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[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.

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The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 13886
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Mon May 07, 2018 8:35 pm

Kwomo wrote:I've looked through this thread, and apparently Free Speech counts as a civil right.
And a political freedom.
Also, it turns out that this is not the place to discuss this.
I would really like to know where I can raise this issue, because it's killing two of my nations, this one included. Also, there are a number of issues where it makes sense to only affect one, but it ends up affecting both.

If you want a specific issue, here's "Nazi Sympathizers Plan Rally," option 1: this both decreased civil rights and political freedoms.
Free speech, in the context of a political rally, should only affect political freedom. Doing otherwise is silly.


This is not a thread to discuss how you'd like effects to work. This is a thread to raise unusual effects on issues and receive answers.

With regards to this issue, it gives a strict dichotomy: free speech vs. compelled civilised speech. Restricting free speech (even with cause) will restrict civil rights by various levels depending on where you start. However, it's worth pointing out that your civil rights (both the ones visible to you and the ones visible to me backstage) are still very high, and it won't take long to recover them to previous levels.

The game's simulation of civil rights is basically, the less the government stops you doing what you want to do (going where you want, saying what you want, and marrying who you want) the better your nation's civil rights.

By the way, this is your first time interracting on the forums, so perhaps we got off to a bad start. But dismissing things as "silly" is not the most effective way to get people to help you.

Trotterdam wrote:Posting on behalf of someone else in my region.

Emerses just noted that #300 3 ("Why don't you just get rid of these new-fangled licenses and trust a parent's instincts?") failed to remove the Parental Licensing policy.

My own data concurs that it only sometimes removes this policy. In fact, it hasn't been seen removing the policy in a little over two weeks, making me wonder if a recent change to the issue accidentally broke it.


Oh, yep, I think I see how that happened.

Thanks for the report, Trotterdam. I'll get that fixed.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Mon May 07, 2018 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

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BigOstan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 111
Founded: Apr 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby BigOstan » Tue May 08, 2018 11:38 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Kwomo wrote:(...) it turns out that this is not the place to discuss this.
I would really like to know where I can raise this issue, because it's killing two of my nations, this one included.
(...)


This is not a thread to discuss how you'd like effects to work. This is a thread to raise unusual effects on issues and receive answers.

(...)


It's funny that he not only pointed this out himself, but also asked where should he take the discussion. I'm posting this because I want to second that question. It's directly related to unusual issue effects and you won't answer it. Instead Kwomo gets policed on his language and I get disallowed from bringing up the matter again.

The Free Joy State wrote:By the way, this is your first time interracting on the forums, so perhaps we got off to a bad start. But dismissing things as "silly" is not the most effective way to get people to help you.


I agree. Calling things 'silly' is a bad way to get help. But I think you'll also agree that dedicating a paragraph to one usage of the word 'silly' is a bad way to give it. We don't want to argue with you or annoy you. We just want an answer to our question, a link to the correct place in the forum would be enough.

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Daroso
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 11
Founded: Nov 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Daroso » Tue May 08, 2018 5:01 pm

Issue: I Spy a Diplomatic Crisis, #233.
Response: Diplomats in Daroso are furious at constant police surveillance, 3.
Unusual effect: Economic freedom went down. What's the correlation between embassies (a political and international institution) and economic freedom?
Thanks!

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Sanctaria
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7563
Founded: Sep 12, 2008
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sanctaria » Tue May 08, 2018 5:02 pm

Daroso wrote:Issue: I Spy a Diplomatic Crisis, #233.
Response: Diplomats in Daroso are furious at constant police surveillance, 3.
Unusual effect: Economic freedom went down. What's the correlation between embassies (a political and international institution) and economic freedom?
Thanks!

Also in that option: "We risk all sorts of trade sanctions, true, but it pays to be careful."
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Kwomo
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 4
Founded: Apr 30, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Kwomo » Tue May 08, 2018 5:13 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:By the way, this is your first time interracting on the forums, so perhaps we got off to a bad start. But dismissing things as "silly" is not the most effective way to get people to help you.


Right, sorry. I've been fed up with the twin correlation for so long with other alts, so I wrote that more in a fit of rage than with honest intentions. Thank you for keeping a cool head -- it helps to know it's not as arbitrary as it seems. Still frustrating for trying to split left-wing nations from democracies (both ways).

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Daroso
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 11
Founded: Nov 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Daroso » Tue May 08, 2018 5:15 pm

Sanctaria wrote:
Daroso wrote:Issue: I Spy a Diplomatic Crisis, #233.
Also in that option: "We risk all sorts of trade sanctions, true, but it pays to be careful."

