NationStates

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:58 am**

Hello,

I have tried to write an issue based on the controversy that emerged in Europe a few weeks ago when some Turkish politicians wanted to organize rallies in Germany and the Netherlands to ask the Turkish immigrants living there to vote Yes in the upcoming referendum.

I am waiting for your comments and suggestions!

Draft 3 --- only slightly changed and sprinkled with some unpretentious humor here and there

[description]Your advisors have notified you that Dick Tator, the autocratic leader of Marche Noir, wants to come to @@NAME@@ with several ministers in his cabinet and organize rallies to campaign for the votes of Marche Noirian immigrants in the upcoming elections in Marche Noir. Angry protestors demand that the dictator be not allowed to propagate his extremist views on @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ soil.

[validity]has above-average civil rights & political rights, allows immigration

1. [option] ''This is a travesty!'' yells @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@, the leader of the ‘Freedom for Oppressed Peoples’ initiative. ''Mr. Tator is a dictator oppressing his people and he maintains his power simply by sowing seeds of hatred in Marche Noir against @@NAME@@ and rigging the elections! @@NAME@@ is a democratic country and we cannot allow dictators to use our country as a stage for their farcical propaganda. @@LEADER@@, ban these people from coming to our country immediately!''
[effect] Border police is on alert as some politicians from Marche Noir attempt to enter @@NAME@@ illegally.

2. [option] ''This is a travesty!'' yells @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@, a Marche Noirian immigrant carrying a life-size cardboard cutout of Dick Tator and showering his image with sloppy kisses. ''We love Dick Tator! He is the democratically elected leader of Marche Noir who got 99% of the votes in the latest elections and he has every right to talk to his supporters here. You keep saying that people have freedom of speech here, will you deprive our Supreme Leader of his freedom of speech now? @@LEADER@@, allow our leader to organize rallies here.''
[effect] @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ are stunned as the leader of Marche Noir proclaims them to be ''@@ANIMAL@@-eating fascists'' on live TV, applauded by Marche Noirian immigrants.

3. [option] ''This is what happens when a softy like YOU becomes the leader,'' sneers @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@, an extreme nationalist in the parliament; even as he runs his fingers through his fluffy hair looking in the mirror behind you. ''For years you have been admitting these filthy barbarians into our country, they took our jobs, they survived on our welfare, yet they were never thankful. And now they want to impose their skewed ideology on us! None of this would have happened if we had no Marche Noirian immigrants to begin with. Be a leader just for a day and deport them all to their country which they seem to love so much!''
[effect] Thousands of immigrants who had come to @@NAME@@ to escape from the dictatorship in Marche Noir are applying to Maxtopia for asylum.

4. [option] ''Well, let’s not rush through this, there is always room for compromise, isn’t there?'' asks @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@ your Minister of Solutions, filing her fingernails. ''This dictator wants to come here to ask the Marche Noirians to vote for him, right? And the immigrants living here CAN vote for him, because they still hold Marche Noirian citizenship. But what if we abolished dual citizenship? That way, if the immigrants let go of their Marche Noirian citizenship, they will not be able to vote, so their dictator wouldn’t bother to come here. And if they do not give up their Marche Noirian citizenship, they cannot keep their @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ citizenship, and in that case we can deport them if we want to. Simple, right?''
[effect] Marche Noirian immigrants are transformed into full-blooded @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ patriots overnight.

5. [option]''Maybe we can do this without antagonizing Marche Noir,'' whispers @@RANDOMNAME@@, your Foreign Affairs consultant, who had been hiding in your closet all this time. ''Don’t forget that our @@MAJORINDUSTRY@@ industry depends on our cooperation with our Marche Noirian friends. In addition, we wouldn’t want our friends in @@REGION@@ to think that we are a xenophobic government. I suggest that you tell Dick Tator to hold his rally in the backyard of the Marche Noirian embassy in @@CAPITAL@@, which is technically Marche Noirian soil. That way, his supporters will be happy, and @@NAME@@ will not have hosted his rally.''
[effect] The pro-government media in Marche Noir proudly announce that the 100-square meter backyard of the embassy was overflowing with enthusiastic voters who came to hear Dick Tator’s speech.

