[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[Menta Lee-IL]

re: Issue #960, Nobody Does It Better?

Opted for option #2:

2. “Are we really going to put the safety of our nation in the hands of this... thug?” questions secret agent James Bont while drinking a martini. “What the Webber Group fails to tell you is that many of their operatives were dishonorably discharged. They’re violent, averse to authority, and unpredictable. Not to mention they’re only loyal to a paycheck. @@LEADER@@, let me organize a training program for our less-experienced spies so they never get caught again.”

Result: a massive 0.65% decrease in my military spending (which is huge when my military spending is as high as it is).

I've become so frustated by this. How, logically speaking, in any way, shape or form, would retraining spies decrease a nation's military spending? There is zero sense to this. It's come to the point now that I almost don't want to answer issues because of these ludicrous effects that are so detrimental in so many of the issues that I answer. So many issues which logically speaking should have no effect on a nation's military spending end up decreasing it substantially. It's not fair.

It's next to impossible to raise my military spending yet incredibly easy to decrease it, and it's going to end up costing me my world #1 badge if this keeps up. I've been told "oh it's just background coding with your specific nation," well, how am I supposed to play this game fairly when there's so many unexpected consequences that are damaging my military. I might as well not play at all and just dismiss everything. /rant

[Candlewhisper Archive]

It's a complex situation.

Actually, this issue option is coded to increase military spending, and for most nations that is exactly what happens.

However, in your circumstance, the increase in cost of training was a drop in the ocean compared to your current spending, so the more significant effect was the overall shrinking of your economy from other knock on factors.

Take a close look and you'll see that while your defence forces dropped by 0.65%, every other area of government spending dropped by 0.67%.

So military spending was up-prioritised, but shrinkage of your overall economy led to budget shortfalls that hit across the board.

The simulation is really, really complex, and there's a load of emergent effects that aren't even obvious when you've got access and visibility of the whole game model. With nations at the extremes, unexpected and paradoxical effects are common.

This isn't something that is in any way "fixable" because it relates to the underlying nature of the game. From a personal point of view though, I find that beautiful complexity to be one of the BEST and most realistic things about nationstates. Just like in real life, declaring a new spending commitment doesn't always result in an increase in spending. Its a great big interlocking mess of factors that push and pull on each other, and there's a secret logic to it, but just as in the real world, it's way too complex for anyone to fully figure out from just living within it.

Specific to this issue, you've got to maintain the juggling act here - if you want to spend money on the military, make sure you've got money to spend. This is why in the real world the US military budget is bigger than the North Korean one: the latter may prioritise the military way more, but it's got a much smaller economy.

Of course, you're welcome to cry that it's not fair, and just refuse to answer an issue ever again. One thing I can guarantee there is that will be a surefire way to lose your much-coveted #1 slot, because sooner or later someone who is answering issues will overtake you.

[Menta Lee-IL]

Yes, I will continue to cry (such empathy) that it's unfair, because as you said, it's paradoxical and unexpected, and thus completely ludicrous because one cannot answer issues logically and expect logical outcomes. This leaves one at a total loss as to how the hell to play this game properly, and I guarantee that myself and thousands of others feel the same way. Thank you.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

You're welcome! Always glad to help.

[Lamaredia]

Issue #45, about baseball teams.

Quick question, I chose the option to financially support the teams, getting the blurb "Major cities shut down as their local sports team takes to the field every day.".

Why did obesity go up? Is it a play on the snacks going around in the stadium? I would otherwise think that supporting sports would get obesity down, with health going up again.

[The Free Joy State]

Issue #45, about baseball teams.

Quick question, I chose the option to financially support the teams, getting the blurb "Major cities shut down as their local sports team takes to the field every day.".

Why did obesity go up? Is it a play on the snacks going around in the stadium? I would otherwise think that supporting sports would get obesity down, with health going up again.

Basically, yes. It's because the sports' fan seems perhaps more enthused by the "soda, popcorn and hotdogs" than the actual sport. Also, while professional sports players will be fit, the option indicates that most of the fans will be eating the food and watching them on TV and in stadiums (which isn't great for health).

The change is actual fairly small for obesity, 3.20 to 3.21 (or 0.31%). So, if you pick options that are good for health in future, you should be able to undo it.

