[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[Mesadora]

#930 "Flag It Down?":
Chose option that essentially said "who cares about flags? we're all just human no matter where we come from"

Pacifism went down 0.2%. I would expect it to go up, probably drastically up.
Effect text said "Flags are commonly used as bonfire kindling." which could imply violence, but that seems very far removed from the actual option chosen.

[BeatsMe]

#1287 Children of the Magna Carta
Option 4 is nice role playing/what if option.
However the effects should be truly negative on economy and general government capacity to take reasonable actions (can be simulated by such effects as crime up, tax up, corruption up).
Only inclusiveness, compassion should go up.

After all no effects (as it is now) actually means that:
1. the day person turns 18 - he/she becomes idiot/bad person or something along that lines.
2. the additional education and life experience is not only irrelevant, but actually actively harms people/society.
3. the skills (including social) people acquire after 18 are all bad..

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Issue 1239 option 2, with this nation

There were very significant economic effects, including an 8% increase to my already high business subsidisation, and 7% decreases to my two largest industries, agriculture and trout fishing.

Given that the issue addresses a very rare occurrence (people being declared dead when they aren't), I don't see why it should have a more dramatic effect on my economy than pretty much any economic issue I've come across.

This issue option is indeed coded to have very small effects.

However, you're failing to understand how percentages work. See the first post of this thread, which explains.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Issue 240, option 1. This nation

Increased taxation by a fairly substantial amount (at least compared to most issues, even economic ones). It's not a massive change, but I'm struggling to understand how reducing pressure on the justice system and making trials less time-consuming would lead to an increase in tax.

Again, percentages.

Your absolute change in tax rate was from 1.25% to 1.3%.

On review of that issue, however, I've tweaked the stats in some ways unrelated to your complaint, to iron out some small oddities.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

#930 "Flag It Down?":
Chose option that essentially said "who cares about flags? we're all just human no matter where we come from"

Pacifism went down 0.2%. I would expect it to go up, probably drastically up.
Effect text said "Flags are commonly used as bonfire kindling." which could imply violence, but that seems very far removed from the actual option chosen.

Cause found and fixed.

It's complex, but it was due to a combination of core program level satire within the stats, combined with an editor using one stat as a rough approximation of another. Removing that approximation fixed the problem.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

#1287 Children of the Magna Carta
Option 4 is nice role playing/what if option.
However the effects should be truly negative on economy and general government capacity to take reasonable actions (can be simulated by such effects as crime up, tax up, corruption up).
Only inclusiveness, compassion should go up.

After all no effects (as it is now) actually means that:
1. the day person turns 18 - he/she becomes idiot/bad person or something along that lines.
2. the additional education and life experience is not only irrelevant, but actually actively harms people/society.
3. the skills (including social) people acquire after 18 are all bad..

You picked option 2.

Also, please try to specify the exact effect that you found to be unexpected, rather than just presenting a full list of stat changes you'd want to see attached.

[BeatsMe]

#1287 Children of the Magna Carta

Please consider the essence, I know I picked option 2. We both now that there is certain saite that allows you to see what are the average effects.
I just point out that option 4 should have reasonable negative effects associated with it to reflect the real life.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

No, we don't take unexpected effect reports based on the averages from Trotterdam's site. Those are average movements across a wide data sample. Every individual nation will respond differently to issues according to their starting position.

To be clear, this query is closed, and future reports based on Trotterdam's stat tracker are not desired.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

Issue 1239 option 2, with this nation

There were very significant economic effects, including an 8% increase to my already high business subsidisation, and 7% decreases to my two largest industries, agriculture and trout fishing.

Given that the issue addresses a very rare occurrence (people being declared dead when they aren't), I don't see why it should have a more dramatic effect on my economy than pretty much any economic issue I've come across.

This issue option is indeed coded to have very small effects.

However, you're failing to understand how percentages work. See the first post of this thread, which explains.

As per the first post:

The perceived magnitude of effect that you are experiencing often results from being a new nation. The earliest issues you answer always cause massive stat changes, as you're adding small numbers to small numbers. As time goes on you'll find that the same issues will often now barely affect things at all, as you're adding small numbers to very large numbers.

1. Aqualagoon is not a new nation, I've answered hundreds of issues on it over the last 3 years.
2. As I mentioned in my post, the effects were on very large stats. My agriculture dropped by 7% (5000 MU). Whichever way you look at that, it's a very large change.