[description]Your advisors have notified you that @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@, the autocratic leader of Marche Noir, and several ministers in his cabinet want to come to @@NAME@@ to organize rallies and ask Marche Noirian immigrants to vote for their Party for Freedom and Equality in the upcoming elections in Marche Noir. Representatives from human rights organizations have come to you demanding that the dictator be not allowed to propagate his extremist views on @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ soil.

[validity]has above-average civil rights & political rights, allows immigration

1. [option] ''This is a travesty!'' yells @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@, the leader of the ‘Freedom for Oppressed Peoples’ initiative. ''@@HE@@ is a dictator oppressing his people and he maintains his power simply by sowing seeds of hatred in Marche Noir against @@NAME@@ and calling us terrorists. @@NAME@@ is a democratic country and we cannot allow dictators to pursue their tyrannical agenda here. @@LEADER@@, ban these people from coming to our country immediately!''
[effect] Border police is on alert as some politicians from Marche Noir attempt to enter @@NAME@@ illegally.

2. [option] ''This is a travesty!'' yells @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@, a Marche Noirian immigrant, who somehow managed to bypass security and enter your room. ''We love @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@! @@HE@@ is the democratically elected leader of Marche Noir and has every right to talk to his supporters here. You pride yourself on being the leader of a democratic country where people have freedom of speech, will you deprive our Supreme Leader of his freedom of speech now? @@LEADER@@, allow our leader to organize rallies here.''
[effect] @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ are stunned as the dictator of Marche Noir proclaims them to be ''@@ANIMAL@@-eating fascists'' on live TV, applauded by Marche Noirian immigrants.

3. [option] ''This is what happens when a softy like YOU becomes the leader,'' sneers @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@, an extreme nationalist in the parliament. ''For years you have been admitting these filthy Marche Noirians into our country, they took our jobs, they survived on our welfare, yet they were never thankful. And now they want to impose their skewed ideology on us! None of this would have happened if we had no Marche Noirian immigrants to begin with. Be a leader just for a day and deport them all to their country which they seem to love so much!''
[effect] Thousands of immigrants who had come to @@NAME@@ to escape from the dictatorship in Marche Noir are applying to Maxtopia for asylum.

4. [option] ''Well, let’s not rush through this, there is always room for compromise, isn’t there?'' asks @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@ your Minister of Solutions. ''This dictator wants to come here to ask the Marche Noirians to vote for him, right? And the immigrants living here CAN vote for him, because they still hold Marche Noirian citizenship. But what if we abolished dual citizenship? That way, the immigrants would have to let go of their citizenship for their country of origin, and not be able to vote, so their dictator wouldn’t bother to come here. And if they do not give up their Marche Noirian citizenship, they cannot get a @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ citizenship, and in that case we can deport them if we want to.''
[effect] Marche Noirian immigrants are transformed into full-blood @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ patriots overnight.

5. [option]''Maybe we can do this without antagonizing Marche Noir,'' whispers @@RANDOMNAME@@, your Foreign Affairs consultant. ''Don’t forget that our @@MAJORINDUSTRY@@ industry depends on our cooperation with our Marche Noirian friends. In addition, we wouldn’t want our friends in @@REGION@@ to think that we are a xenophobic government. I suggest that you tell @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@ to hold his rally in the backyard of the Marche Noirian embassy in @@CAPITAL@@, which is technically Marche Noirian soil. That way, his supporters will be happy, and @@NAME@@ will not have hosted his rally.''
[effect] The pro-government media in Marche Noir proudly announce that the 100-square meter backyard of the embassy was overflowing with enthusiastic voters who came to hear their leader’s speech.

[description]Your advisors have notified you that @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@, the dictator of Marche Noir, and several ministers in his cabinet want to come to @@NAME@@ to organize rallies and ask Marche Noirian immigrants to vote for their party in the upcoming elections. Representatives from human rights organizations have come to you demanding that the dictator be not allowed to propagate his extremist views on @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ soil.

