[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[Luna Amore]

I got the issue “Gunman Kills 3” (I think that was the name?) number 20 today (April 14th), selected the first option banning guns for civilians and got a wide variety of effects. I will list them here.
(I had the “Show Details” on)
Going up:

Pacifism
Social Conservatism
Safety
Black Market
Authoritarianism
Primitiveness
Health
Averageness
Ignorance
Tourism
Patriotism
Weather
Income equality
Compliance
Lifespan

Down:

Human development index
Death rate
Employment
Average income of poor
Nudity(???)
Obesity
Wealth gaps
Economic output
Industry: cheese exports
Law enforcement
Defense forces
Public education
Average income
Public healthcare
Eco friendliness
Welfare
Public transport
Foreign aid
Industry: information technology
Business subsidization
Recreational drug use
Crime
Average disposable income
Average income of rich
Rudeness
Economy
Charmlessness
Civil rights
Ideological radicality
Economic freedom
Scientific advancement
Weaponization
Freedom from taxation
Industry: arms manufacturing

What is it you are reporting? I'd really rather not go through that list and provide an explanation for each if I can avoid it.

[Steelfeather Rapture 2]

Issue #50 Whips, Chains, and Leather, Oh My! has an anomalous Size of Government increase on the second option. Specifying only that the practice of walking sapient pets in public is to be legalized, it increased business subsidization and overall size of government.

[Outer Sparta]

Issue #50 Whips, Chains, and Leather, Oh My! has an anomalous Size of Government increase on the second option. Specifying only that the practice of walking sapient pets in public is to be legalized, it increased business subsidization and overall size of government.

Option 2 is merely an extension of Option 1. In both cases, you still give support to BDSM activities.

[Steelfeather Rapture 2]

Issue #50 Whips, Chains, and Leather, Oh My! has an anomalous Size of Government increase on the second option. Specifying only that the practice of walking sapient pets in public is to be legalized, it increased business subsidization and overall size of government.

Option 2 is merely an extension of Option 1. In both cases, you still give support to BDSM activities.

Legal support is different from financial support. Option #2 is anarchic support, which shouldn't be pro-government. This issue result is VERY surprising, and it's upsetting to be told that BDSM needs subsidies.

While I'm here, I found another one. #658 A Sickening Dilemma (in my Wind and Void Rapture 1 puppet) Option #1 (quarantines) reduced Pizza Delivery. Quarantines should favor delivery food options, as they have in the real world. Plus, while quarantine & vaccinate is a GREAT medical policy contra pandemics, it's a TERRIBLE medical policy contra obesity. Check out this link:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... -lifestyle

#658 A Sickening Dilemma Option #1 needs to be a +Health, +Obesity policy. Treating people like that protects their health AND increases obesity rates.

[Typica]

That's sure not how it ever worked in the past. there was one issue (evidently two but I've never seen the other one in all my years on NS) that gives you nudism, and a few that remove it, which only show up after you got that first one. Now I've gone many years without seeing even THAT issue (#8) but it's definitely not a policy that ever spontaneously appeared or disappeared before. It relied on #8 being answered a certain way. Now I'm to believe it's stat-based?
Apologies for replying to such an old post, but I'm getting so impatient and I know there must be something I messed up somewhere that's preventing me from getting the/a nudity issue. Hopefully that aspect of it keeps this post on-topic. (I canceled nudism by accident, one of those many issues that can do that)

Me too Otaku, if there's any insight on this, I'd like to see it.

[Verdant Haven]

That's sure not how it ever worked in the past. there was one issue (evidently two but I've never seen the other one in all my years on NS) that gives you nudism, and a few that remove it, which only show up after you got that first one. Now I've gone many years without seeing even THAT issue (#8) but it's definitely not a policy that ever spontaneously appeared or disappeared before. It relied on #8 being answered a certain way. Now I'm to believe it's stat-based?
Apologies for replying to such an old post, but I'm getting so impatient and I know there must be something I messed up somewhere that's preventing me from getting the/a nudity issue. Hopefully that aspect of it keeps this post on-topic. (I canceled nudism by accident, one of those many issues that can do that)

Me too Otaku, if there's any insight on this, I'd like to see it.

