[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[The Chuck]

The name of the nation that had this effect: The Chuck
The day that this effect was encountered: March 22nd, 2019
The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue: Issue No. 103. "Plague Of The Hybrids!"

According to this website, I went with option 1. Somehow, although it clearly states "We can't make a living like this! You've got to give us the funds and manpower to shoot anything that comes within a mile of our property and put an end to these freaks of nature!", it didn't positively increase weaponization or arms manufacturing and actually caused a decrease in stats of arms manufacturing and law enforcement. Seemed a bit of a weird effect issue. Thanks in advance for looking into it!

[Minoa]

The name of the nation that had this effect: The Chuck
The day that this effect was encountered: March 22nd, 2019
The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue: Issue No. 103. "Plague Of The Hybrids!"

According to this website, I went with option 1. Somehow, although it clearly states "We can't make a living like this! You've got to give us the funds and manpower to shoot anything that comes within a mile of our property and put an end to these freaks of nature!", it didn't positively increase weaponization or arms manufacturing and actually caused a decrease in stats of arms manufacturing and law enforcement. Seemed a bit of a weird effect issue. Thanks in advance for looking into it!

NSindex cannot accept issues statistical effects based on user reports, due to numerous complaints about the accuracy.

-- Minoa

[Candlewhisper Archive]

The name of the nation that had this effect: The Chuck
The day that this effect was encountered: March 22nd, 2019
The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue: Issue No. 103. "Plague Of The Hybrids!"

According to this website, I went with option 1. Somehow, although it clearly states "We can't make a living like this! You've got to give us the funds and manpower to shoot anything that comes within a mile of our property and put an end to these freaks of nature!", it didn't positively increase weaponization or arms manufacturing and actually caused a decrease in stats of arms manufacturing and law enforcement. Seemed a bit of a weird effect issue. Thanks in advance for looking into it!

As a corollary to Minoa's comments, the Issues staff don't accept any responsibility for outcome expectations set by nsindex.

Anyway, regarding that effect: have given it a slight tweak to increase arms manufacturing. Can't see any narrative reason that law enforcement would increase.

[Trotterdam]

I don't see how NSindex is relevant anyway? It gives no information other than the text of the issue (which The Chuck would also have had access to without looking at NSindex, obviously), the effect line (which actually wasn't what The Chuck cited as a reason to expect an increase in Weaponization or Arms Manufacturing), and a link to my site (which currently says "-645.46 to +305.94 Industry: Arms Manufacturing (mean -40.6725), +0 to +0.24 Weaponization (mean +0.0039)" on this subject, so doesn't provide any strong reason to expect these outcomes - by the way, I purged it so that future data will reflect the change to the issue).

Maybe The Chuck meant something more along the lines of "I forgot which option number I picked, but NSindex says it's option 1" rather than "I used NSindex to decide which option to pick".

[ModCave1]

Bone To Pick #728

Apparently "the state confiscates all corpses to use the organs and bones for "science" brought DOWN authoritarianism and extremism??
“What you people are failing to see is the enormous social resource,” mentions morbid mortician Sheng-ji Yang in a monotone. “Bones can be turned to human ivory, skin can be tanned into good leather, and trace elements reclaimed for state industry. Indeed, it should be seen as every citizen’s final duty to go into the recycling processing centre, and become one with the People’s economy!”

Authoritarianism
milliStalins V 2.0%

Ideological Radicality
Paul-Nader Subjective Decentrality Index V 0.67%

This game is really confusing sometimes...

[Mod Cave]

#772: Do You Have Artistic License?

2. “Don’t listen to this laissez-faire claptrap,” sneers consumer advocate @@RANDOMNAME@@, discreetly shoveling vol-au-vents into @@HIS@@ pocket. “Occupational licensing protects consumers from incompetence and harm. We should be expanding the scope of licensing! Just look at the shoddy workmanship on these table decorations!”

When I answered this with Mod Cave, My authoritarianism, ideological radicality and income equality did not move.

When I answered the same way five minutes later with ModCave1, all three moved up as you would expect. The thing is, Mod Cave and ModCave1 have roughly equal Authoritarianism and Ideological Radicality, and ModCave1 even had higher income equality BEFORE answering the issue. So why isn't Mod Cave moving on these stats for almost a week of answering issues consistently? Ever since "forcing refugees to work in sewers" moved everything the wrong direction, my nation has been stuck at a standstill...