I appreciate the work you guys do, so won't be going further with this, but I just thought I'd let you know.

[Yirophia]

Curiously, this morning Yirophia somehow managed to raise "taxation" and "freedom from taxation" at the same time.

I didn't think to take note of the issue name or number, but the option I picked gave me this outcome for the flavour text: "13 hours ago: Following new legislation in Yirophia, motorists must pay to enter inner-cities during peak hours."

[Interwood]

#1275 "You Cruise, You Lose", option 1. Interwood

Tourism up by 1.7% (from 19.60 to 19.93). Theoretically, shouldn't tourism go down?

[Western Day]

- Western Day
- Happened today
- This Way's Kinder, Issue No. 642

NSindex link

Option 1 establishes "The Children Of @@LEADER@@", a group that encourages children to "sing songs [about the leader], to swear allegiance to the flag, to camp in the wilderness, maybe how to clean and shoot a rifle."

My nation had no previously passed gun legislation, and did not have a mandatory pledge of allegiance.

It resulted in a couple of unexpected changes:
50% increase in drug usage
21.5% increase in civil rights

0.21% decrease in authoritarianism
0.7% decrease in ideological radicality
0.39% decrease in social conservatism
0.48% decrease in law enforcement
3.7% decrease in charmlessness

Setting up a youth group dedicated to the leader seems pretty nationalistic, so these effects seem to be the opposite of what they should be. This is definitely not good for civil rights. The change in drug usage is entirely unexpected, because there is no clear link between this option and any effect on how much people use drugs. It seems like this option might have been confused with Option 3, which does not establish a youth group, and so would have the exact opposite effect of Option 1.

---

Also, the first post on this thread contains a misplaced space. "An option that reduces the market share that goes to the black market but which grows the economy as a whole could result in the absolute market size of the black market increasing, even as you decrease the black market's proportional prominence int he economy."

[Western Day]

Curiously, this morning Yirophia somehow managed to raise "taxation" and "freedom from taxation" at the same time.

I didn't think to take note of the issue name or number, but the option I picked gave me this outcome for the flavour text: "13 hours ago: Following new legislation in Yirophia, motorists must pay to enter inner-cities during peak hours."

That would be Issue 102, For Whom The Road Tolls, Option 1.

[Cascadiana]

Nation name: Cascadiana
Date: 4 Jan 2020
Issue number / Name: : #828 "Your Execution In 30 Years Or Less Or You're Free"

Selected Option #1

Effect increased crime (.75%)

[Yirophia]

https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._341

Picking the option to just give everyone ID chips increased black market size. Notably, this didn't actually ban anything, only made it much easier to enforce the law, as well as instrument other interventions like saving people lost in the woods like the titular girl.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

- Western Day
- Happened today
- This Way's Kinder, Issue No. 642

NSindex link

Option 1 establishes "The Children Of @@LEADER@@", a group that encourages children to "sing songs [about the leader], to swear allegiance to the flag, to camp in the wilderness, maybe how to clean and shoot a rifle."

My nation had no previously passed gun legislation, and did not have a mandatory pledge of allegiance.

It resulted in a couple of unexpected changes:
50% increase in drug usage
21.5% increase in civil rights

0.21% decrease in authoritarianism
0.7% decrease in ideological radicality
0.39% decrease in social conservatism
0.48% decrease in law enforcement
3.7% decrease in charmlessness

Setting up a youth group dedicated to the leader seems pretty nationalistic, so these effects seem to be the opposite of what they should be. This is definitely not good for civil rights. The change in drug usage is entirely unexpected, because there is no clear link between this option and any effect on how much people use drugs. It seems like this option might have been confused with Option 3, which does not establish a youth group, and so would have the exact opposite effect of Option 1.

The changes you describe are a knock-on effect of a small increase in gun freedoms. Other freedoms that would have been suppressed were -- for you -- already at the minimum level.

---

Also, the first post on this thread contains a misplaced space. "An option that reduces the market share that goes to the black market but which grows the economy as a whole could result in the absolute market size of the black market increasing, even as you decrease the black market's proportional prominence int he economy."

Thanks will fix.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Nation name: Cascadiana
Date: 4 Jan 2020
Issue number / Name: : #828 "Your Execution In 30 Years Or Less Or You're Free"

Selected Option #1

Effect increased crime (.75%)

That's correct and expected.

Firstly, there's an absence of evidence that increased harshness of punishment has any deterrent effect on crime, so there's no justification from crime decrease.