There's not much other insight to provide. It is a pseudo-policy exactly as CWA described, which is based on a stat. Some issues have massive impacts on certain stats, and rapidly achieve a given result, while others have much smaller impacts but still go in the same direction. If you're far enough down that path already when you answer one of the smaller impact issues, those smaller stat pushes can still trigger the pseudo-policy in exactly the same way (though perhaps less dramatic a fashion) than something like Issue 8. Remember that "the freedom to be nude" is an entirely different beast from "government-mandated nudity."

If the wait is getting frustrating, or you feel like there is a route to your desired result that isn't being used in an issue yet, we always welcome quality issue submissions! Several of the issues I wrote before becoming an editor were originally motivated by the fact that I wanted to see certain results in game, but hadn't found a way to get them yet.

[Typica]

There's not much other insight to provide. It is a pseudo-policy exactly as CWA described, which is based on a stat. Some issues have massive impacts on certain stats, and rapidly achieve a given result, while others have much smaller impacts but still go in the same direction. If you're far enough down that path already when you answer one of the smaller impact issues, those smaller stat pushes can still trigger the pseudo-policy in exactly the same way (though perhaps less dramatic a fashion) than something like Issue 8. Remember that "the freedom to be nude" is an entirely different beast from "government-mandated nudity."

If the wait is getting frustrating, or you feel like there is a route to your desired result that isn't being used in an issue yet, we always welcome quality issue submissions! Several of the issues I wrote before becoming an editor were originally motivated by the fact that I wanted to see certain results in game, but hadn't found a way to get them yet.

Could you expand on what a "pseudo-policy" is perhaps? There are things called Notables, might these and those be the same? Mine seem to include "free-roaming dinosaurs" and "smutty television".
https://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/api.cgi?nation=typica&q=notables
Otherwise statements like "public nudity is compulsory" and "Clothing is forbidden" leave little room in my understanding for anything other than "government-mandated nudity."

Also, I haven't found this FAQ that CWA mentioned; or at least not one with the statement quoted. And that statement:
"..many of these pseudo-policies are based on stats that the game only generates for a nation the first time they are used. This means that the pseudo-policy may suddenly appear when that stat is generated, even if.."
That's definitely valid English, but I'm lost for understanding. What's meant by "generates" and "first time used" here?

And Pseudo or not, I'm still confident not having encountered issues 8 or 823 is extremely relevant.
Many (perhaps most?) issues must have prerequisite conditions to appear which certainly makes narrative sense.
And I'm really eager for some speculation of what those reqs might be here, which was what I believe Otaku was asking for as well.

[Verdant Haven]

Could you expand on what a "pseudo-policy" is perhaps? There are things called Notables, might these and those be the same? Mine seem to include "free-roaming dinosaurs" and "smutty television".
https://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/api.cgi?nation=typica&q=notables
Otherwise statements like "public nudity is compulsory" and "Clothing is forbidden" leave little room in my understanding for anything other than "government-mandated nudity."

Also, I haven't found this FAQ that CWA mentioned; or at least not one with the statement quoted. And that statement:
"..many of these pseudo-policies are based on stats that the game only generates for a nation the first time they are used. This means that the pseudo-policy may suddenly appear when that stat is generated, even if.."
That's definitely valid English, but I'm lost for understanding. What's meant by "generates" and "first time used" here?

The FAQ referenced is in the first post of this thread we're talking in: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=424650&p=32581480
The one about Pseudo-Policies is the sixth down, entitled "Why did THIS policy switch on or turn off out of line with the issue's story?" but I'll copy it here for ease of access:

"Why did THIS policy switch on or turn off out of line with the issue's story?"

It may be an error, and something to report here. However, it may not. Read the below information first.

The following policies are not on/off binary flags directed by issue editors, but rather were implemented to change when your nation crosses above or below a certain threshold in various freedoms:

Theocracy
Free Press
Gun Ownership
State Press
No Dissent
No Drugs
No Gambling
Public Protest
No Marriage
Arranged Marriage
Atheism
Nudism
Prudity
State Surveillance

For example, Public Protest looks at a backstage number that often is coded to move when the right to protest is infringed or increased. When that number is below or above a certain threshold (lets arbitrarily say 700/1000, though these aren't the actual numbers) the policy can turn on or off. That means that even a tiny "side-effect" level movement of +1 or -1 can be enough to change the policy flag. Indeed, said change might not even be a result of a narrative relating to protests.