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Bone To Pick #728

Apparently "the state confiscates all corpses to use the organs and bones for "science" brought DOWN authoritarianism and extremism??
“What you people are failing to see is the enormous social resource,” mentions morbid mortician Sheng-ji Yang in a monotone. “Bones can be turned to human ivory, skin can be tanned into good leather, and trace elements reclaimed for state industry. Indeed, it should be seen as every citizen’s final duty to go into the recycling processing centre, and become one with the People’s economy!”

Authoritarianism
milliStalins V 2.0%

Ideological Radicality
Paul-Nader Subjective Decentrality Index V 0.67%

This game is really confusing sometimes...

There's two freedoms at play here. Civil rights fall, as people are losing bodily autonomy. Economic freedoms increase as industry is being allowed to work with human remains. See the opening post of this thread for how different freedoms overlapping could lead to overall freedoms moving in unexpected ways. The simple answer though is that the loss of bodily autonomy didn't actually change your nations already appalling civil rights, while the slight boost to economic freedom was a significant improvement on your current position.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

#772: Do You Have Artistic License?

2. “Don’t listen to this laissez-faire claptrap,” sneers consumer advocate @@RANDOMNAME@@, discreetly shoveling vol-au-vents into @@HIS@@ pocket. “Occupational licensing protects consumers from incompetence and harm. We should be expanding the scope of licensing! Just look at the shoddy workmanship on these table decorations!”

When I answered this with Mod Cave, My authoritarianism, ideological radicality and income equality did not move.

When I answered the same way five minutes later with ModCave1, all three moved up as you would expect. The thing is, Mod Cave and ModCave1 have roughly equal Authoritarianism and Ideological Radicality, and ModCave1 even had higher income equality BEFORE answering the issue. So why isn't Mod Cave moving on these stats for almost a week of answering issues consistently? Ever since "forcing refugees to work in sewers" moved everything the wrong direction, my nation has been stuck at a standstill...

Most stats aren't moved individually but are affected by a vast number of subcalculations. Two nations that appear to have identical Authoritarianism scores could have different stats underpinning those scores.

Each specific decision will look at the position on those hidden stats. In Mod Cave, the enforced standards didn't represent a shift in their current positions - they already had standards stricted than this. In ModCave1, a shift in position was represented, so the stat moved.

[Valentine Z]

Hello, my friends from this side of NationStates!

I'm not very sure how Issue #16 works, to be honest, so here goes!

#16 - Information Technology Workers Strike!

[Option 1] “We are the backbone of this country, and we demand a fair wage rise!” says union leader Barbie Norris. “I don’t think a 20% increase over two years is too much to ask. Unless the government forces employers to give us our due, we’ll shut this whole industry down! Let’s see how well Valentine Z’s economy manages without any Information Technology, huh?”

[Option 2] “We pay our employees very generous wages,” says employer representative Finn Urquhart. “Especially when you consider that without us, they’d be OUT ON THE STREET. Hear that, you scumbags? OUT ON THE STREET! Anyway, my point is, if you cave in, you make our entire industry uncompetitive. You can’t do that in the global marketplace. It’ll hurt the whole country. The best solution, economically speaking, would be to relax industrial laws and allow us to fire troublemakers on the spot.”

As someone who likes to keep the income equality high, and because I have had bad experience with Option 2, I obviously chose Option 1. Sometimes, it works in my favor, but this time, for Valentine Z, it happened again...

Income equality dropped, Rich got richer, and poor got slightly poorer.

I'm not sure what I am doing wrong, short of dismissing the issue entirely. For some nations that I am running, the Income Gap got smaller, but for here, it got slightly wider, which is recoverable within a few days, but still... why?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

It's working as intended. Issues that involve competing economic interests / freedoms often have varying effects according to nation.

Note that one of the betas will make this a more consistent issue.

[Valentine Z]

It's working as intended. Issues that involve competing economic interests / freedoms often have varying effects according to nation.

Note that one of the betas will make this a more consistent issue.

I see, thanks!

Oooh, the betas are still up? Mind if I have a link for that? I have forgotten about them, but I want to keep up-to-date with them.

EDIT: Found it! I thought it was more or less abandoned.

[Ourisio]

Issue#1138:Shock Tactic

The @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Resuscitation Council has noted that every year a vast number of preventable deaths occur because of lack of access to public AEDs (automated external defibrillators) and a dearth of competent first aiders able to use them.

"Put an AED in every bus stop, every train station, every supermarket and next to every ATM. Make first aid training mandatory in the later school years, then make people refresh their skills every ten years,” directs Dr. @@RANDOMNAME@@ of the Resuscitation Council, sipping his double-cream double-shot cappuccino. “Nations with poor access to AEDs have cardiac arrest survival rates of one in twenty. In nations with good access and training, three out of four patients will live. That’s got to be worth a little investment, right?”

