[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[The United Chads]

Issue 195.1 significantly increased the averageness and decreased the ideological radicality of my nation, even though it eroded individual property rights that would generally be considered the norm. The reason why I selected it was to reaffirm the public ownership of all property that should exist in any pure socialist state like mine, a stance that would generally be considered ideologically radical. Was there some factor in this situation that I did not consider? If so, I would like to know what it was. Thank you.

Ideological Radicality is a secondary stat that looks at a whole bunch of numbers to say how average your nations approaches are on several metrics. It could move either way with this issue, depending on your starting position.

So in other words, since there were already no privacy rights or property rights in my country, and there were also almost no civil rights in my country, answering this issue in this way had a larger proportional effect on increasing my civil rights than it did on decreasing my privacy/property rights. This had the overall effect of reducing ideological radicality. Is that a good assessment?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=444845&p=34176509#p34176509


Prisoners somehow gain weight when I am feeding them very little. Thread linked shows the entire report.

Limited sim granularity, basically, correlating worsening health with rising obesity. Have fixed this by tweaking the stat effect, losing some other stuff, but also losing the narrratively discordant obesity gain.

Thanks for report.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

So in other words, since there were already no privacy rights or property rights in my country, and there were also almost no civil rights in my country, answering this issue in this way had a larger proportional effect on increasing my civil rights than it did on decreasing my privacy/property rights. This had the overall effect of reducing ideological radicality. Is that a good assessment?

Along those lines, sure.

[Lamaredia]

Nation: Lamaredia
Date: 12/06/2018
Issue: 1009

So, my civil rights went down when I chose the option that men shouldn't just expect women to do all the house work and cooking, did I miss something in the issue or is this a bug?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Nation: Lamaredia
Date: 12/06/2018
Issue: 1009

So, my civil rights went down when I chose the option that men shouldn't just expect women to do all the house work and cooking, did I miss something in the issue or is this a bug?

Civil Rights is a nebulous term, but in NS it broadly translates to "personal freedom from government control". This issue option forces men to help their wives, so it's an infringement of their liberties.

The wives, in turn, don't actually gain any liberties, even though we're making for a more equal society in general.

[Lamaredia]

Nation: Lamaredia
Date: 12/06/2018
Issue: 1009

So, my civil rights went down when I chose the option that men shouldn't just expect women to do all the house work and cooking, did I miss something in the issue or is this a bug?

Civil Rights is a nebulous term, but in NS it broadly translates to "personal freedom from government control". This issue option forces men to help their wives, so it's an infringement of their liberties.

The wives, in turn, don't actually gain any liberties, even though we're making for a more equal society in general.

Oh, I was sure it was just giving an incentive or making an ad campaign to get men to help more, guess I misread. Thanks!

[Nornavidr]

So, what exactly is Political Freedom supposed to represent? Just instituted sortition, this country, issue 360, just before 17:20 CEST (UTC+2), and my Political Freedom took a nosedive, 78->53.

So did my Ideological Radicality (23->16) and Rudeness (43->34). Authoritarianism is up (438->662), as are Averageness (32->39) and Corruption (0.52->0.59). And Civil Rights and Inclusiveness didn't budge, even though this drastically increases the amount of minorities in power, and virtually guarantees a 50/50 gender balance.

Is this based on the idea that one third of Political Freedom is the ability to vote (between two candidates, in a deep red/blue state, after central party committees and donors have determined who gets to run), and that a representative sample from the population is less representative than a typical member of congress?

As I'd expect Political Freedom to work, it would consist of:
Freedom of (Political) Speech - including freedom of the press, right to publish, right to express and endorse any political viewpoint -> not affected
Freedom of Assembly - right to gather, right to protest -> not affected
Freedom of Association - right to unite, right to pursue common goals -> not affected, although the power of special interest groups is rescaled to the size of the group they represent, rather than how loud they can get.
Representativeness - Government opinion tracks public opinion -> The entire point of sortition, guaranteed by impartial random sampling.
Free and Fair Elections - Everyone can vote, without repercussions, anyone can run, the state doesn't favour one party over another, and votes are tallied faithfully -> Replaced by a system with the same aims but a different method.

Is the ritual of symbolically exercising power over 1/500,000th of a seat really considered that much better than a 1 in 500,000 chance of being assigned a seat, regardless of political affiliation, and the near-certainty that someone like you will in fact get one?

Or is this just the effect of the "Autocracy" policy which gets instituted because "that just means you don't hold elections", but then gets evaluated like you have an actual autocrat in power?

[Luna Amore]

If you have sortition, by definition you have no voting rights. Thus sortition leads to less political freedoms.

[Nornavidr]

No, but if you have elections, you have no sortition rights. No minimum sortition age, no laws guaranteeing the eligibility of minorities for sortition, no laws describing the sortition process guaranteeing the process is fair, impartial, and not open to manipulation, no laws stipulating how those sortitioned are to be compensated for their service, how long they serve, or how they are to be brought up to speed, and no laws protecting them from retribution for taking decisions against unscrupulous interest groups. So, do I get dinged when I abolish sortition in favour of two-party election system, because I threw out all those sortition-related rights and freedoms?