[validity]Must have above-average civil rights & political rights, allows immigrants

1. [option] ''This is a travesty!'' yells @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@, the leader of the 'Freedom for Journalists' initiative. ''@@HE@@ is a dictator, oppressing his people and incarcerating the journalists who report on his corruption scandals, and we all know that he maintains his power simply by sowing seeds of hatred in Marche Noir against @@NAME@@ and declaring everyone who is not a Violetist to be an enemy of the State. @@NAME@@ is a democratic country and we cannot allow dictators to pursue their tyrannical agenda here. @@LEADER@@, ban these people from coming to our country immediately!''
[effect] Border police is on alert as some politicians from Marche Noir attempt to enter @@NAME@@ illegally.

2. [option] ''This is a travesty!'' yells @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@, a Marche Noirian immigrant, who somehow managed to bypass security and enter your room. ''@@HE@@ is the democratically elected leader of Marche Noir and has every right to talk to his supporters here. You pride yourself on being the leader of a democratic country where people have freedom of speech, will you deprive our Supreme Leader of his freedom of speech now? @@LEADER@@, allow our leader to organize rallies here.''
[effect] @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ are stunned as the dictator of Marche Noir proclaims them to be ''@@ANIMAL@@-eating fascists'' on live TV, applauded by Marche Noirian immigrants.

3. [option] ''This is what happens when a softy like YOU becomes the leader,'' sneers @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@, a far-right leader who is your greatest rival. ''For years you have been admitting these filthy Marche Noirians into our country, they took our jobs, they survived on our welfare, yet they were never thankful. And now they want to impose their skewed ideology on us! None of this would have happened if we had no Marche Noirian immigrants to begin with. Be a leader just for a day and deport them all to their country which they seem to love so much!''
[effect] Thousands of immigrants who had come to @@NAME@@ to escape from the dictatorship in Marche Noir are applying to Maxtopia for asylum.

4. [option] ''Well, let’s not rush through this, there is always room for compromise, isn’t there?'' asks @@RANDOMNAMEFEMALE@@ your Minister of Solutions. ''This dictator wants to come here to ask the Marche Noirians to vote for him, right? And the immigrants living here CAN vote for him, because they still hold Marche Noirian citizenship. But what if we abolished dual citizenship? That way, the immigrants would have to let go of their citizenship for their country of origin, and not be able to vote, so their dictator wouldn’t bother to come here. And if they do not give up their Marche Noirian citizenship, they cannot get a @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ citizenship, and in that case we can deport them if we want to.''
[effect] Marche Noirian immigrants are transformed into full-blood @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ patriots overnight.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:01 am**

Nice issue. Little issue with Option 3; what if you are the leader of your nation's far-right?

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:05 am**

Austria and Bavaria wrote:Nice issue. Little issue with Option 3; what if you are the leader of your nation's far-right?

That's true, but I also say that this guy is the leader's greatest rival. Perhaps the country could have 2 far-right parties?

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:09 am**

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:
Austria and Bavaria wrote:Nice issue. Little issue with Option 3; what if you are the leader of your nation's far-right?

That's true, but I also say that this guy is the leader's greatest rival. Perhaps the country could have 2 far-right parties?

I suppose, but maybe it's a better idea to just have him as a "far right leader"?

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:10 am**

Austria and Bavaria wrote:
Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:
That's true, but I also say that this guy is the leader's greatest rival. Perhaps the country could have 2 far-right parties?

I suppose, but maybe it's a better idea to just have him as a "far right leader"?

Sure, I changed it as you suggested.

Thanks!

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:11 am**

I would think that the validity (decent civil rights and political freedoms) would rule out any far right nation getting this...

F&F, you may want to add ' allows immigrants' to the validity categories. I know of a couple of issues that allow you to ban immigrants.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:14 am**

Caracasus wrote:I would think that the validity (decent civil rights and political freedoms) would rule out any far right nation getting this...