That sounds overly complex and expensive, a bit like the good doctor’s premium beverage,” argues dietitian @@RANDOMNAME@@. “Personally, I like my health policies like I like my coffee: cheap and fast. Or was that how I like my men? I forget... Anyway, public health promotion is a smarter option. Prevention is better than cure. Restrict salty and fatty foods, and encourage healthy eating. That’ll hit the spot really efficiently. Like a good coffee. Or a good man.”

Health spending is a black hole,” moans tired-looking health economist @@RANDOMNAME@@, sipping at a plastic cup of nasty-smelling instant coffee. “If you help people live longer you just get older people with even more expensive and complicated medical problems. A good heart attack stops the oldies from being a burden on the economy. We ought to slash healthcare funding, and instead subsidise industries high in profit and saturated fat, then head out for an ice cream smoothie. Life’s too short! Or rather it isn’t, and that’s the problem.”

I selected Option 1; if I can't appeal my ding to civil liberties and my apparent undermining of my public healthcare program, I have to ask: how is asking for AEDs to be part of building code and training people to be capable in first aid with a refresher every ten years a more Orwellian/damaging to civil liberties action than trying to control what people do with their bodies? Ignoring that, cardiac events aren't always going to be directly correlated to diet and frankly, knowing your friends can help you if you break your arm will probably encourage people to be a bit less risk-averse at protests and the like. What is the logic being applied here??

Also is there a compendium of all issues and their effects? I'm trying to get Ourisio to the semi-Scandinavian 'citizen-soldier' state I envision and having to guess which option won't throw me out of whack is really putting a damper on my enthusiasm.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I selected Option 1; if I can't appeal my ding to civil liberties and my apparent undermining of my public healthcare program, I have to ask: how is asking for AEDs to be part of building code and training people to be capable in first aid with a refresher every ten years a more Orwellian/damaging to civil liberties action than trying to control what people do with their bodies?

It's not. An issue which controls what people can do with their bodies would be a greater infringement to civil liberties than this option is. Any reason you are making this comparison?

Ignoring that, cardiac events aren't always going to be directly correlated to diet and frankly, knowing your friends can help you if you break your arm will probably encourage people to be a bit less risk-averse at protests and the like. What is the logic being applied here??

Which effect are you viewing as illogical? You're not being clear here.

Also is there a compendium of all issues and their effects? I'm trying to get Ourisio to the semi-Scandinavian 'citizen-soldier' state I envision and having to guess which option won't throw me out of whack is really putting a damper on my enthusiasm.

Nothing official, though Trotterdam runs a site that compiles and logs effects across large numbers of nation, which is linked and discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=440593

It's an impressive bit of software, as far as I can tell, but is not monitored, endorsed or verified by the NationStates staff.

[Ballpit]

I’ve been using a guide to help solve my issues on a couple of my nations to focus on stats, but sometimes the guide says my pizza delivery, for instance, should go up, when it in fact goes down.

I can think of two reasons why that may be:
1) the guide may be a bit outdated, which is fine, but it’s still helpful
2) my pizza delivery sector was already so high that even when the guide said it would go up, it still went down.

For reference, the nations in question are Ballpit and Ballpit Mothership on which I am fostering my stats.

Can anyone help me understand why they might be going down instead of up?

Cheers!
~Ballpit

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I’ve been using a guide to help solve my issues on a couple of my nations to focus on stats, but sometimes the guide says my pizza delivery, for instance, should go up, when it in fact goes down.

I can think of two reasons why that may be:
1) the guide may be a bit outdated, which is fine, but it’s still helpful
2) my pizza delivery sector was already so high that even when the guide said it would go up, it still went down.

For reference, the nations in question are Ballpit and Ballpit Mothership on which I am fostering my stats.

Can anyone help me understand why they might be going down instead of up?

Cheers!
~Ballpit

This thread isn't for verifying the accuracy of any guides.

If there are specific issues where the story would have led you to expect a certain stat change which didn't happen, then report it here. Of course, also be sure to read the FAQ in the first post of this thread first.

[Alanis Star]

Issue 497, Option 1.

“Everything is stacked in Clarissa’s Land of Happiness and Cheers’s favour,” complains Sven Rodriguez, head of the chamber of commerce in the second largest city of Alanis Star, while literally turning green with envy. “We are losing our brightest minds, our trade contracts, our cultural presence, and even our political voice to the capital. To keep all of Alanis Star competitive, I urge you to pass legislation spreading industry and jobs across the country. The government should follow suit as well and distribute its apparatus across all the cities of our country. We’re all Valentians, how about some recognition of that?”

Andddd this decreased the Income Equality.

