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[ISSUE CHAIN] @@CAPITAL@@gate

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.

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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:56 pm

I think I'll pass on Dr. Amore, thank you.

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Phydios
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Postby Phydios » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:20 pm

Luna Amore wrote:Sorry, didn't mean to spoil.

If I were a surgeon, I'd use a machete.

Honestly, after almost a month of silence, I'm glad you did.
Romans 1:18-2:29, Ephesians 2:1-10
But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! | Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. | It’s a wonder God didn’t lose His temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, He embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on His own, with no help from us!

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:59 pm

So, I have almost all of the validities for #797 worked out, and they make a lot of sense when viewed in context, but there's a few details that I'm still missing. The following chains look like they should be possible, in that I don't see why they wouldn't be based on the option texts, but I haven't managed to sight anyone choosing that path:
#792 3 -> #795 1
#794 1 -> #797 4
#795 1 -> #797 6
#796 2 -> #797 6
#796 3 -> #797 7
(That is, for example, I am asking whether a nation choosing option 3 on #796 would then receive option 7 on #797, whether or not the nation then actually chooses that option.)
And also most paths -> #797 8. That option looks thematically like it should always be available regardles of previous choices, and all posted reports of #797 so far included it, but I've very rarely seen anyone actually choose it.

Since it's very hard to prove a negative, it would be pretty unproductive of me to continue looking for these using just my methods, when I'm sure the map I have now is mostly accurate aside from the above question marks (provided I didn't make another mistake...). But since I'd rather post a finished product, I first want to make one last prayer if the Powers That Be would be willing to bestow these grains of knowledge.

Naturally, player reports would also be useful, if someone actually chose the options listed and remembers seeing/not seeing the questioned followup, but we haven't been receiving a lot of information from that front lately.

EDIT: Hmm, I just saw #797 7 follow from #796 4 on Wasdee. I wasn't expecting that. I guess it's still being treated as dictatorial due to your past choice of #792 2 / #791 2 even though the point of #796 4 is to restore democracy?

Knowing the full issue text has helped me narrow down what's obvious and what I need to look for, but now the stuff I'm looking for is just raising more questions.

...No wait, I think the nation in question abolished democracy using #534 3 (which introduces sortition rather than dictatorship), which just happened to happen while the chain was ongoing, disrupting the narrative. Argh. This kind of stuff could mess up my other readings, too.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:14 am

As it's NoQ's chain, I'll leave it up to him to reveal if he wants to, feel free to TG him.

I think it's well known that we use individualised option validity checks, testing against yes/no flags. Up to NoQ whether he'd like to reveal those flags, or would rather let players discover things for themselves.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:44 am

On another note, I'm curious how close other people who have been working on this, like Phydios and Arceus Domains, think they are to a full understanding.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:23 pm

Well, here goes.

#789 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] @@CAPITALGATE@@
1. government spokespeople are working overtime trying to convince concerned citizens that @@LEADER@@ is not a crook [leads to #790]
2. government critics have noticed a lot of new neighbors with expensive surveillance equipment in their garages [leads to #791]
3. @@LEADER@@ is frequently seen begging critics to stop insulting the government [leads to #792]

#790 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] The Art Of The Distraction
1. @@LEADER@@ claims no responsibility for what @@LEADER@@'s government does [leads to #793]
2. the death glare has replaced the handshake as a national greeting [leads to #794]
3. those on @@LEADER@@'s rumored 'Enemies List' tend to disappear overnight [leads to #795]

#791 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] The Smoking Gun?
1. the government claims that @@LEADER@@'s political enemies literally take candy from babies [leads to #795]
2. the government operates on the idea that you can't be betrayed if you get your betrayals in first and fastest [leads to #796]
3. paranoia is the new normal [leads to #794]