F&F, you may want to add ' allows immigrants' to the validity categories. I know of a couple of issues that allow you to ban immigrants.

I added it, thank you!

And yes, if a country has decent civil & political rights, it is unlikely to have a far-right leader. But still, it is OK to say that the guy in Option 3 is merely 'a far-right leader.'

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:14 am**

1) I think particularly in the @text you need to more vague about whether he is a dictator or not. Something implying the last election having strong allegations of corruption. Also think you should play up the racist/anti-@@name@@ agenda the leader has held in the past in the @text. To make room for this some of the fluff particularly in the first sentence could be cut.

2) I would make the validity criteria must have elections and immigration and edit out assumptions that your government is liberal. Particularly the line in #3 about it being your biggest rival needs to go. Just make him an extreme nationalist and leave it there.

3) To my mind the biggest weakness is that it is a bit like the issue on do you want to let nazis hold a rally (on mobile so I don't feel like looking up the title/issue number but surely most know what issue I'm referencing). I think the difference you need to emphasize is here there's the angle of the hearts and minds of immigrants, dangerous FOREIGN hate speech, and political relations with a foreign government are on the line, so you want to emphasize these differences were appropriate in the options.

Overall it's a nice start, I think.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:33 pm**

Ransium wrote:1) I think particularly in the @text you need to more vague about whether he is a dictator or not. Something implying the last election having strong allegations of corruption. Also think you should play up the racist/anti-@@name@@ agenda the leader has held in the past in the @text. To make room for this some of the fluff particularly in the first sentence could be cut.

2) I would make the validity criteria must have elections and immigration and edit out assumptions that your government is liberal. Particularly the line in #3 about it being your biggest rival needs to go. Just make him an extreme nationalist and leave it there.

3) To my mind the biggest weakness is that it is a bit like the issue on do you want to let nazis hold a rally (on mobile so I don't feel like looking up the title/issue number but surely most know what issue I'm referencing). I think the difference you need to emphasize is here there's the angle of the hearts and minds of immigrants, dangerous FOREIGN hate speech, and political relations with a foreign government are on the line, so you want to emphasize these differences were appropriate in the options.

Overall it's a nice start, I think.

Hello Ransium,

Thank you for your comments. I've made some changes.

1) I don't know whether I could be vague enough about him being a dictator, but at least I changed the title and referred to him neutrally as 'leader.' In the description paragraph, too, he was referred to as 'an autocratic leader.' Maybe this helps? I also tried to draw more attention to this dictator's hate of @@NAME@@ and cut the parts about the incarceration of journalists in Option 1 - which was a bit off-topic.

2) I think I should keep the assumption that the government is liberal. After all, in Option 2, the immigrant demands that the Marche Noirian leader be allowed to organize rallies precisely because @@NAME@@ is a democratic country that values freedom of speech. How much sense does it make if a nation with below-average political rights receives this issue? So if possible, I'd like to keep the requirement that the nation have above average civil and political rights.

As you suggested, I called the guy in Option 3 just 'an extreme nationalist in the parliament.'

3) Yes, the title of the issue you mentioned was ''Nazi Sympathizers Plan Rally.'' It is a very different issue, but the underlying dilemma as to 'how much freedom of speech is too much?' is the same. I added a 5th option to emphasize the points you mentioned. Here a foreign affairs consultant underlines the importance of keeping good relations with Marche Noir (presumably for a Machiavellian reason, because it is good for the economy), plus s/he mentions that, if the rally is not permitted, other nations in @@REGION@@ may accuse @@NAME@@ of xenophobia. Does this help?