Distribute... you mean like to the rest of the country, right? So why in Heaven's Name does this happen?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Issue 497, Option 1.

“Everything is stacked in Clarissa’s Land of Happiness and Cheers’s favour,” complains Sven Rodriguez, head of the chamber of commerce in the second largest city of Alanis Star, while literally turning green with envy. “We are losing our brightest minds, our trade contracts, our cultural presence, and even our political voice to the capital. To keep all of Alanis Star competitive, I urge you to pass legislation spreading industry and jobs across the country. The government should follow suit as well and distribute its apparatus across all the cities of our country. We’re all Valentians, how about some recognition of that?”

Andddd this decreased the Income Equality.

Distribute... you mean like to the rest of the country, right? So why in Heaven's Name does this happen?

Made some changes to that issue's stats, shouldn't happen in future.

[Alanis Star]

Sweet, thanks!

As of now, no worries... I know my way around on getting it back. Trying to break my streak of poor choices.

[Australian rePublic]

How in the fudge does 85.2 increase authoritarianism?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

How in the fudge does 85.2 increase authoritarianism?

There's competing economic freedoms here. On the one hand, there's the right to work without restriction. On the other, there's the right to own your intellectual property, and the right of corporate and private individuals to claim ownership of non-physical things.

The net result is that authoritarianism can rise OR fall.

Done some reweighting on it though, to up play the pro-freedom aspects in the stats.

[Merni]

I selected issue 685, option 2 today on this nation, and got this:

The Talking Point

Both diets and economic output are growing leaner with recent restrictions to free trade.

Recent Headlines
(snip)
Recent Trends

Weather
Meters Of Sunlight 564.00 → 569.00 0.89%

Environmental Beauty
Pounds Of Wildlife Per Square Mile 3,429.60 → 3,446.42 0.49%

Health
Bananas Ingested Per Day 19.64 → 19.72 0.41%

Tourism
Tourists Per Hour 2,375.15 → 2,380.26 0.22%

Ideological Radicality
Paul-Nader Subjective Decentrality Index 15.26 → 15.29 0.20%

Rudeness
Insults Per Minute 5.78 → 5.79 0.17%

Authoritarianism
milliStalins 812.32 → 813.37 0.13%

Income Equality
Marx-Engels Emancipation Scale 73.90 → 73.99 0.12%

Average Income of Poor
Koras 40,389.21 → 40,415.40 0.06%

Average Income of Rich
Koras 54,653.46 → 54,622.07 0.06%

Averageness
Average Standardized Normality Scale 39.74 → 39.71 0.08%

Employment
Workforce Participation Rate 52.44 → 52.37 0.13%

Death Rate
Bus Surprisal Index 19.88 → 19.85 0.15%

Economy
Krugman-Greenspan Business Outlook Index 21.67 → 21.56 0.51%

Obesity
Obesity Rate 3.71 → 3.69 0.54%

Economic Freedom
Rand Index 19.67 → 19.56 0.56%

Industry: Automobile Manufacturing
Henry Ford Productivity Index -24.25 → -24.45 0.82%

Industry: Retail
Shrinkwrap Consignment Productivity Index -31.83 → -32.14 0.97%

Industry: Pizza Delivery
Pepperoni Propulsion Productivity Index -25.80 → -26.20 1.6%

Industry: Cheese Exports
Mozzarella Productivity Index -9.74 → -10.04 3.1%

As you can see, the Talking Point said economic output is decreasing while the stats changes don't show that happening (Economy did decrease, but not Economic Output, which AFAIK is a different stat). And yes, I was on detail mode for the stats. Is this an error?

[Valentine Z]

Hmm, hopefully I am missing something, but this one!

Issue 541 - Spare the Whip, Spoil the Law

Option 4 - “Uh, speaking of voters...” mutters Sandy Berman, the Minister of Domestic Affairs. “Remember them? You’re all so focused on getting your own agendas passed that you’ve forgotten why we’re here in the first place! The voters didn’t send us here to squabble like screaming children about who didn’t support someone’s National Moose Empowerment Act! They want us to get things done, and they’ll bring home anyone who’s not pulling their weight. Recall elections will make those rebels the local whipping boys. Forget secret ballots, we need to SPREAD the word who voted for what - the electorate will send us the right people if we just give them a chance.”

This increased Political Freedom for this nation, that's good. But... it also decreased Integrity and increased Corruption.

I'm not sure about the latter part.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I selected issue 685, option 2 today on this nation, and got this:

The Talking Point

Both diets and economic output are growing leaner with recent restrictions to free trade.