Second, a government that expedites executions on the basis of financial expediency and convenience rather than on the notion of justice is one that is acting with less kindness and compassion towards it's people. The simulation doesn't divide between the compassion of government and the compassion of its people, instead assuming a sort of "trickle down" of callousness from the top, which in turn results in a small increase in criminality.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._341

Picking the option to just give everyone ID chips increased black market size. Notably, this didn't actually ban anything, only made it much easier to enforce the law, as well as instrument other interventions like saving people lost in the woods like the titular girl.

Please state the nation used, and the date the issue was picked.

[Yirophia]

https://nsindex.net/wiki/NationStates_Issue_No._341

Picking the option to just give everyone ID chips increased black market size. Notably, this didn't actually ban anything, only made it much easier to enforce the law, as well as instrument other interventions like saving people lost in the woods like the titular girl.

Please state the nation used, and the date the issue was picked.

This one, the day I posted.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Let's have a look.

The option in question implants mandatory GPS trackers in every citizen, allowing the government to track their movements. The stats look to be in keeping with this.

Black Market Size specifically is a stat that is sensitive to a wide number of factors, and is the endpoint of a complex calculation. The changes you experienced were in keeping with the code assigned to this issue option.

I can't draw the links for you between the stats effected and Black Market without revealing more of the game engine than is permitted, but this looks to be working as intended.

[Yirophia]

Let's have a look.

The option in question implants mandatory GPS trackers in every citizen, allowing the government to track their movements. The stats look to be in keeping with this.

Black Market Size specifically is a stat that is sensitive to a wide number of factors, and is the endpoint of a complex calculation. The changes you experienced were in keeping with the code assigned to this issue option.

I can't draw the links for you between the stats effected and Black Market without revealing more of the game engine than is permitted, but this looks to be working as intended.

It's a fancy nation simulator game for fun, not a nuclear launch system. In real life there's armies worth of economists, statistical analysts, and other technocrats at the ready to tell the political class, at least broadly, what effects a policy can be expected to bring about and why.

... I mean, they don't listen to the people who actually know these things, most of the time, but still.

[Transbiansylvania]

Today I responded to dilemma=724, Your Stuff Is Forfeit. The crux of the issue is that a man's massive mansion is seized under property forfeiture laws after his nephew was arrested for dealing drugs. That isn't a crime in my nation, and I have handled specific issues legalizing not just common 'soft' drugs, but also 'hard' drugs like heroin and methamphetamine. I understand that drug law is not the primary subject in question, but this still shouldn't pop up with that particular cause for arrest if I have legalized all substances, yesno?

[Frisbeeteria]

Issue regarding drug dealing arrest despite legal drugs

Questions relating to issues behavior belong in this thread, not the Technical forum. Merged.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Let's have a look.

The option in question implants mandatory GPS trackers in every citizen, allowing the government to track their movements. The stats look to be in keeping with this.

Black Market Size specifically is a stat that is sensitive to a wide number of factors, and is the endpoint of a complex calculation. The changes you experienced were in keeping with the code assigned to this issue option.

I can't draw the links for you between the stats effected and Black Market without revealing more of the game engine than is permitted, but this looks to be working as intended.

It's a fancy nation simulator game for fun, not a nuclear launch system. In real life there's armies worth of economists, statistical analysts, and other technocrats at the ready to tell the political class, at least broadly, what effects a policy can be expected to bring about and why.

... I mean, they don't listen to the people who actually know these things, most of the time, but still.

Nonetheless, we all agree to certain disclosure rules when we sign up to the various volunteer roles, so this discussion is closed.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Today I responded to dilemma=724, Your Stuff Is Forfeit. The crux of the issue is that a man's massive mansion is seized under property forfeiture laws after his nephew was arrested for dealing drugs. That isn't a crime in my nation, and I have handled specific issues legalizing not just common 'soft' drugs, but also 'hard' drugs like heroin and methamphetamine. I understand that drug law is not the primary subject in question, but this still shouldn't pop up with that particular cause for arrest if I have legalized all substances, yesno?

This issue already has a validity check excluding nations where all drugs are legal. So actually, your nation does have some illegal drugs, you just weren't aware of it.

Checking your stats, your nation is very liberal towards drugs, but nowhere near the extreme of all drugs being legal. It's possible that at some stage historically you legalised all drugs, but then subsequently legislated some restrictions on.