Again, many thanks for your comments.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:30 pm**

Nice little issue here. But if he's an autocratic dictator, he's unlikely to host elections. Even if he does, they're likely to be just for show. Also, everytime you use @@RANDOMMALENAME@@, it produces a DIFFERENT name. Keep that in mind

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:15 am**

Australian Republic wrote:Nice little issue here. But if he's an autocratic dictator, he's unlikely to host elections. Even if he does, they're likely to be just for show. Also, everytime you use @@RANDOMMALENAME@@, it produces a DIFFERENT name. Keep that in mind

Thanks! But I don't think being an autocratic leader rules out holding elections. Some autocrats do hold elections and they win the majority vote. You could say Erdogan is one of those people. From the perspective of his opponents he really is a dictator as he oppresses them, yet his supporters simply love him, and they would quickly label anyone who criticizes him as an enemy of the state, a conspirator, etc. I think the same is true for Putin. There are many people in his country who would say he is a dictator (or at least a very oppressive leader), there is no freedom of press (unless you write the stuff that he would like - same for Erdogan as well), and yet a significant portion of Russian people just love him! That's what gets him elected every time! So I think we cannot say that dictators do not hold elections or that democratically elected people cannot be dictators.

You might say that the elections that dictators win may be rigged. Perhaps. But I haven't always seen solid proof for that, so some dictators would have the benefit of doubt. Plus, Erdogan and Putin really have so many fanatical supporters that I don't think they really need to rig the elections to win - at least most of the time.

---------------------------------------

Yes, the @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@ issue is important, I suspected it would turn out to be a problem, but I didn't know how to solve it. Is it possible to index the @@HE@@s so that they reproduce the name of a certain @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@?

For example: @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@ -> @@HE1@@ (is the same as the first @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@ in the text
@@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@ -> @@HE2@@ (is the same as the second @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@ in the text

etc.

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:10 am**

So... why is Marche Noir supporting this political party?

Do they hope to shift your foreign policy in a way that would benefit Marche Noir directly? Are they pushing some ideology that Marche Noir feels strongly about, making your nation more similar to theirs without necessarily benefitting them personally? What policy or ideology?

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:15 am**

Trotterdam wrote:So... why is Marche Noir supporting this political party?

Do they hope to shift your foreign policy in a way that would benefit Marche Noir directly? Are they pushing some ideology that Marche Noir feels strongly about, making your nation more similar to theirs without necessarily benefitting them personally? What policy or ideology?

Let's say the Marche Noirian leader just mobilizes the masses by first creating artificial enemies and then ''defeating'' them by speaking of them in a demeaning fashion. It's just a way of guaranteeing the loyalty of the people. If they believe that they are threatened by the rest of the world and that their leader is the only possible saviour, they will follow him blindly and not even think of questioning his wrongdoings.

Would something like that work? This is how I conceptualized it: Marche Noirian leader as an oppressive autocrat who is being a scaremonger just to maintain his power in his own country. @@NAME@@ is probably just one of many randomly selected ''enemies.''

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:06 am**

Oh, the leader of Marche Noir wants citizens to support a @@DENONYMADJECTIVE@@ party. I thought you meant they wanted @@NAME@@'s citizens to vote for the Marche Norian party. By adding the macro @@DENONYMADJECTIVE@@ or "@@NAME@@" before "political party" in the first line of the descrption, it may help eliminate confusinon

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:14 am**

Australian Republic wrote:Oh, the leader of Marche Noir wants citizens to support a @@DENONYMADJECTIVE@@ party. I thought you meant they wanted @@NAME@@'s citizens to vote for the Marche Norian party. By adding the macro @@DENONYMADJECTIVE@@ or "@@NAME@@" before "political party" in the first line of the descrption, it may help eliminate confusinon

Thanks for the suggestion, I did not see this coming. @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Party may be confusing for other reasons, however. I assume their party is not the only party in @@NAME@@.

So would it be OK if I gave a fake (and ironic!) name to their party, like Party for Freedom and Equality or something like that?

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:29 am**

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:
Australian Republic wrote:Oh, the leader of Marche Noir wants citizens to support a @@DENONYMADJECTIVE@@ party. I thought you meant they wanted @@NAME@@'s citizens to vote for the Marche Norian party. By adding the macro @@DENONYMADJECTIVE@@ or "@@NAME@@" before "political party" in the first line of the descrption, it may help eliminate confusinon

Thanks for the suggestion, I did not see this coming. @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Party may be confusing for other reasons, however. I assume their party is not the only party in @@NAME@@.