#792 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] Why Can't We Be Friends?
1. politicians who misplace decimal points on expense reports are fired for gross incompetence [leads to #793]
2. several cabinet ministers have complained that @@LEADER@@ is giving them the evil eye [leads to #796]
3. nobody accepts @@LEADER@@'s dinner invitations anymore [leads to #795]

#793 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] Knock Knock. Who's There? Not You Anymore!
1. snap elections are called whenever there's a chance to increase @@LEADER@@'s majority [leads to #797]
2. a revolving door was recently installed at the entrance of the @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Capitol Building [leads to #797]
3. the entirety of @@LEADER@@'s administration can be crammed into a phone booth [leads to #797]
4. @@LEADER@@'s new office is 6 by 8 feet with steel walls and a barred door [leads to #797]

#794 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] Fear And Loathing In @@CAPITAL@@
1. citizens patriotically sing the government's praises while glancing nervously over their shoulder [leads to #797]
2. citizens who inform on their neighbors can trade government "loyalty points" for food and other prizes [leads to #797]
3. dissidents are often found dead with the very injuries @@LEADER@@ mentioned in recent press conferences [leads to #797]
4. the @@CAPITAL@@ Police often confuse their exploding pens for real ones [leads to #797]

#795 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] Lock Him Up!
1. critics of @@LEADER@@ literally can't find their head on their shoulders [leads to #797]
2. dissidents' perp walks are repeatedly shown during prime time television [leads to #797]
3. the government operates on a policy of compliance through intimidation [leads to #797]
4. the sword tends to be mightier than the pen in @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ politics [leads to #797]

#796 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] It's Dangerous To Go Alone!
1. propaganda posters remind citizens that 'opinions are treason' [leads to #797]
2. state media sings the praises of Greatest Hero Beloved Dear Leader @@LEADER@@ [leads to #797]
3. the nation's unofficial motto is "Fear Thy Neighbour" [leads to #797]
4. the government has an odd policy of calling snap elections at its lowest ebb of popularity [leads to #797]

#797 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] Yesterday's News
1. schoolchildren are taught to boo and hiss at @@LEADER@@'s name [end chain] [if Barry Maxman lived, and is still allowed to publish because you didn't ban non-state media with #796 2]
2. citizens are required by law to prominently display a portrait of @@LEADER@@ in their homes [end chain] [if Barry Maxman died, as can be achieved by #794 1 (disappearance), #794 3 (vigilante justice), #795 1 (public execution), #795 4 (rigged duel)]
3. citizens who don't display the @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ flag on their property are placed on a terrorist watch list [end chain] [if you blamed East Lebatuck using #790 2 or #791 3, leading to #794]
4. political cartoons depicting @@LEADER@@'s face on @@A@@ @@ANIMAL@@'s buttocks are selling like hotcakes [end chain] [if you didn't ban non-state media with #796 2]
5. state-controlled media is known for telling the truth... from a certain point of view [end chain] [if you banned non-state media with #796 2]
6. the nation is regarded as a paragon of democracy [end chain] [if you remain a democracy]
7. statues of @@LEADER@@ can be found on every street [end chain] [if you abolished democracy with #796 1, or seized power for yourself by firing most of your cabinet and not replacing them with one of #793 3, #793 4, #796 2, #796 3]
8. schools are forbidden to teach anything that might paint the government in a negative light [end chain] [always available]


Note that the state media and democracy flags can also be affect by issues outside the chain, so if you answer some of those after starting but before finishing the chain, it could complicate things. Otherwise, though, it seems likely that both having elections and allowing non-state media are required to be eligible for the chain's first issue.