Geez, you really have to read the fine print on these. Thanks

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The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 13886
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Tue May 08, 2018 8:09 pm

Kwomo wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:By the way, this is your first time interracting on the forums, so perhaps we got off to a bad start. But dismissing things as "silly" is not the most effective way to get people to help you.


Right, sorry. I've been fed up with the twin correlation for so long with other alts, so I wrote that more in a fit of rage than with honest intentions. Thank you for keeping a cool head -- it helps to know it's not as arbitrary as it seems. Still frustrating for trying to split left-wing nations from democracies (both ways).


It's alright. I understand that players invest heavily in their nations. In the past, I've lost stats I've been working hard to build and it is frustrating. Just to mention that, if the issue (or any issue) comes up again, and you're worried about the effect on your stats, feel free to dismiss.

Contrary to longstanding rumour, dismissing an issue will not effect your nation's stats in any way. There is no penalty to your nation for dismissing issues.

In fact, there are some issues that I dismiss because there is no option that works for the way I choose to play my nation.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Tue May 08, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

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Leporidaeland
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Mar 03, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

A Nude Day, A New Awakening issue

Postby Leporidaeland » Wed May 09, 2018 10:05 am

Issue: A Nude Day, A New Awakening
Response: T-shirts displaying a photo of Leader performing the Full-Monty are selling out.
Unusual Effect: I gained the State Surveillance policy.
Last edited by Leporidaeland on Wed May 09, 2018 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Phydios
Minister
 
Posts: 2343
Founded: Dec 06, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Phydios » Wed May 09, 2018 10:14 am

Leporidaeland wrote:Issue: A Nude Day, A New Awakening
Response: T-shirts displaying a photo of Leader performing the Full-Monty are selling out.
Unusual Effect: I gained the State Surveillance policy.

I believe you should read the fourth spoiler in the first post of this thread.
Romans 1:18-2:29, Ephesians 2:1-10
But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! | Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. | It’s a wonder God didn’t lose His temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, He embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on His own, with no help from us!

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Omnistria
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Sep 03, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Public Transport ok?

Postby Omnistria » Wed May 09, 2018 5:01 pm

- Omnistria
- 2018-05-10
- Reclaim The Streets! (102)

I chose option 3 and enacted the No Automobiles policy. Moreover the Bike Lane banner and the Railworks banner were unlocked.

What happened is tht Public Transport fell by 0,11%. Does not seem ok to me since I now have no cars on the streets.

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The Marsupial Illuminati
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 1318
Founded: Jul 24, 2016
Free-Market Paradise

Postby The Marsupial Illuminati » Wed May 09, 2018 7:31 pm


Deleted by The Marsupial Illuminati on Sun May 32, 2008 13:11 pm, deleted 1 time in total.
Last edited by The Marsupial Illuminati on Sun May 27, 2018 5:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Omnistria
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Sep 03, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Omnistria » Wed May 09, 2018 11:25 pm

The Marsupial Illuminati wrote:
Omnistria wrote:- Omnistria
- 2018-05-10
- Reclaim The Streets! (102)

I chose option 3 and enacted the No Automobiles policy. Moreover the Bike Lane banner and the Railworks banner were unlocked.

What happened is that Public Transport fell by 0,11%. Does not seem ok to me since I now have no cars on the streets.

Yeah, those stats are definitely screwed up. Thank you for the helpful report; I will bring this up backstage.


Thanks a bunch!

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The Marsupial Illuminati
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 1318
Founded: Jul 24, 2016
Free-Market Paradise

Postby The Marsupial Illuminati » Thu May 10, 2018 1:44 am


Deleted by The Marsupial Illuminati on Sun May 32, 2008 13:11 pm, deleted 1 time in total.
Last edited by The Marsupial Illuminati on Sun May 27, 2018 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 22291
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu May 10, 2018 2:42 am

Honestly, I'm not sure now why I took it off in the first place. Ah well, fixed now.
editors like linguistic ambiguity more than most people

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Dungeon
Secretary
 
Posts: 30
Founded: Nov 23, 2017
Corporate Police State

Highway Robbery by the Book

Postby Dungeon » Thu May 10, 2018 6:33 am

Hello, I don't usually post about unexpected results, but I received an outcome that seemed precisely opposite of the expected results, so I thought I'd post in case there was something going on.