So would it be OK if I gave a fake (and ironic!) name to their party, like Party for Freedom and Equality or something like that?

No, in fact, that sounds more like something that a physcotic dictatorship would name its own party

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:35 am**

OK, added it.

Any other comments? Guidelines on how to resolve the confusion about the random names, suggestions for a funny title, etc.?

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:56 am**

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:OK, added it.

Any other comments? Guidelines on how to resolve the confusion about the random names, suggestions for a funny title, etc.?

No, it's still confusing, sorry. I stillmadvocate for @@DENONYMADJECTIV@@

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:06 am**

Australian Republic wrote:
Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:OK, added it.

Any other comments? Guidelines on how to resolve the confusion about the random names, suggestions for a funny title, etc.?

No, it's still confusing, sorry. I stillmadvocate for @@DENONYMADJECTIV@@

@@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ Party would be a party in @@NAME@@ lol. Marche Noir's leader wants votes for his OWN party in Marche Noir.

--------------------------------

OK, I now see the confusion that started with Trotterdam's post. I assume you are unfamiliar with what happened in Europe a few weeks ago. (such a bliss! I wish I never had to hear about such stupid stuff either.)

As you might know, there are many Turkish immigrants living in Europe, particularly in Germany and in the Netherlands, and most of them have dual citizenship - which means that according to the Turkish law, these immigrants can still go to the polls in the Turkish embassies or consulates in their countries and vote for Turkish elections (even though they have never lived in Turkey except for short summer vacations, and never will.) If you take into account that around 3 million Turks live in Germany, of which around 1.5 million are eligible voters; you can understand what the fuss is about. This is a significant number and therefore Turkish politicians are keen to organize rallies in Europe to get the support of immigrants. But given the hawkish, polarizing discourse of the Erdogan government and his oppressive domestic policies, the issue of allowing Turkish politicians to make propaganda for Turkish elections (the upcoming referendum) in Europe has been more controversial than ever. Germany and the Netherlands banned some Turkish politicians from organizing rallies - an opportunity which these politicians used very well when they went back home, to give their voters ''proof'' that Europeans were all Islamophobic, they hated Turks, etc.

That's the deal. Marche Noir's leader is angling for votes for his own party in @@NAME@@.

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:59 am**

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:I assume you are unfamiliar with what happened in Europe a few weeks ago. (such a bliss! I wish I never had to hear about such stupid stuff either.)

What happened in real life is irrelevant. You can use real life as inspiration for issues, but issues should make sense on their own terms, even to readers not familiar with the inspiration.

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:As you might know, there are many Turkish immigrants living in Europe, particularly in Germany and in the Netherlands, and most of them have dual citizenship - which means that according to the Turkish law, these immigrants can still go to the polls in the Turkish embassies or consulates in their countries and vote for Turkish elections (even though they have never lived in Turkey except for short summer vacations, and never will.) If you take into account that around 3 million Turks live in Germany, of which around 1.5 million are eligible voters; you can understand what the fuss is about. This is a significant number and therefore Turkish politicians are keen to organize rallies in Europe to get the support of immigrants.

So, wait, the Turkish government is campaigning for Turkish-citizenship people living in the Netherlands to vote in the Turkish elections, not the Dutch ones?

That's... pretty absurd, I have to admit, but I also don't see why the Dutch would really care about it, beyond "some other country out there has corrupt politics", which isn't a rare observation. It seems like a Turkish problem that's up to the Turks to solve.

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:But given the hawkish, polarizing discourse of the Erdogan government and his oppressive domestic policies, the issue of allowing Turkish politicians to make propaganda for Turkish elections (the upcoming referendum) in Europe has been more controversial than ever. Germany and the Netherlands banned some Turkish politicians from organizing rallies - an opportunity which these politicians used very well when they went back home, to give their voters ''proof'' that Europeans were all Islamophobic, they hated Turks, etc.