The chain, if played to completion, always has four issues:

First issue: #789
Second issue: #790 or #791 or #792
Third issue: #793 or #794 or #795 or #796
Fourth and last issue: #797 (but with varying options)

Almost any combination is possible, except:
#790 doesn't lead to #796
#791 doesn't lead to #793
#792 doesn't lead to #794

Which options you get on #797 breaks down something like this:
#793 #794 #795 #796
1234 2 4 23 1 34 schoolchildren are taught to boo and hiss at @@LEADER@@'s name
1 3 1 4 citizens are required by law to prominently display a portrait of @@LEADER@@ in their homes
1234 citizens who don't display the @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ flag on their property are placed on a terrorist watch list
1234 1234 1234 1 34 political cartoons depicting @@LEADER@@'s face on @@A@@ @@ANIMAL@@'s buttocks are selling like hotcakes
2 state-controlled media is known for telling the truth... from a certain point of view
1234 1234 1234 234 the nation is regarded as a paragon of democracy
34 123 statues of @@LEADER@@ can be found on every street
1234 1234 1234 1234 schools are forbidden to teach anything that might paint the government in a negative light
This will mean 4 or 5 options at a time.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:36 pm

Good work!
Don’t pick a fight with me, I am proficient with the weapon to which all shall fall in NationStates... inactivity.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:35 pm

#796 3 -> #797 7 finally spotted on The Capital Coasts. Carefully screened to ensure no other intervening issues affected the presence of democracy.

Knowing what I'm looking for really does make finding it easier.

Still, it's going to be hard to confirm everything.

By the way, this was apparent for a while, but I'm pretty sure that the validity for qualifying for this issue include having both democracy and private media. You can ban either of those things during the chain (but probably not both on one playthrough), but they always need to start out legal.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:57 pm

Oh yeah, earlier today I spotted Riecham with one of those choice combinations that I though should be possible but hadn't confirmed before.

I think it's pretty clear what the requirements are, but I still have false negatives (I've never seen it yet, but I'm sure it's possible) on #794 1 -> #797 4, #795 1 -> #797 6, #793 3 -> #797 8, and #795 1 -> #797 8, and false positives (I've seen it, but that's probably because of non-chain issues messing with flags mid-story, and not intended chain design) on #796 1 -> #797 5 and #796 4 -> #797 7 (the latter of which I was paying enough attention to to identify the cause for, near-confirming that it's a false positive).

There's a pretty fine line between "I've never seen this, but it's probably still perfectly fine and just happens to be rare" and "I've seen this once, but that was probably a fluke and it won't happen again".

Maybe I should just edit the validities to what I expect them to be, even if I don't have proof yet, since by now I'm pretty confident my reasoning is sound.

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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:45 pm

FYI the problem with applying the death penalty policy effected issues in the chain. Thing may work differently now that things have been fixed.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:00 pm

Argh.

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Phydios
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Postby Phydios » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:08 pm

I went ahead and updated the OP with Trott's map of the chain. The old map with all the links is still saved on my computer, but it's got holes in it and little info on validities. Thanks a lot, Trott!
Romans 1:18-2:29, Ephesians 2:1-10
But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! | Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. | It’s a wonder God didn’t lose His temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, He embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on His own, with no help from us!

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:03 pm

Phydios wrote:I went ahead and updated the OP with Trott's map of the chain.
Hey, that's not done yet!

...probably never will be at this rate...

How does the tracking of the death penalty change things, anyway? None of the options in in #797 look like they should depend on whether you have the death penalty in general (though one clearly depends on whether you killed Barry Maxman specifically). The options that let you kill Barry Maxman to begin (especially the public execution one) with may interact with the death penalty flag, either by requiring it for the options to appear or by setting the flag if you choose them, but I have no way of tracking either of those.

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Phydios
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Postby Phydios » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:22 pm

Trotterdam wrote:
Phydios wrote:I went ahead and updated the OP with Trott's map of the chain.
Hey, that's not done yet!

...probably never will be at this rate...

Sorry if I caught you off guard. :) I did note that it wasn't final, though.
Romans 1:18-2:29, Ephesians 2:1-10
But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! | Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. | It’s a wonder God didn’t lose His temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, He embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on His own, with no help from us!

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:09 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Phydios wrote:I went ahead and updated the OP with Trott's map of the chain.
Hey, that's not done yet!