Issue #988
Highway Robbery by the Book

Nation: Dungeon

Date: May 10

I chose the 4th option:
“Daddy, who let the poors out onto the front lawn?” questions Richard Kensington-Wellington III, whose famed millionaire misanthropic father is currently turning on the garden sprinklers. “The working classes should have never been allowed to study in the first place. I mean, what good does it do them? It only fills them with ridiculous aspirations above their natural station. It’s quite obvious after all that only the elite of society should be educated. All of my friends and their daddies say so! The common folk would be happier doing something useful with their lives!”

The outcome was a 13% decrease in wealth gaps, and an attendant rise in income equality.

I apologize if there's some simple explanation for this being rational outcome, that I'm just overlooking. I'd be interested to learn what that may be.

Thanks you for you time and patience.

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Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 22291
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu May 10, 2018 6:56 am

Dungeon wrote:Hello, I don't usually post about unexpected results, but I received an outcome that seemed precisely opposite of the expected results, so I thought I'd post in case there was something going on.

Issue #988
Highway Robbery by the Book

Nation: Dungeon

Date: May 10

I chose the 4th option:
“Daddy, who let the poors out onto the front lawn?” questions Richard Kensington-Wellington III, whose famed millionaire misanthropic father is currently turning on the garden sprinklers. “The working classes should have never been allowed to study in the first place. I mean, what good does it do them? It only fills them with ridiculous aspirations above their natural station. It’s quite obvious after all that only the elite of society should be educated. All of my friends and their daddies say so! The common folk would be happier doing something useful with their lives!”

The outcome was a 13% decrease in wealth gaps, and an attendant rise in income equality.

I apologize if there's some simple explanation for this being rational outcome, that I'm just overlooking. I'd be interested to learn what that may be.

Thanks you for you time and patience.



Thanks for the report.

I agree that it is entirely against the story of the issue for wealth gaps to decrease.

However, the explanation is basically that the simulation is limited.

Wealth gaps are worked out primarily as a function of how free your economy is. Any measure that reduces economic freedom (for example restricting the education market to a specific group of people, and creating an environment where economic mobility is denied by statute, as in this issue) will reduce the wealth gap, even if the specific story of how economic freedom falls isn't consistent with a drop in wealth gaps. We've got no tools to directly move wealth gaps - it's a knock-on calculation from other changes.

So unfortunately this unexpected effect will remain as it is.
editors like linguistic ambiguity more than most people

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Dungeon
Secretary
 
Posts: 30
Founded: Nov 23, 2017
Corporate Police State

Postby Dungeon » Thu May 10, 2018 7:10 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Dungeon wrote:Hello, I don't usually post about unexpected results, but I received an outcome that seemed precisely opposite of the expected results, so I thought I'd post in case there was something going on.

Issue #988
Highway Robbery by the Book

Nation: Dungeon

Date: May 10

I chose the 4th option:
“Daddy, who let the poors out onto the front lawn?” questions Richard Kensington-Wellington III, whose famed millionaire misanthropic father is currently turning on the garden sprinklers. “The working classes should have never been allowed to study in the first place. I mean, what good does it do them? It only fills them with ridiculous aspirations above their natural station. It’s quite obvious after all that only the elite of society should be educated. All of my friends and their daddies say so! The common folk would be happier doing something useful with their lives!”

The outcome was a 13% decrease in wealth gaps, and an attendant rise in income equality.

I apologize if there's some simple explanation for this being rational outcome, that I'm just overlooking. I'd be interested to learn what that may be.

Thanks you for you time and patience.



Thanks for the report.

I agree that it is entirely against the story of the issue for wealth gaps to decrease.

However, the explanation is basically that the simulation is limited.

Wealth gaps are worked out primarily as a function of how free your economy is. Any measure that reduces economic freedom (for example restricting the education market to a specific group of people, and creating an environment where economic mobility is denied by statute, as in this issue) will reduce the wealth gap, even if the specific story of how economic freedom falls isn't consistent with a drop in wealth gaps. We've got no tools to directly move wealth gaps - it's a knock-on calculation from other changes.

So unfortunately this unexpected effect will remain as it is.


I see, that makes sense now. Thank you for the clarification, it was very helpful, and I now understand much better how that stat, and others like it, function.

I appreciate the response.

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Dwarfpolis
Envoy
 
Posts: 262
Founded: Oct 12, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Dwarfpolis » Thu May 10, 2018 10:22 am

Should 860.4 decrease cheerfulness, or was it because of charmlessness rising?
You have read this siggy just so you could know that Trotterdam is a real Left-Leaning College State and a real hero

Ok this austerity bit will hurt my intelligence stat a little and this industrial option will bite the environment but it doesn't seem anything to bAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
https://i.imgur.com/KwZK4Mm.jpg

When you finally got out of your good stat depression and the mods will boost your HDI and lifespan into 91+ with the new beta
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Ransium
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 6620
Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ransium » Thu May 10, 2018 10:28 am

Dwarfpolis wrote:Should 860.4 decrease cheerfulness, or was it because of charmlessness rising?