[Shen Yun]

698.4 resulted in a science decrease. Why would banning my citizens from owning guns cause this?

[The Free Joy State]

698.4 resulted in a science decrease. Why would banning my citizens from owning guns cause this?

Scientific Advancement is a secondary statistic, which is impacted by a number of other stats that all feed into each other, as well as reacting with your own individual nation's statistics. This means that secondary statistics can vary a little; but this is well within the boundaries of the normal.

If it helps, in-character, you could think of it that ballistics labs and firearm manufacturers have shut-down, resulting in research not being undertaken, and causing a small dip in your scientific advancement.

[Kromi]

Issue #37,
Traffic Cops Needed on Information Superhighway?

Option #2,
"Well, I AM saying we should block out that filth," says a man in a dark hat, stepping from the shadows. "If people want to use the internet, they can view our government-approved sites. Those are swell."

Result,
"The country has unplugged its internet connection to prevent subversive content."
No internet is enacted.

Experience,
I'm frustrated, I have encountered this once when I joined nationstates. At that time, I wanted to remove it so badly. I did, and I encountered this issue again. I picked the same option and I got frustrated again. I waited for months to remove it, Only to enact it again.

Question,
Why was no internet enacted? I thought it meant information permitted by the goverment is allowed. It said "If people want to use the internet, they can view our government-approved sites.".

[The Free Joy State]

Issue #37,
Traffic Cops Needed on Information Superhighway?

Option #2,
"Well, I AM saying we should block out that filth," says a man in a dark hat, stepping from the shadows. "If people want to use the internet, they can view our government-approved sites. Those are swell."

Result,
"The country has unplugged its internet connection to prevent subversive content."
No internet is enacted.

Experience,
I'm frustrated, I have encountered this once when I joined nationstates. At that time, I wanted to remove it so badly. I did, and I encountered this issue again. I picked the same option and I got frustrated again. I waited for months to remove it, Only to enact it again.

Question,
Why was no internet enacted? I thought it meant information permitted by the goverment is allowed. It said "If people want to use the internet, they can view our government-approved sites.".

If it allows only government-approved sites, technically, you don't have the internet (which is a worldwide web); you have a local intranet, where citizens can access local websites and government-controlled sites only.

The issue is working as intended.

EDIT: Currently, we can't differentiate between no internet and government-controlled intranet in our policies. It would be possible to add a policy (if only a backstage one), if there was a sufficient call for it in our issue base. Right now, I don't think there is.

[The Papal Republics]

Why would 251.2 cause my economy to contract by nearly 11 percent?

[ROFLOLMAO LAND]

I know this choice typically gives a huge impact to your economy, but maybe too big here? Issue 490 Choice 1 took my economy down from 99.70 to 50.67. Govt spending was only 36.7% of GDP, and business subsidies were only 17% of that. Also crime went from 1.93 to 17. Pretty god dam sure that part is wrong atleast.

Again, idk, not a developer. Maybe I was getting too greedy with decresing my govt size.

[The Marsupial Illuminati]

Why would 251.2 cause my economy to contract by nearly 11 percent?

This is not at all unusual.

I know this choice typically gives a huge impact to your economy, but maybe too big here? Issue 490 Choice 1 took my economy down from 99.70 to 50.67. Govt spending was only 36.7% of GDP, and business subsidies were only 17% of that. Also crime went from 1.93 to 17. Pretty god dam sure that part is wrong atleast.

Again, idk, not a developer. Maybe I was getting too greedy with decresing my govt size.

Oh, god! The stat changes for that option are horrible.

My fellow editor, Candlewhisper Archive, is currently updating the stat effects of old issues so that they will be consistent with the stat changes of modern issues. This is because the stat effects of old issues tend to be more extreme. Currently, CWA is at Issue #432, and I am sure that he will get to #490 in the near future.

[ROFLOLMAO LAND]

and it will apply retroactively?

[The Marsupial Illuminati]

and it will apply retroactively?

No. I'm really sorry; those stat changes really suck.

[ROFLOLMAO LAND]

Well regardless, even if so, is it possible the currently programmed effects malfunctioned? I still feel its larger then it should be.

[The Super Knife]

Issue #817 Back-Alley Blues

Abortion was banned in my country, but I chose option #2.

