Nation States seems to have a bias

[Izirag]

Lol, yes NS' bias is very blatant. Just look at the rhetoric for religious options in issues; anybody that is pro-religion is depicted as a moron.

This has been observed, in less inflammatory language. It's part of the reason I put out a call for more religion-positive issues (and this is me as an atheist, bear in mind), and why I keep a puppet nation with active presence in a major Islamic region, so I can continue to converse with a deeply religious group of folk about how to create a fiction that is more religion-friendly.

Anyway, issue 665 (In Nomine Ecclesia) was one of the few responses to my call for more religion-friendly writing. However, I've also gone the route of trying to be nuanced in depicting religion in The Enemy Within: despite the issue's humour, there's a serious examination there of a religious minority existing within a nation that is against them.

Your sweeping statement is demonstrably false, and I can give you counter-examples, or you could just read the issue spoiler thread. There are indeed moronic characters who are pro-religion, but there's equally morons of all sorts and ideologies, and there's respectable and sensible religious characters too.

I think broadly, there's still more need for positive depiction of religion in the issue base, and I'm happy to reiterate my call for authors to consider this.

Embrace diversity? Intelligence goes up.

That's incorrect. I have the game code open in front of me, and the Intelligence stat is not driven by diversity. As to correlation, a spot check of the first 20 issue options in the base that increase diversity shows that exactly one of them increases intelligence, and that instance looks to be narratively appropriate: (71.2).

They can say this game is exaggerated and all that shit, but they've made it clear in the stats they have their ideal of what makes an intelligent population, despite present and historical evidence to the contrary.

They? You talking about me and the other editors, by any chance? There's only a handful of us, and I'm the most active one, so you can address me in the second person if you like, make your assertions to me directly, rather than suggesting that there's some distant authority running things to an agenda. Or do you mean the tech team running this show? Though that's more of a 95% of the team is "violet" deal, and I reckon you'll find from the technical forum that violet is pretty approachable and open in discussing things too.

I'm quite happy to talk about evidence and bias, and am always open to reviewing and fixing biases, as I hope these many conversations demonstrate.

Please feel free to evidence correlations of intelligence with stats that you don't think they should correlate with, and to provide the present and historical evidence against those correlations.

There's no "they". There's just a handful of folk tweaking code. Please feel free to converse with us.

No, this isn't my perception, I'm just reading the numbers.

Show the numbers, or it's perception.

Ok, this morning I closed borders to refugees which resulted in a 1.8% loss of intelligence (how?), on another issue I gave my national animal personhood (I don't have one so they're just called "nones") which resulted in an increase in INT (how?). Another one, I legalized polygamy, resulting in an increase in INT(how?). One nation I legalized gay marriage and another I did not, which resulted in an INT increase then a decrease in the other(how?) In one of the terrorism issues I elected to remove foreigners from my nation, resulting in a drop of INT (how?). Now, you bring up the game code, but I just don't have access to this, so what conclusion am I supposed to arrive at when their is clearly a demonstrative trend. My issues with the game's attitudes towards inclusiveness and homogeneous populations and the correlation I have witnessed in the game can be countered with historical examples such as ancient Greece, a largely racially homogeneous society that produced some of the most beautiful minds in history. Renaissance Europe or past Europe in general is another example. Jews, yes the ethnic group is another example of a largely homogeneous population with notable INT. Clearly, my main beef is with the "foreign is ALWAYS good or at least not bad" I have seen with this game's stats, the rest of my examples I am less concerned with. I just see more often than not when my inclusiveness increases the intellect will follow.

I've also made nearly identical nations and the ones without compulsory military service when following identical issue choice selection always have lower INT. But why then were the ancient people of Sparta who practiced compulsory military service so widely regarded as intelligent and academic by their neighbors? I have made at least 10 nations and a rise in Social Conservatism is usually followed with a drop in INT. I do not take this game seriously, nor its quantification of more decisively difficult to quantify stats, and there are certainly others. Honestly, some of the bias against the strongly religious and intelligence is true, so I don't think you should bend neck too much regarding that, I am just agreeing there is (somewhat justifiable) bias for that specifically. Regardless, I very much enjoy this game and I thank you and "they" for your work.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Good examples.

Can you try it again with Issue numbers and confirm that it was with this nation? It'd be a lot easier to look into that way.