Working as intended, the editor’s exact reasoning was: “People don't typically enjoy blowing up, and this option needs a downside.” And not much else fit.
Last edited by Ransium on Thu May 10, 2018 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest from March 20th, 2007 to August 19, 2020.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445,GA 463,GA 465,
Issues Editor January 20th, 2017 - November 23rd, 2020.
Author of 27 issues. First editor of 44.
Moderator November 10th 2017 - November 23rd 2020.

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First Nightmare
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Apr 27, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby First Nightmare » Thu May 10, 2018 2:59 pm

After answering issue 61, option 1, I gained the Feudalism policy.
Now I have both the Feudalism policy... and the Socialism policy. :rofl:

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Ab Humanitatis Scientiam
Envoy
 
Posts: 203
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Ab Humanitatis Scientiam » Thu May 10, 2018 3:11 pm

First Nightmare wrote:After answering issue 61, option 1, I gained the Feudalism policy.
Now I have both the Feudalism policy... and the Socialism policy. :rofl:


**adjusts red turtleneck**

I believe feudal socialism is discussed by Marx in Chapter 3 of the Manifesto, although critically. The gist is that the French aristocracy tried appealing to the masses with various promises in order to head off the threat of its imminent displacement by the rapidly rising bourgeoisie. Probably not "socialism" is the truly egalitarian sense, but of a sort.

At any rate, the concept exists and is valid. Apparently you've stumbled upon its NS-Verse manifestation.

Trotterdam wrote:... not necessarily for the workers' benefit...


Yup.
Last edited by Ab Humanitatis Scientiam on Thu May 10, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Trotterdam
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9181
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Thu May 10, 2018 3:12 pm

First Nightmare wrote:After answering issue 61, option 1, I gained the Feudalism policy.
Now I have both the Feudalism policy... and the Socialism policy. :rofl:
"Socialism" in NationStates really just means "planned economy", not necessarily for the workers' benefit...

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Trotterdam
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9181
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Thu May 10, 2018 5:02 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Today, I want to talk about the relationship between feudalism and emigration.

When looking at my list, I was surprised to find that #605 1 is one of the only two options in the game that removes No Emigration, despite the issue actually saying nothing about that, the option's primary purpose being to remove Feudalism.

On closer inspection, I found that #61 1, the sole option to give the Feudalism policy, also gives No Emigration. So, this gives the impression that the Feudalism is interpreted as automatically implying No Emigration, and so the latter is gained and lost with the former even when the issue doesn't explicitly talk about it.

However, there are two problems with this.

First, I disagree that Feudalism should actually imply No Emigration. Yes, serfs had little freedom of movement, but a feudal society doesn't consist only of serfs. Nobles and yeomen were also important parts of medieval society, and they generally had somewhat more mobility. Even serfs often had some sort of recourse, though it tended to involve paying their lord through the nose for the priviledge of leaving his service.

Second, the other options which remove Feudalism (#710 4, #894 3, #940 5) don't affect No Emigration, so this policy, whether I agree with it or not, is not applied consistently.
Hello?

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Yahlia
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 8
Founded: May 10, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Yahlia » Thu May 10, 2018 7:07 pm

I just received an answered Issue 358 - Not Another Teen Pregnancy: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88#358
I chose to go with option 6, which resulted in prioritized sex education, free contraception, and abortions on demand, and my social conservatism rose. That sounds like a mistake to me, unless I'm missing something

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Ab Humanitatis Scientiam
Envoy
 
Posts: 203
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Ab Humanitatis Scientiam » Thu May 10, 2018 7:49 pm

Yahlia wrote:I just received an answered Issue 358 - Not Another Teen Pregnancy: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88#358
I chose to go with option 6, which resulted in prioritized sex education, free contraception, and abortions on demand, and my social conservatism rose. That sounds like a mistake to me, unless I'm missing something


Read the description of "social conservatism" very carefully. In the NS-verse, social conservatism simply means "tending to intervene in citizens private lives." Which is what #358.6 does -- it establishes a government program (sex ed, contraception, abortion-on-demand) designed to intervene and stop (young) citizens from doing something.

That it does so with means frequently ideologically associated with the political "left" IRL (sex ed, contraception, abortion-on-demand) is delightfully sneaky, but also probably legit.
Last edited by Ab Humanitatis Scientiam on Thu May 10, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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