2. "I can certainly see why Miss McCormack would feel like drastic measures were her only option," notes self-professed moderate pro-life advocate, Jedson Dumphy. "Fortunately, I have a solution that can't fail to please all y'all folks. We'll permit it, only for very specific exceptions: for victims of legitimate, proven non-consensual sex or when the host-mother will certainly die without treatment, up to a nine-week gestation period, and with permission of the baby's father."

I expected the abortion ban to be repealed, but it was not. The abortion ban remained in place even thought the issue says we are now allowing it under specific circumstances.

[The Free Joy State]

Issue #817 Back-Alley Blues

Abortion was banned in my country, but I chose option #2.

2. "I can certainly see why Miss McCormack would feel like drastic measures were her only option," notes self-professed moderate pro-life advocate, Jedson Dumphy. "Fortunately, I have a solution that can't fail to please all y'all folks. We'll permit it, only for very specific exceptions: for victims of legitimate, proven non-consensual sex or when the host-mother will certainly die without treatment, up to a nine-week gestation period, and with permission of the baby's father."

I expected the abortion ban to be repealed, but it was not. The abortion ban remained in place even thought the issue says we are now allowing it under specific circumstances.

We discussed it backstage at the time and decided that this option does not warrant removing the abortion ban, due to the incredibly restrictive limits it places on abortion. It does give some nice gains to civil rights, but due to the practical difficulties in receiving an abortion -- not many women will know they're pregnant and be able to decide before nine weeks, many health issues do not appear before nine weeks and even a rape victim has to get consent of the foetus' father -- it's not a full reversal of the abortion ban.

Compare to 136.2, which appears similar -- allowing abortion for maternal health and in cases of rape -- but does not give additional caveats.

Well regardless, even if so, is it possible the currently programmed effects malfunctioned? I still feel its larger then it should be.

No, the changes you received are exactly proportionate with their current programming. The issue's been highlighted backstage for the big issues' review.

[Ghost Land]

I just answered an issue on my main nation (60s Music) a few minutes ago that ticked me off. 762.3 caused all my industries to drop hugely except my pizza industry, which went up (not that I'm complaining about that one). More confusingly, why did my primitiveness drop? That option is supposed to bring your nation more so back-to-basics without the hectic 24/7 business cycle, isn't it?

My income also plummeted, and my tax rate increased significantly, reducing my disposable income from among the best it's been to among the worst.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I don't think 490 is likely to change that much. I've raised before how this issue's descriptions don't actually halve spending as promised, but actually just enact massive cuts of varying magnitudes. And honestly, ANY stat change that is based on reducing a stat by X% rather than by a fixed amount is going to have massively variable effects.

However we had long discussions about this many times, and the majority decision was that it should NOT be watered down into a fixed magnitude spending decrease, and SHOULD remain as a big percentage decrease in across the board spending. The only bit of the discussion where I got my way was to have it so that cuts in departments had knock on effects on crime, health, and so on.

But yeah, I've never been happy with this one, and I was on the losing side of the argument to change it. However, we're a different editing team now with different game design philosophies, so it may be acceptable to revisit this discussion.

[Jutsa]

490's been wonderful for my nation (though I must agree that it is very overly-drastic change even if I do like that).

[Ghost Land]

^ When did anybody mention 490? The issue I mentioned in my post was 762.

Another one from the same nation just now that made me mad: 177.1 just almost doubled my ideological radicality and caused a 10% drop in averageness, even though it reintroduced elections and removed my autocracy. Democracy is a lot less radical than a dictatorship, no?

Now I'm down to level 29 on that nation even after busting my balls and getting up to level 31.

[The Free Joy State]

^ When did anybody mention 490? The issue I mentioned in my post was 762.

Another one from the same nation just now that made me mad: 177.1 just almost doubled my ideological radicality and caused a 10% drop in averageness, even though it reintroduced elections and removed my autocracy. Democracy is a lot less radical than a dictatorship, no?

Now I'm down to level 29 on that nation even after busting my balls and getting up to level 31.

I think CWA was responding to the query of Roflolmao Land.

I'm afraid it seems we may have missed your query.

With #177.1, averageness and political radicality are both secondary stats that are impacted by a huge number of stats.

Averageness can be impacted by an awful lot, because there are a huge amount of stats that interact to move it, and I really wouldn't read too much into it. Your nation just became a little more remarkable.