Because these "pseudo-policies" were late additions to the game code, we never considered their activation or deactivation in narratives when assigning the invisible stats that they're based upon, and the way we use such stats is guided by long-established operation rules, not with a view to considering these policies.

But hold on... it get's worse. Also, many of these pseudo-policies are based on stats that the game only generates for a nation the first time they are used. This means that the pseudo-policy may suddenly appear when that stat is generated, even if the decision is one which is pushing the stat away from the pseudo-policy's criterion.

For example, you could make a pro-nudity decision, and because it's the first ever decision made on this metric, the game would generate the invisible stat for your nation, then it'd notice you're now in range for Prudism, and ABRACADABRA, a pro-nudism decision generates Prudism for your nation.

Also the pseudopolicies are based upon specific interpretations of backstage stats, which have sometimes been used beyond those interpretations. For example, drug-related pseudopolicies has descriptive text implying that it is just about recreational drugs, whereas for a very long time we've also used the stat it references to also refer to freedom to use drugs of all sorts, including medicines and painkillers. So you might allow someone to use painkillers, and cancel No Drugs.

Clearly this is creating major narrative disconnects, but the tech team hasn't got a good solution yet, so for now, just be aware that this is a known bug.

From a player perspective, there is not a visible difference between regular policies and pseudo-policies - they all simply show up in the "Policies" tab of your nation. The difference is in how the game determines you have them. For "regular" policies, it is a binary value that gets set when you choose certain answers. For pseudo-policies (listed by CWA in the FAQ above), it is when the relevant stat crosses a certain threshold.

In terms of what is meant by "generated" and "first time used," when you answer issues, you are presented with results in the form of statistical effects (some things go up by a certain amount, some things go down by a certain amount). Those are stat changes. Issues don't affect every stat - only some stats are impacted by any given answer. A new nation does not have a value for every stat until those stats are used by issues it answers. If, for example, you create a new nation and haven't answered anything that affects nudity, you may not have a nudity stat. When you answer your first issue that impacts that stat, that is the first time that stat is used, so it is generated and assigned to your nation at that time.

[Typica]

The FAQ referenced is in the first post of this thread we're talking in: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=424650&p=32581480

Oops, thank you, that was dumb of me.

From a player perspective, there is not a visible difference between regular policies and pseudo-policies - they all simply show up in the "Policies" tab of your nation. The difference is in how the game determines you have them. For "regular" policies, it is a binary value that gets set when you choose certain answers. For pseudo-policies (listed by CWA in the FAQ above), it is when the relevant stat crosses a certain threshold.

In terms of what is meant by "generated" and "first time used," when you answer issues, you are presented with results in the form of statistical effects (some things go up by a certain amount, some things go down by a certain amount). Those are stat changes. Issues don't affect every stat - only some stats are impacted by any given answer. A new nation does not have a value for every stat until those stats are used by issues it answers. If, for example, you create a new nation and haven't answered anything that affects nudity, you may not have a nudity stat. When you answer your first issue that impacts that stat, that is the first time that stat is used, so it is generated and assigned to your nation at that time.

So to test my own understanding here, there is some census stat or combination of stats, (or maybe a hidden stat?) that drives the appearance of this policy.
These psuedo policies should appear whenever these stat conditions are adequate, regardless of the issue.

However, there are many of nations without the Nudism policy with far greater nudity than those with this policy, so it can't just be this stat.
Now maybe even with the right stats, these policies might only present after certain issue resolutions? Which here seems to be 8 and 823.
Which leads me back to my recurring question, what might be required for these issues to present?

[Pangurstan]

Why does the last option of 708 lower corruption? Lying to people so you can use them as test subject seems like it should raise corruption.

