, Anti-Fascist, United Methodist, American Deep South
Pro: socialism, anarchism (ideally), antifa, radical democracy, universal liberation, gun rights, open borders, revolution
Anti: capitalism, the state, authoritarianism, capitalist wars, capital punishment, Israel, generally most bourgeois institutions

Yang Jianguo, Member of the Revolutionary People's Party in the NS Parliament

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The Marsupial Illuminati
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Founded: Jul 24, 2016
Free-Market Paradise

Postby The Marsupial Illuminati » Sat May 12, 2018 4:13 am


Deleted by The Marsupial Illuminati on Sun May 32, 2008 13:11 pm, deleted 1 time in total.
Last edited by The Marsupial Illuminati on Sun May 27, 2018 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Roosevetania
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Founded: Jan 08, 2016
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Postby Roosevetania » Sat May 12, 2018 4:39 am

The Marsupial Illuminati wrote:
Roosevetania wrote:But deciding there'll be no censorship on the internet is the complete opposite of authoritarianism.

This is not a thread for debate. Here is your explanation:

You upheld the freedom of speech. However, you chipped away at the freedom of privacy. Thus, your civil rights stat decreased. And since the authoritarianism stat is the opposite of the civil rights stat, authoritarianism went up.

I realize that now, thanks!
White Male, Libertarian Socialist, Anti-Fascist, United Methodist, American Deep South
Pro: socialism, anarchism (ideally), antifa, radical democracy, universal liberation, gun rights, open borders, revolution
Anti: capitalism, the state, authoritarianism, capitalist wars, capital punishment, Israel, generally most bourgeois institutions

Yang Jianguo, Member of the Revolutionary People's Party in the NS Parliament

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Lamaredia
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Founded: May 25, 2012
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Postby Lamaredia » Sat May 12, 2018 9:00 am

Nation: Lamaredia
Date: Today, 12th of May
Issue: #679, Space Is Big Enough for the Both of Us
Problem: I opened up a Multinational Space Station with the nation mentioned in the blurb, and my civil rights went down. Why did this affect my civil rights? :)
Currently representing the SLP/R, Leading to a brighter future, in the NS Parliament RP as Representative Jonas Trägårdh Apelstierna.

Currently a co-admin of the NS Parliament RP

Political compass
Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.59

Result


Political test = Social Democrat
Cosmopolitan – 15%
Communistic - 44%
Anarchistic - 28%
Visionary - 50%
Secular - 53%
Pacifist - 12%
Anthropocentric– 16%

Result


Socio-Economic Ideology = Social Democracy
Social Democracy = 100%
Democratic Socialism = 83%
Anarchism 58%


Result
Last edited by Lamaredia on Fri June 07, 2019 1:05 AM, edited 52 times in total.

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The Free Joy State
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Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Joy State » Sat May 12, 2018 9:17 am

Lamaredia wrote:Nation: Lamaredia
Date: Today, 12th of May
Issue: #679, Space Is Big Enough for the Both of Us
Problem: I opened up a Multinational Space Station with the nation mentioned in the blurb, and my civil rights went down. Why did this affect my civil rights? :)


It reduces your citizens' privacy, due to the -- not so subtle -- implications that East Lebatuck is spying on your citizens:

"Comrade @@LEADER@@, there is no reason for any mistrust between us," comments @@RANDOMNAME@@, the East Lebatuckese representative, while discreetly placing a listening device under a pot plant. "Our proposal would launch @@NAME@@'s space program to new heights while setting a glorious example of friendship between our two great Motherlands. We're ready to launch the 'Spyonya' module, so just hurry up and agree to build the station already."


This small reduction in privacy can reduce civil rights in some nations (depending on where you start), and did for your nation (in large part because your civil rights are very good, meaning they were impacted to a larger extent by relatively small changes).
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat May 12, 2018 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

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Trithereon
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Founded: Apr 14, 2018
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Postby Trithereon » Sat May 12, 2018 10:46 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Trithereon wrote:414.1 - attempt to privatize city government - authoritarianism triples
Political freedom decreased because you replaced democracy with rule by the highest bidder.