Actually, don't worry, I think can work out most of them.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Ok, this morning I closed borders to refugees which resulted in a 1.8% loss of intelligence (how?),

Yep, that's within the game engine rather than the issue. I've flagged that as potentially biased myself, as despite being an intelligent descendant of immigrants, I don't think immigration makes a nation inherently smarter. Agree that is one that needs to change.

For context, I'd observe that there's about a hundred system weirdnesses I've flagged for change, and they don't have any particular political leaning to their oddities. It's more about sloppiness in simulation design rather than deliberate bias. Seriously, some of the oddities are just plain insane.

on another issue I gave my national animal personhood (I don't have one so they're just called "nones") which resulted in an increase in INT (how?). Another one, I legalized polygamy, resulting in an increase in INT(how?). One nation I legalized gay marriage and another I did not, which resulted in an INT increase then a decrease in the other(how?) In one of the terrorism issues I elected to remove foreigners from my nation, resulting in a drop of INT (how?).

Interesting one, yeah, those are good points.

You're right actually that all those things move things in the directions you say, but possibly not for the reasons you're perceiving.

Actually, they're all about civil rights. When civil rights rise, so does intelligence.

As it turns out, pro-inclusiveness options often create greater civil rights, but there are ALSO right wing civil rights which the game engine acknowledges, and when they rise, so does intelligence.

For example, respect the right to bear arms, and intelligence rises. Respect the right to reject government authority, and intelligence rises. Respect the right to hold far-right views, and intelligence rises.

Take, for example, option 22. The pro-diversity anti-freedom option 1 hurts intelligence. The anti-diversity pro-freedom option 2 boosts intelligence.

Now, you bring up the game code, but I just don't have access to this, so what conclusion am I supposed to arrive at when their is clearly a demonstrative trend.

That correlation observed across a limited sample is not proof of causation.

I totally see how you reached those conclusions now, and it's a very reasonable conclusion, likely informed by an observer showing recall bias of circumstances that support their position, which is an entirely expected phenomenon.

I can absolutely confirm that diversity does not increase intelligence, nor does population religiousness (or lack thereof). I can however, agree with you that the game illogically gives an intelligence boost for allowing immigration, which is likely political bias at the core design level.

I have made at least 10 nations and a rise in Social Conservatism is usually followed with a drop in INT.

There, you are absolutely correct, but that's because Social Conservatism is a terribly named stats that has nothing to do with social conservatism. It's basically inverse civil rights. So, allow people to have guns to defend themselves against tyranny, and you get a less conservative government. Force them to obey the Communist Party, and you get a more conservative government.

Put that one down to a really badly named stat. Social Control would be more accurate.

And yes, as Civil Rights rise, so too does intelligence. Everything else you've observed here is basically illusory patterns in the chaos.

Regardless, I very much enjoy this game and I thank you and "they" for your work.

You're welcome! And this has been a very useful conversation for someone trying to eliminate bias from the game.

[Izirag]

I am aware that civil rights increases int, I just figured some of those examples were relevant as well. I am always open to brainstorming ways to improve NS so feel free to contact me or direct to a thread over any other things you or whoever may desire input on.

[Excelsion]

Endorsing a "no Immigration" choice (it was the 'a Clash of Cultures' issue) increased my charmlessness by 6600% rather than decreasing unemployment it increased and crime increased rather than decreased, forfeiting all real statistical data.

I just had an issue about circumcision and chose the option to restrict it until a certain age while educating the children about it until they can make a decision for themselves. Rather than increasing intelligence it decreased intelligence it increased primitivness rather than decrease it and it even decreased scientific advance.

You can tell me what you want or that the system is complicated - this game has a very clear leftwing bias and its a red string through the majority of options.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

If you're going to necro a two year old thread, then I suggest at least rereading the thread first.

Here's Ransium's answer from 2017.

These threads aren't terribly helpful. Do you expect us to go back and recode every issue based on your vague suggestions of bias? Feel free to point out bias in individual issues stats in the Unusual Stats effects thread. Feel free to become good enough of an issue writer to be an editor so you can suggest your own stats (a conservative bend would probably help your chances since we are looking for diversity). But please don't make another of these general 'editors are biased' threads and think you are helping something. Your not. We are volunteers doing our best, we try to achieve fairness, but we are humans and as such are inherently biased (as are you). I'll note that I've also seen threads accusing us of having a conservative bias too, so no matter what we do some people will be unhappy.

[USS Monitor]

Locked for the gravedig.