It feels a bit like switching from petrol to electric and getting dinged on safety because my car now lacks a compliant fuel tank. You can argue which is safer, petrol or electric, but stating electric is ridiculously unsafe because it doesn't contain any measures protecting occupants against the dangers of volatile combustibles kind of misses the point. Why are voting rights important? Because they guarantee the proper operation of the elections, by which the people are guaranteed fair and trustworthy representation. Why are elections important? Because without them, we have no voting rights. I smell a circle.

[Luna Amore]

No, but if you have elections, you have no sortition rights. No minimum sortition age, no laws guaranteeing the eligibility of minorities for sortition, no laws describing the sortition process guaranteeing the process is fair, impartial, and not open to manipulation, no laws stipulating how those sortitioned are to be compensated for their service, how long they serve, or how they are to be brought up to speed, and no laws protecting them from retribution for taking decisions against unscrupulous interest groups. So, do I get dinged when I abolish sortition in favour of two-party election system, because I threw out all those sortition-related rights and freedoms?

It feels a bit like switching from petrol to electric and getting dinged on safety because my car now lacks a compliant fuel tank. You can argue which is safer, petrol or electric, but stating electric is ridiculously unsafe because it doesn't contain any measures protecting occupants against the dangers of volatile combustibles kind of misses the point. Why are voting rights important? Because they guarantee the proper operation of the elections, by which the people are guaranteed fair and trustworthy representation. Why are elections important? Because without them, we have no voting rights. I smell a circle.

If you have sortition, you don't have a say in your government via voting. It hurts your political rights.

Equality of outcome does not mean more freedom. If you have the right to run, to vote and be voted for, you have more political rights than a system that picks politicians out of a hat. By choosing sortition, you are valuing equality over freedom.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I'd note that the poster isn't alone in viewing sortition as being MORE democratic

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -democracy

However, I think that for the purposes of NS, sortition is less democratic because the metrics by which we measure and rank political freedom in the game system are ones which would label sortition as being less democratic and less free.

I absolutely agree that it's not clear cut IRL whether sortition is more or less politically free than representative democracy, but in NS, according to the criteria that the game has worked with from the beginning, reducing political freedoms is definitely correct for the simulation, and is not something that is going to change. IRL, I'm broadly with Luna in believing that sortition represent trading freedom for equality. However, we're no longer discussing technical game effects, we're discussing more deeply about possible views on a complex political question. Similar complex questions might ask if anarchy is "politically freer" than representative democracy, for example, but that would also lie outside the scope of this thread. There's a game model for poltiical freedom, just like there's a game model for civil rights, and it is those models rather than argument on definitions that sets the numerical movements of each issue option.

I'd therefore ask Nornavidr and any other players who disagree with the relative merits of sortition to not respond further in this thread, but to discuss it in Forum 7 or somewhere similar. As far as the game is concerned, the assigned game effects are correct for the simulation as it stands.

[Maalemzya]

“Carbon Copied” Issue 626.1 :

Allowing the upload of mind decreases civil rights ?

[Leutria]

“Carbon Copied” Issue 626.1 :

Allowing the upload of mind decreases civil rights ?

From that option:

“Oh and a license to cut up the brains of vict... uh... volunteers.”

Note the slip? Suggests your are approving some rather inhuman research.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Further telegram discussions on the topic of sortition have suggested to me that might be reasonable to add some increase in Inclusiveness to sortition-establishing issues. Will check over the activations, and add something along those lines.

[Maalemzya]

“Carbon Copied” Issue 626.1 :

Allowing the upload of mind decreases civil rights ?

From that option:

“Oh and a license to cut up the brains of vict... uh... volunteers.”

Note the slip? Suggests your are approving some rather inhuman research.

Oh ok, I thought I would give the choice to the population.

[Epicord]

My wealth gaps stat has been behaving oddly lately. It started when I picked option 1 on issue #615 leading to "agricultural employees work for peanuts", but my wealth gaps stat took a 40% decrease and income equality increased massively. After looking it over, I thought that maybe it made a little sense, since the issue said that the factory owner would buy the labor for a small discount, but the effect seemed way too big. After that I chose option 1 on issue #105, leading to "Corporations cut costs by taking away safety-features on their products", which also somehow boosted income equality massively and decreased wealth gaps. After that, I chose option 2 on issue #330, leading to "one-stop superstores divide and conquer family businesses", which decreased wealth gaps by 22% and increased income equality by 27%.

I know issues can sometimes have strange effects, but I really can't understand how my answers to all three of these issues caused such drastic increases in income equality and decreases in wealth gaps. Maybe my grasp on economics just sucks?

[Furryz]

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=444845&p=34176509#p34176509


Prisoners somehow gain weight when I am feeding them very little. Thread linked shows the entire report.

Limited sim granularity, basically, correlating worsening health with rising obesity. Have fixed this by tweaking the stat effect, losing some other stuff, but also losing the narrratively discordant obesity gain.