...And, some people in real life disagree with me apparently.

That happens distressingly often.

What happened to freedom of speech? Democracy watchdogs would never stand for it if we banned campaigns for a particular party in our own nation, but banning campaigns for a party in some other nation that doesn't even directly affect us is okay?

...Well, thanks for explaining.

Anyway, the issue can still stand to be more clear about what's going on, and maybe explain what this Marche Noirian party's policies are that are so controversial in @@NAME@@. Why would it be bad for us if they win?

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:33 am**

Trotterdam wrote:
Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:I assume you are unfamiliar with what happened in Europe a few weeks ago. (such a bliss! I wish I never had to hear about such stupid stuff either.)
What happened in real life is irrelevant. You can use real life as inspiration for issues, but issues should make sense on their own terms, even to readers not familiar with the inspiration.

Sure, it was just an inspiration. But I'd like to keep things similar as far as the fact that Marche Noirian immigrants in @@NAME@@ are going to vote for Marche Noirian elections is concerned.

Trotterdam wrote:
Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:As you might know, there are many Turkish immigrants living in Europe, particularly in Germany and in the Netherlands, and most of them have dual citizenship - which means that according to the Turkish law, these immigrants can still go to the polls in the Turkish embassies or consulates in their countries and vote for Turkish elections (even though they have never lived in Turkey except for short summer vacations, and never will.) If you take into account that around 3 million Turks live in Germany, of which around 1.5 million are eligible voters; you can understand what the fuss is about. This is a significant number and therefore Turkish politicians are keen to organize rallies in Europe to get the support of immigrants.
So, wait, the Turkish government is campaigning for Turkish-citizenship people living in the Netherlands to vote in the Turkish elections, not the Dutch ones?

Yep - weird, right?

Trotterdam wrote:
Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:But given the hawkish, polarizing discourse of the Erdogan government and his oppressive domestic policies, the issue of allowing Turkish politicians to make propaganda for Turkish elections (the upcoming referendum) in Europe has been more controversial than ever. Germany and the Netherlands banned some Turkish politicians from organizing rallies - an opportunity which these politicians used very well when they went back home, to give their voters ''proof'' that Europeans were all Islamophobic, they hated Turks, etc.
...And, some people in real life disagree with me apparently.

That happens distressingly often.

What happened to freedom of speech? Democracy watchdogs would never stand for it if we banned campaigns for a particular party in our own nation, but banning campaigns for a party in some other nation that doesn't even directly affect us is okay?

...Well, thanks for explaining.

Anyway, the issue can still stand to be more clear about what's going on, and maybe explain what this Marche Noirian party's policies are that are so controversial in @@NAME@@. Why would it be bad for us if they win?

Well, banning or permitting the campaign of a foreign leader is a controversial issue, but I think it is not too awkward when an extremist leader gets banned abroad. You cannot use democracy to campaign for a party that has the ultimate goal of compromising democracy in its own country, for example. And that has always been the case in Turkey since the ruling party seized power - but the intensity of oppression has just increased within the last few years, freedoms have been curtailed, the opposition has been forced into silence, the journalists are meek and any person who has the courage to open his/her mouth to make a statement even mildly critical of the government is being lionized and praised for his/ her bravery --- because there is such a disturbing lack of outspoken people these days.

Should we nevertheless allow these people to visit Europe and spread their propaganda. A somewhat similar incident happened in the UK in February. Some people protested Trump's planned state visit to the UK, they demonstrated on the streets, said that he was not welcome in the UK because of his misogyny, racism, etc. As a result of this strong reaction, Trump's state visit to the UK has been postponed (I think he will go there this summer, correct me if I'm wrong). Trump is not going to the UK for election propaganda, of course; he will go there as the president of the US, but still, if there is freedom of speech, the democracy watchdogs should allow Trump to go to the UK and address the parliament, and so on. But if the politician in question is known for not being a very deomcratic leader, well, I think I just can't feel sorry for them when some people react to them and try to get them banned.