Lowest bidder, actually, and what does authoritarianism have to do with political freedom? Democracies can be totalitarian and dictatorships can be libertarian.
347.3 and 571.1 are examples of the CORRECT way to handle authoritarianism: it should decrease or stay the same every time government stays out of something, regardless of what individuals do to each other.

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The Free Joy State
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Founded: Jan 05, 2014
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat May 12, 2018 10:50 am

Trithereon wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Political freedom decreased because you replaced democracy with rule by the highest bidder.


Lowest bidder, actually, and what does authoritarianism have to do with political freedom? Democracies can be totalitarian and dictatorships can be libertarian.


I answered this one earlier. Here is my answer, reprinted for your convenience:

The Free Joy State wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Political freedom decreased because you replaced democracy with rule by the highest bidder.


Trotterdam is correct. If you've privatised your city government, no longer have a democracy. You have a localised corporatocracy. The key word in the option is that companies will control everything (including city hall).


Handing over total control of local government to private and unaccountable companies removes control from your populace (and politicians), which is an authoritarian act and limits political freedoms of ordinary people.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat May 12, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

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Trithereon
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Founded: Apr 14, 2018
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Postby Trithereon » Sat May 12, 2018 10:58 am

And I explained why that answer made no sense.

Forgive the multiposting, for my phone manufacturer knoweth not the importance of cut and paste...

The Free Joy State wrote:
You selected the option that allows people to construct communities with private armed militia and walls topped with razor wire and poisoned barbs.

Having a community designed with things built to cause injury and death to other people (including would-be criminals) would account for the rise in authoritarianism.


But again, those things have nothing to do with each other. Quite the opposite: the alternative would be to send police to knock people's doors down and drag them to jail for trying to build such structures on their own property, and THAT actually WOULD be authoritarian.

Or, to put it another way, violence is only authoritarian when the government does it.
Last edited by Trithereon on Sat May 12, 2018 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
347.3 and 571.1 are examples of the CORRECT way to handle authoritarianism: it should decrease or stay the same every time government stays out of something, regardless of what individuals do to each other.

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The Free Joy State
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Founded: Jan 05, 2014
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat May 12, 2018 11:09 am

Trithereon wrote:And I explained why that answer made no sense.


A decrease in political freedoms (by becoming a corporatocracy) increases authoritarianism. Makes perfect sense to the editing team.

The issue is working as intended.

Forgive the multiposting, for my phone manufacturer knoweth not the importance of cut and paste...

The Free Joy State wrote:
You selected the option that allows people to construct communities with private armed militia and walls topped with razor wire and poisoned barbs.

Having a community designed with things built to cause injury and death to other people (including would-be criminals) would account for the rise in authoritarianism.


But again, those things have nothing to do with each other. Quite the opposite: the alternative would be to send police to knock people's doors down and drag them to jail for trying to build such structures on their own property, and THAT actually WOULD be authoritarian.


Authoritarianism is increased by any restriction on personal, political and economic freedoms. Although this option does grant freedoms to build compounds (which is represented and would see an increase in freedoms for some people), criminals don't stop being people just because they're criminals.

You can't maim them at will by building a compound with poisoned barbs and private militia. That arbitrary right to cause harm is where the authoritarianism comes from.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat May 12, 2018 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

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Drasnia
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Founded: Feb 02, 2012
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Postby Drasnia » Sat May 12, 2018 11:09 am

Trithereon wrote:And I explained why that answer made no sense.

Forgive the multiposting, for my phone manufacturer knoweth not the importance of cut and paste...

The Free Joy State wrote:
You selected the option that allows people to construct communities with private armed militia and walls topped with razor wire and poisoned barbs.

Having a community designed with things built to cause injury and death to other people (including would-be criminals) would account for the rise in authoritarianism.


But again, those things have nothing to do with each other. Quite the opposite: the alternative would be to send police to knock people's doors down and drag them to jail for trying to build such structures on their own property, and THAT actually WOULD be authoritarian.

Or, to put it another way, violence is only authoritarian when the government does it.

NS measures political freedom in a specific way: the ability for the people to effect change in the government. Elections, referendum, political protests - these all affect political freedoms in the NS simulation. The simulation, however, does not take property rights or other such things as political freedoms; they are classified as civil rights.

So no matter what a corporate government's policies would actually be (be they benevolent or malevolent), enacting such a government structure takes power away from the people in deciding how the government is run. What the government does is besides the point; the only thing that matters is the structure of said government.
See You Space Cowboy...