Thanks for report.

Can you say that again, but ....simpler? Explain it to me like I'm 5, please.

[Phydios]

Limited sim granularity, basically, correlating worsening health with rising obesity. Have fixed this by tweaking the stat effect, losing some other stuff, but also losing the narrratively discordant obesity gain.

Thanks for report.

Can you say that again, but ....simpler? Explain it to me like I'm 5, please.

The game can only get so detailed. Sometimes, this limit on detail can cause problems- think of using a sledgehammer to drive thumbtacks into a wall. The game was previously correlating bad health with high obesity, even though there are many ways to be unhealthy without being fat. It appears that the game can't perfectly model the right effects of starving your prisoners, but CWA has done his best with what he has. He slightly edited the stat effects of that option, losing some other effects in exchange for getting rid of the weird obesity gain.

Better?

[Furryz]

Can you say that again, but ....simpler? Explain it to me like I'm 5, please.

The game can only get so detailed. Sometimes, this limit on detail can cause problems- think of using a sledgehammer to drive thumbtacks into a wall. The game was previously correlating bad health with high obesity, even though there are many ways to be unhealthy without being fat. It appears that the game can't perfectly model the right effects of starving your prisoners, but CWA has done his best with what he has. He slightly edited the stat effects of that option, losing some other effects in exchange for getting rid of the weird obesity gain.

Better?

Better, thank you. Hopefully other food related issues like that wont raise obesity if you pick the lower food option.

[Reploid Productions]

One post has been deemed to be made in Bad Faith to denigrate and get a ride out of the editors rather than in the interest of healthy, constructive discussion, and it has been removed from the thread accordingly.

Remember folks, how you say things is every bit as important as what you are saying.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[West green Israel]

State: west green Israel
Time: right now.
Answer: 243.3. This answer side with the Atheists on the question of national religion.
Possible problem: My "National Religion" field has been opened. I currently marked it as Atheism, but that seem weird, especially considering the issues that check for national religion.

was that supposed to happen? does the system distinguish in any way between states that chose option 243.3, and states that opened the field via other options?

[The Free Joy State]

State: west green Israel
Time: right now.
Answer: 243.3. This answer side with the Atheists on the question of national religion.
Possible problem: My "National Religion" field has been opened. I currently marked it as Atheism, but that seem weird, especially considering the issues that check for national religion.

was that supposed to happen? does the system distinguish in any way between states that chose option 243.3, and states that opened the field via other options?

That's okay. We changed it, just yesterday, actually.

A lot of people -- including yours' truly -- accidentally picked the wrong option and were having to wait a long time for it roll around again.

Rather than cause people to wait, we've decided to make every option provide the chance to add a religion. Please see here for more info.

You can leave your field blank if you don't want to use it (although some nations have entered atheism), or alternatively, we can ensure that atheist nations don't get issues that really don't work.

[West green Israel]

State: west green Israel
Time: right now.
Answer: 243.3. This answer side with the Atheists on the question of national religion.
Possible problem: My "National Religion" field has been opened. I currently marked it as Atheism, but that seem weird, especially considering the issues that check for national religion.

was that supposed to happen? does the system distinguish in any way between states that chose option 243.3, and states that opened the field via other options?

That's okay. We changed it, just yesterday, actually.

A lot of people -- including yours' truly -- accidentally picked the wrong option and were having to wait a long time for it roll around again.

Rather than cause people to wait, we've decided to make every option provide the chance to add a religion. Please see here for more info.

You can leave your field blank if you don't want to use it (although some nations have entered atheism), or alternatively, we can ensure that atheist nations don't get issues that really don't work.

Thanks, I think that the second option is better. Aren't blank fields only put a placeholder name in the issues?

Are there currently any assurances that option 243.3 won't make me eligible to issues I wasn't supposed to get in the old system?

[The Free Joy State]

That's okay. We changed it, just yesterday, actually.

A lot of people -- including yours' truly -- accidentally picked the wrong option and were having to wait a long time for it roll around again.

Rather than cause people to wait, we've decided to make every option provide the chance to add a religion. Please see here for more info.

You can leave your field blank if you don't want to use it (although some nations have entered atheism), or alternatively, we can ensure that atheist nations don't get issues that really don't work.

Thanks, I think that the second option is better. Aren't blank fields only put a placeholder name in the issues?

Are there currently any assurances that option 243.3 won't make me eligible to issues I wasn't supposed to get in the old system?

If you leave the field blank, I can confirm (having checked using my testing issue) that you won't get any of the options that currently require you to have a named faith. In the options that currently don't require you to have a named faith but where the @@FAITH@@ macro is used -- which isn't many -- it will appear with a placeholder.

If you use Atheism, you will become elligible for the issues that are available for nations with a named faith. Although we endeavour to ensure that nations who are atheist cannot receive inapplicable issues, we can't guarantee that some haven't slipped through, and would always urge you to report any you find here.

*Late edit to point to the right thread

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

EDIT: Ignore this. I posted before reading the posts immediately before this...