Anyway, I recognize the dilemma here. On the one hand we want to have freedom of speech, but sometimes we encounter people who use (or abuse) this freedom of speech to campaign for an ideology that is ultimately geared towards depriving their opponents of their freedom of speech. Is this normal? When this is the case, I can understand why some people in Europe don't think it is right that such politicians should be allowed campaign here. I don't think Europe really cares about the outcome of the referendum (though a yes-response in the referendum would mean that Erdoagn would consolidate his power even further, and if the future of a country depends on the decisions of one person, this portends volatile times - and Europe would not want to have an unstable, volatile neighbour), but the discourse of hatred that pervades the pro-government propaganda is not tolerable - just my two cents.

As for @@NAME@@ and Marche Noir... Maybe we can say that the special thing about this Marche Noirian leader is that he is a racist and he hates the citizens of @@NAME@@, he vilifies them in his speeches, etc. (Imagine Trump travelling to Mexico to ask the US expats living there to vote him or something like that). As a result, many @@NAME@@ citizens are not comfortable with that leader coming to their country to campaign for his party. Maybe I can emphasize this point?

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:59 am**

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:As for @@NAME@@ and Marche Noir... Maybe we can say that the special thing about this Marche Noirian leader is that he is a racist and he hates the citizens of @@NAME@@, he vilifies them in his speeches, etc. (Imagine Trump travelling to Mexico to ask the US expats living there to vote him or something like that). As a result, many @@NAME@@ citizens are not comfortable with that leader coming to their country to campaign for his party. Maybe I can emphasize this point?

Even if many Marche Noirians are racist against @@NAME@@, I somehow doubt the ones who immigrated to @@NAME@@ are the most fervent adherents of this racist rhetoric.

Posted: **Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:06 am**

Trotterdam wrote:
Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:As for @@NAME@@ and Marche Noir... Maybe we can say that the special thing about this Marche Noirian leader is that he is a racist and he hates the citizens of @@NAME@@, he vilifies them in his speeches, etc. (Imagine Trump travelling to Mexico to ask the US expats living there to vote him or something like that). As a result, many @@NAME@@ citizens are not comfortable with that leader coming to their country to campaign for his party. Maybe I can emphasize this point?
Even if many Marche Noirians are racist against @@NAME@@, I somehow doubt the ones who immigrated to @@NAME@@ are the most fervent adherents of this racist rhetoric.

I wish I could believe that...

But I think it is possible that the Marche Noirian immigrants like living in @@NAME@@ because it is a democratic country, while at the same time voting for antidemocratic, fascist parties in their country of origin. (If you look at the voting preferences of the Turkish immigrants in Europe holding a dual citizenship, you will see that most of them vote for left-leaning parties in their country of residence, whereas they predominantly vote for far-right parties in Turkish elections.)

It is not unimaginable for me.

Posted: **Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:53 am**

I like it. There's things I would still change where I editor but I don't think anything is too critical. Try to make it a bit less wordy and if you can, a bit more funny. I'd cut the last sentence from the opening text. The first sentence is a bit unwieldy and needs to be broken up, I think. The comma after Noir seems unnecessary and confuses my reading.

Posted: **Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:49 am**

Ransium wrote:I like it. There's things I would still change where I editor but I don't think anything is too critical. Try to make it a bit less wordy and if you can, a bit more funny. I'd cut the last sentence from the opening text. The first sentence is a bit unwieldy and needs to be broken up, I think. The comma after Noir seems unnecessary and confuses my reading.

Thanks, I am trying to add more fun to it right now.

Can you help me with the @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@ thing? How can I get the system to reliably produce the same name for the leader when @@RANDOMNAMEMALE@@ is also used for individuals who offer options?

Should I instead give a name to the Marche Noirian leader and thereby get rid of these confusing random names?

NationStates

[ACCEPTED]Marche Noir’s Leader Angling for Votes in @@NAME@@

[ACCEPTED]Marche Noir’s Leader Angling for Votes in @@NAME@@