[Toast Incorporated]

I got the issue “Gunman Kills 3” (I think that was the name?) number 20 today (April 14th), selected the first option banning guns for civilians and got a wide variety of effects. I will list them here.
(I had the “Show Details” on)
Going up:

Pacifism
Social Conservatism
Safety
Black Market
Authoritarianism
Primitiveness
Health
Averageness
Ignorance
Tourism
Patriotism
Weather
Income equality
Compliance
Lifespan

Down:

Human development index
Death rate
Employment
Average income of poor
Nudity(???)
Obesity
Wealth gaps
Economic output
Industry: cheese exports
Law enforcement
Defense forces
Public education
Average income
Public healthcare
Eco friendliness
Welfare
Public transport
Foreign aid
Industry: information technology
Business subsidization
Recreational drug use
Crime
Average disposable income
Average income of rich
Rudeness
Economy
Charmlessness
Civil rights
Ideological radicality
Economic freedom
Scientific advancement
Weaponization
Freedom from taxation
Industry: arms manufacturing

What is it you are reporting? I'd really rather not go through that list and provide an explanation for each if I can avoid it.

Sure, probably should have put that in there!
Scientific advancement, recreational drug use, eco friendliness, public education, cheese exports, nudity, averageness, and tourism were some that I found unusual.

[The Forest of Aeneas]

Why did "Why Didn't the Gigas Cancer Cross the Road?" decrease Eco-Friendliness when Option 1 is chosen, but increase Environmental Beauty?

[Wind and Void Rapture 1]

Name of the nation: Wind and Void Rapture 1
Day the issue was encountered: 2022-04-27
Name and number of the issue: Video Games Too Violent, Say Parents #188

I worked my nation into the rudeness reversal range with great difficulty. Why did this issue increase rudeness? I want to start politely unrestricting people for the dream of polite anarchism! It shouldn't take force to get people to respect each other. It's not legitimate or true to force people to respect each other. So how far into the politeness range do I have to get before the politeness reversals start working consistently?

[Gardar]

Name of the nation: Gardar
Day the issue was encountered: 2022-04-30
Name and number of the issue: #32 One Wife Is Never Enough, Say Polygamists

I allowed polygamy, and all that it did was an increase in inclusiveness and in food quality.

It did not affect civil rights, social conservatism, or anything of that sort. Just these two stats.

Why? And why of all the stats did it increase food quality?

[Umbratellus]

Name of the nation: Gardar
Day the issue was encountered: 2022-04-30
Name and number of the issue: #32 One Wife Is Never Enough, Say Polygamists

I allowed polygamy, and all that it did was an increase in inclusiveness and in food quality.

It did not affect civil rights, social conservatism, or anything of that sort. Just these two stats.

Why? And why of all the stats did it increase food quality?

Inclusivity is tied to Food Quality; issues that harm inclusivity tend to harm food quality and vice-versa.

[Gardar]

Name of the nation: Gardar
Day the issue was encountered: 2022-04-30
Name and number of the issue: #32 One Wife Is Never Enough, Say Polygamists

I allowed polygamy, and all that it did was an increase in inclusiveness and in food quality.

It did not affect civil rights, social conservatism, or anything of that sort. Just these two stats.

Why? And why of all the stats did it increase food quality?

Inclusivity is tied to Food Quality; issues that harm inclusivity tend to harm food quality and vice-versa.

Weird, thanks. Though I am much more bummered by the fact, that it didn't change any other parameters. My civil rights is around 73-74, so I thought that it would increase, since it was the first issue on that question I had (got Polygamy policy from it)

[Fizzopolis]

I got the issue Augmented Reality Check (no. 582) recently, even though my nation has banned cars and I've always selected any options to pedestrianise my cities.

Apologies if this is the wrong thread for this, I wasn't sure exactly where it belonged.

[Pogaria]

I got the issue Augmented Reality Check (no. 582) recently, even though my nation has banned cars and I've always selected any options to pedestrianise my cities.

Apologies if this is the wrong thread for this, I wasn't sure exactly where it belonged.

For future reference, validity questions go here. However, I would be happy to point out that the "unseen vehicles" that are mentioned don't need to be motorized. Bicycles can certainly fit this description.

[Prusmia]

Prusmia
Today: May 12 2022
Issue 728, "A Bone to Pick"

Chose option 1: “DAH-ling, when I play the Oedipal Prince I want your rapt attention!” explains the pretentious actor, shaking his uncle’s left femur at you for emphasis. “Did not the jester’s head held aloft in my hand both capture and captivate your gaze? Was I not momentarily a solitary tableau vivant to behold and admire? A replica would have lacked authenticity, and the Art demands authenticity! Owning human bones should be perfectly legal for all, as should gathering any unclaimed remains. My wondrous panoply of accoutrements is not complete without these fragments of mortality!”