...probably never will be at this rate...

How does the tracking of the death penalty change things, anyway? None of the options in in #797 look like they should depend on whether you have the death penalty in general (though one clearly depends on whether you killed Barry Maxman specifically). The options that let you kill Barry Maxman to begin (especially the public execution one) with may interact with the death penalty flag, either by requiring it for the options to appear or by setting the flag if you choose them, but I have no way of tracking either of those.


You're correct.

While the issue was incorrectly coding nations as having the death penalty or not subsequent to decisions that should have changed this, there are no validity checks against that policy flag in this chain.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:05 pm

I think Empire of the Dragon just confirmed #794 1 -> #797 4. It's inactive enough that parts of the chain were answered more than 7 days ago, but you know what, I'm just going to go ahead and pretend this is conclusive.

Ah, whatever. I went ahead and finalized what I'm pretty sure the validities really are, even if I haven't fully confirmed them. I only had two false negatives and one false positive left anyway, and proving a negative is technically impossible.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:52 am

And I believe that PyroManiac just closed the last hole. I'm pretty confident this is complete now.

Should have trusted my intuition from the start, really, rather than strictly what I'd observed directly.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:03 pm

Argh, Phydios.

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:01 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Argh, Phydios.
Hit him up with a tg
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Phydios
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Postby Phydios » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:19 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Argh, Phydios.

Sorry, is there an update that needs to be made? I keep a close eye on multiple forums, including GI, but I've not seen anything recently that I thought should be added. Have I missed something?
Romans 1:18-2:29, Ephesians 2:1-10
But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! | Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. | It’s a wonder God didn’t lose His temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, He embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on His own, with no help from us!

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:05 am

I edited the map to close the holes (which turned out to be pretty much a big waste of time in the end). If you're going to plagiarize my work, at least plagiarize the correct version. Or just link to it.

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Phydios
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Postby Phydios » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:11 am

Trotterdam wrote:I edited the map to close the holes (which turned out to be pretty much a big waste of time in the end). If you're going to plagiarize my work, at least plagiarize the correct version. Or just link to it.

Ok, I'm not sure where this hostility came from. It's hardly plagiarism when I credit you and only you at the top, thanking you for putting in the effort to assemble the map. I've been adding people's discoveries to the OP since the thread began, usually with no more credit than a link to the source post, and no one has complained before, including you. This is a collaborative effort.

As for the updating, I still see that the "last edited" stamp on your original posting of the map says October 12, so I didn't think you'd been making changes since then, but I'm happy to re-copy it into the OP when I can.
Romans 1:18-2:29, Ephesians 2:1-10
But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! | Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. | It’s a wonder God didn’t lose His temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, He embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on His own, with no help from us!

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:27 pm

Trotterdam wrote:#797 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] Yesterday's News
7. statues of @@LEADER@@ can be found on every street [end chain] [if you abolished democracy with #796 1, or seized power for yourself by firing most of your cabinet and not replacing them with one of #793 3, #793 4, #796 2, #796 3]
A puppet of mine finally got the chain and went with #796 3, but didn't get this option. My database also suggests that it's now only being seen on genuine autocracies, even though I must have had a reason if I reported those other options as also enabling it before. Was this changed?

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Pogaria
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Postby Pogaria » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:26 pm

Trotterdam wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:#797 [@@CAPITAL@@gate] Yesterday's News
7. statues of @@LEADER@@ can be found on every street [end chain] [if you abolished democracy with #796 1, or seized power for yourself by firing most of your cabinet and not replacing them with one of #793 3, #793 4, #796 2, #796 3]
A puppet of mine finally got the chain and went with #796 3, but didn't get this option. My database also suggests that it's now only being seen on genuine autocracies, even though I must have had a reason if I reported those other options as also enabling it before. Was this changed?

I don't see any changes in the log.
FYI: Pogaria is pronounced like puh-GAIR-ee-uh

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