Recent Headlines
(snip)
Recent Trends

Weather
Meters Of Sunlight 564.00 → 569.00 0.89%

Environmental Beauty
Pounds Of Wildlife Per Square Mile 3,429.60 → 3,446.42 0.49%

Health
Bananas Ingested Per Day 19.64 → 19.72 0.41%

Tourism
Tourists Per Hour 2,375.15 → 2,380.26 0.22%

Ideological Radicality
Paul-Nader Subjective Decentrality Index 15.26 → 15.29 0.20%

Rudeness
Insults Per Minute 5.78 → 5.79 0.17%

Authoritarianism
milliStalins 812.32 → 813.37 0.13%

Income Equality
Marx-Engels Emancipation Scale 73.90 → 73.99 0.12%

Average Income of Poor
Koras 40,389.21 → 40,415.40 0.06%

Average Income of Rich
Koras 54,653.46 → 54,622.07 0.06%

Averageness
Average Standardized Normality Scale 39.74 → 39.71 0.08%

Employment
Workforce Participation Rate 52.44 → 52.37 0.13%

Death Rate
Bus Surprisal Index 19.88 → 19.85 0.15%

Economy
Krugman-Greenspan Business Outlook Index 21.67 → 21.56 0.51%

Obesity
Obesity Rate 3.71 → 3.69 0.54%

Economic Freedom
Rand Index 19.67 → 19.56 0.56%

Industry: Automobile Manufacturing
Henry Ford Productivity Index -24.25 → -24.45 0.82%

Industry: Retail
Shrinkwrap Consignment Productivity Index -31.83 → -32.14 0.97%

Industry: Pizza Delivery
Pepperoni Propulsion Productivity Index -25.80 → -26.20 1.6%

Industry: Cheese Exports
Mozzarella Productivity Index -9.74 → -10.04 3.1%

As you can see, the Talking Point said economic output is decreasing while the stats changes don't show that happening (Economy did decrease, but not Economic Output, which AFAIK is a different stat). And yes, I was on detail mode for the stats. Is this an error?

Economic output always decreases for this option, though for some nations the change may not be visibly reported, as even detailed stat reports leave out changes below a certain percentage threshold. Also, if a lot of the industries affected are already below 0 they'll just go further below 0, and that won't affect your visible economic output at all, but it will introduce a buffer that makes it harder to restore economic output.

From an in-character perspective, assume that output is falling, but that the metrics being measured by your stats don't capture that. It's a bit like in real life, prices could be rising across multiple areas but different indices that measure inflation could fail to capture that.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Hmm, hopefully I am missing something, but this one!

Issue 541 - Spare the Whip, Spoil the Law

Option 4 - “Uh, speaking of voters...” mutters Sandy Berman, the Minister of Domestic Affairs. “Remember them? You’re all so focused on getting your own agendas passed that you’ve forgotten why we’re here in the first place! The voters didn’t send us here to squabble like screaming children about who didn’t support someone’s National Moose Empowerment Act! They want us to get things done, and they’ll bring home anyone who’s not pulling their weight. Recall elections will make those rebels the local whipping boys. Forget secret ballots, we need to SPREAD the word who voted for what - the electorate will send us the right people if we just give them a chance.”

This increased Political Freedom for this nation, that's good. But... it also decreased Integrity and increased Corruption.

I'm not sure about the latter part.

That's intentional. Secret ballots exist for a reason, and getting rid of them will lead to more corruption generally. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-a-secret-b ... for-voting

[Valentine Z]

Hmm, hopefully I am missing something, but this one!

Issue 541 - Spare the Whip, Spoil the Law

Option 4 - “Uh, speaking of voters...” mutters Sandy Berman, the Minister of Domestic Affairs. “Remember them? You’re all so focused on getting your own agendas passed that you’ve forgotten why we’re here in the first place! The voters didn’t send us here to squabble like screaming children about who didn’t support someone’s National Moose Empowerment Act! They want us to get things done, and they’ll bring home anyone who’s not pulling their weight. Recall elections will make those rebels the local whipping boys. Forget secret ballots, we need to SPREAD the word who voted for what - the electorate will send us the right people if we just give them a chance.”

This increased Political Freedom for this nation, that's good. But... it also decreased Integrity and increased Corruption.

I'm not sure about the latter part.

That's intentional. Secret ballots exist for a reason, and getting rid of them will lead to more corruption generally. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-a-secret-b ... for-voting

Politics, you never cease to amaze me! Thanks for the answer, CWA! ^^

So err... if I can ask you for help, if this issue pops up again, what should I generally choose? I am aware that choosing either option all the time is not the way to be, so should I choose secret ballot more, or transparency?