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Communist Zombie Horde
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Founded: Jan 04, 2018
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Postby Communist Zombie Horde » Sat May 12, 2018 11:13 am

Spam Spam Spam wrote:This isn't strictly an issue problem, but this doesn't make any sense to me.

I guess that’s stupid-sounding, but the computer ban is probably just for unauthorized civilians. Alternatively, the term could mean only laptop or desktop computers, not less capable computing devices. It’s more likely the programmers didn’t think about it and they don’t feel like fixing it.
NS Parliament: Arnold Delbert; National People's Party

This nation is not entirely representative of my views. I've had some fun with the stats and I want to keep them that way.

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Drasnia
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Founded: Feb 02, 2012
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Postby Drasnia » Sat May 12, 2018 11:16 am

Communist Zombie Horde wrote:
Spam Spam Spam wrote:This isn't strictly an issue problem, but this doesn't make any sense to me.

I guess that’s stupid-sounding, but the computer ban is probably just for unauthorized civilians. Alternatively, the term could mean only laptop or desktop computers, not less capable computing devices. It’s more likely the programmers didn’t think about it and they don’t feel like fixing it.

A thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters would eventually write works of Shakespeare, so I don't see why they wouldn't be able to run a space program. Whether you'd trust that space program or not is an entirely different issue.
See You Space Cowboy...

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Trithereon
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Founded: Apr 14, 2018
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Postby Trithereon » Sat May 12, 2018 11:28 am

Basically, you're telling me that NS calculates authoritarianism incorrectly because it relies on a counterfactual definition of authoritarianism. That needs to be fixed!

Affairs wrote:Where's the thread for discussing issues that are working as intended, but need to be fixed anyway because they were intended to work stupidly?

Kwomo wrote:I've looked through this thread, and apparently Free Speech counts as a civil right.
And a political freedom.
Also, it turns out that this is not the place to discuss this.
I would really like to know where I can raise this issue, because it's killing two of my nations, this one included.


Can we get an answer to this?
347.3 and 571.1 are examples of the CORRECT way to handle authoritarianism: it should decrease or stay the same every time government stays out of something, regardless of what individuals do to each other.

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The Free Joy State
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Posts: 16402
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Joy State » Sat May 12, 2018 11:31 am

Trithereon wrote:Basically, you're telling me that NS calculates authoritarianism incorrectly because it relies on a counterfactual definition of authoritarianism. That needs to be fixed!

Affairs wrote:Where's the thread for discussing issues that are working as intended, but need to be fixed anyway because they were intended to work stupidly?

Kwomo wrote:I've looked through this thread, and apparently Free Speech counts as a civil right.
And a political freedom.
Also, it turns out that this is not the place to discuss this.
I would really like to know where I can raise this issue, because it's killing two of my nations, this one included.


Can we get an answer to this?


These have been answered, and the second example was very happy with the response.

I ask that you please stop raising points that have already been answered. This is not a discussion thread.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

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Trithereon
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Founded: Apr 14, 2018
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Postby Trithereon » Sun May 13, 2018 7:43 pm

Nope. The last thing that was said on the subject was this:

BigOstan wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:
This is not a thread to discuss how you'd like effects to work. This is a thread to raise unusual effects on issues and receive answers.

(...)


It's funny that he not only pointed this out himself, but also asked where should he take the discussion. I'm posting this because I want to second that question. It's directly related to unusual issue effects and you won't answer it. Instead Kwomo gets policed on his language and I get disallowed from bringing up the matter again.

The Free Joy State wrote:By the way, this is your first time interracting on the forums, so perhaps we got off to a bad start. But dismissing things as "silly" is not the most effective way to get people to help you.


I agree. Calling things 'silly' is a bad way to get help. But I think you'll also agree that dedicating a paragraph to one usage of the word 'silly' is a bad way to give it. We don't want to argue with you or annoy you. We just want an answer to our question, a link to the correct place in the forum would be enough.


No such link was ever given, as far as I can tell.
347.3 and 571.1 are examples of the CORRECT way to handle authoritarianism: it should decrease or stay the same every time government stays out of something, regardless of what individuals do to each other.

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