Why does legalizing the right to own a corpse lower civil rights? If this sounds stupid I'm sorry I think it might be an interpretation issue, or I'm just weird.
(ignore all the edits related to this image)

[Verdant Haven]

Issue 728, "A Bone to Pick"

-snip-

Why does legalizing the right to own a corpse lower civil rights? If this sounds stupid I'm sorry I think it might be an interpretation issue, or I'm just weird.

The important part is this:

"Owning human bones should be perfectly legal for all, as should gathering any unclaimed remains."

It's not so much the first part... it's the second that's the kicker. The option not only makes no mention of an opt-out, it specifically allows for the harvesting of bodies without consent of the deceased. Presumably the right being reduced in this case is the right to have one's corpse undisturbed.

[Lofia]

@Candlewhisper Archive What does "the amalgamated effect of ALL your decisions that matters" mean? Does it mean that all of my decisions will slightly modify the calculation formula every time?

[Lofia]

Lofia: 2022-05-13
#466: @@NAME@@ Is Never Ever Getting Back Together... Like Ever
Option 3: "Making him needlessly suffer seems a tad bit extreme," suggests Mike's concerned grandmother @@RANDOMFEMALENAME@@. "Sure, I'm a little upset that Mike doesn't want to be part of our wonderful country and that he tried to snap that mailman's neck, but you have to look at it from both perspectives. If the government wants to win back Mike and the secessionists he instigated, they could start by allowing greater autonomy to regions that want it. I'm sure that Mikey will gladly return to us if you show a little love and understanding."
Result: The government is allowing greater autonomy for some regions in the hopes of quelling growing secessionist movements.
Stat change: Patriotism: 10.39→0.66 -93.6% [http://www.mwq.dds.nl/ns/results/466.html says "-16.75 to -0 Patriotism (mean -6.1442)"]

Why did patriotism decrease so much for an authoritarian country? I only decided on 30-50 issues for this nation by the way. Is this one reason?

[Umbratellus]

Lofia: 2022-05-13
#466: @@NAME@@ Is Never Ever Getting Back Together... Like Ever
Option 3: "Making him needlessly suffer seems a tad bit extreme," suggests Mike's concerned grandmother @@RANDOMFEMALENAME@@. "Sure, I'm a little upset that Mike doesn't want to be part of our wonderful country and that he tried to snap that mailman's neck, but you have to look at it from both perspectives. If the government wants to win back Mike and the secessionists he instigated, they could start by allowing greater autonomy to regions that want it. I'm sure that Mikey will gladly return to us if you show a little love and understanding."
Result: The government is allowing greater autonomy for some regions in the hopes of quelling growing secessionist movements.
Stat change: Patriotism: 10.39→0.66 -93.6% [http://www.mwq.dds.nl/ns/results/466.html says "-16.75 to -0 Patriotism (mean -6.1442)"]

Why did patriotism decrease so much for an authoritarian country? I only decided on 30-50 issues for this nation by the way. Is this one reason?

It’s because you got the devolution policy. Same thing happened to me a while back. If you check my patriotism trend the big dip is when I got it. It’s since recovered so it’s not a permanent loss. Favoring localism like that means people are less focused on the cohesion of the whole nation and more on their immediate vicinity.

[Lofia]

It’s because you got the devolution policy. Same thing happened to me a while back. If you check my patriotism trend the big dip is when I got it. It’s since recovered so it’s not a permanent loss. Favoring localism like that means people are less focused on the cohesion of the whole nation and more on their immediate vicinity.

I see, thank you for the insight. I was worrying that my Patriotism stats would go below zero. I got the Devolution policy due to selecting Issue #466 Option #3.

[Wind and Void Rapture 1]

Why does environmentalism seem to drain obesity so hard? I just got #138 Keep the Greenbelt Green, Say Protesters and chose the environmentalist option. Now in addition to having "lost in wilderness" showing up in my death graph at 0.9%, my obesity rate just got kicked in the gut, falling from 15.62 to 13.88. We can see IRL that 1) environmental restrictions on land development aren't this high-impact on anything, and 2) fat environmentalists aren't rare, so why is this issue so extreme in its effects? Can it be toned down and maybe made more obesity-tolerant?