As for political radicality, that tends to rise whenever there has been a dramatic alteration in political freedoms or civil rights. Changing from autocracy to democracy is a pretty dramatic change.

Now, on to 762.

I just answered an issue on my main nation (60s Music) a few minutes ago that ticked me off. 762.3 caused all my industries to drop hugely except my pizza industry, which went up (not that I'm complaining about that one). More confusingly, why did my primitiveness drop? That option is supposed to bring your nation more so back-to-basics without the hectic 24/7 business cycle, isn't it?

My income also plummeted, and my tax rate increased significantly, reducing my disposable income from among the best it's been to among the worst.

There's nothing unusual with your economic effects. You closed all your businesses at weekends and evenings, which reduced your economy dramatically.

Primitiveness is kind of unreliable, because it's another secondary stat with a huge number of things that impact it and while some of the economic effects could make your society more primitive, a calmer and kinder pace of life could make your society less primitive.

As for the tax rate, the tax model is a known limitation in the simulation. It's explained in the OP of this thread:

"Why didn't tax / unemployment / black market do what I expected it to?"

NS uses a complex model to calculate a lot of things, which can lead to counter-intuitive results.

- Why didn't tax fall when spending was described as reducing (or why didn't it rise when spending was described as rising)?

The answer usually lies in your economic output.
The more economic output you have, the less %tax you need to support your spending.

Bear in mind that economic output is dependent on a lot of interacting factors. Sometimes an option will cause you to shrink your economy by more than you proportionally shrank your spending, causing a tax rise to support the same spending. Sometimes it won't. Often different things will happen to different nations faced with the same issue choice.

- Why didn't tax fall when an option described a corporation tax cut / sales tax cut?

The tax model of the game is very simplistic, and it basically abstracts all spending as income tax and doesn't take into account any idea of government borrowing, deficit spending or tax from sources other than income tax.

That gives us limited tools for simulation.

Corporation tax is rolled into business subsidisation, with lowering of corporate tax representing an effective business subsidisation, and a shifting of tax burden onto the income taxpayer.

Sales tax and VAT, meanwhile, move income tax inversely, as raising more revenue from these forms of taxation decreases the burden on income tax, and vice versa.

This isn't entirely satisfactory, of course, as it means that the descriptions of "Freedom From Taxation" on the graphs aren't accurate, but it's reflective of how the game engine is written and of the simulation's limitations. It basically isn't possible to have burden of taxation and income tax move in opposite directions, as in the simulation all measured tax = income tax.

[Ghost Land]

-snip-

Thank you very much for the information.

I'm still disappointed about dropping to level 29 when I used to be a 31 - it's hard to earn challenge points when you're at a lower level and can't beat as many people!

Also, why do so many issues make several-percent impacts in either direction on my pizza industry on that nation, even issues that have nothing to do with pizza whatsoever? This has been going on since long before I got the top 1% trophy, and up until recently, cheese was my biggest industry (funny because cheese is an ingredient on pizza), so that's not it either.

[The Free Joy State]

-snip-

Thank you very much for the information.

I'm still disappointed about dropping to level 29 when I used to be a 31 - it's hard to earn challenge points when you're at a lower level and can't beat as many people!

Also, why do so many issues make several-percent impacts in either direction on my pizza industry on that nation, even issues that have nothing to do with pizza whatsoever? This has been going on since long before I got the top 1% trophy, and up until recently, cheese was my biggest industry (funny because cheese is an ingredient on pizza), so that's not it either.

I can only speak in general terms, without a specific issue in front of me, but -- due to the way the economic stats frequently interact with each other (the industries are partially secondary) -- it's possible for issues have knock-on effects on other industries.

However, think of it this way, if an RL leader decided to ban aeroplanes -- for example (which I'm only using as an illustrative example of unintended RL effects) -- it wouldn't only impact the airlines. It would impact the manufacturers of airplanes; it would impact the textile manufacturers who make the seat-covers, the people who provided the water that was sold on-board. It would also impact anyone who shipped anything by plane, including people who imported ingredients with which to make pizza, and so it goes on.

That's not to say that stats are always working perfectly. If there are ever any large or weird changes, or a fall where you were promised a rise in a specific industry (or vice versa), please do bring it to us.