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[discussion] Repetition, redundancy and repetition.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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[discussion] Repetition, redundancy and repetition.

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:10 pm

So, as you can see, I'm a bit bored right now. Let's talk about something else that comes up in writing and editing:

Repetition of Words

One thing we often flag for each other in the issue editing room - and change when editing issues - is repetition of the same word over and over.

edit:
One thing we often flag for each other in the editing room - and change when working on issues - is repetition of words.


In other words, we note that in writing it often looks less interesting when the same phrase or word is used more than once, especially within the space of a single option.

For example an issue I edited had this:

@choice: "After several cheaply repaired pieces of furniture have broken down causing several injuries, dozens of burned, scarred, and mortally wounded people demand change to the furniture restoration industry."


One of the first things I noted was that it was too gamist, emphasising 'the furniture restoration industry'. I think calling out a named industry is fine, but if we don't use synonyms, we run the risk of breaking a sense of reality and immersion, as it immediately frames a scenario in terms of game stats rather than story.

However, the second thing I noted was that in two lines, the word 'furniture' comes up twice. I read it out loud three times, and this jarred.

Recently, there have been many reported incidents of cheaply repaired pieces of furniture falling apart and causing serious injuries, including bruises, cuts and even one case of fatal friction burn. Bandage-covered victims are demanding action!


Repetition gone.

To be clear, I'm not saying I feel repetition is always undesirable. I think that actually, used right, it can be a powerful point of emphasis and persuasion, especially when repetition comes in threes. For example:

"Mathematics is the purest of all fields of study. Mathematics is the secret language of the universe. Mathematics is what you need to succeed."

Politicians do this a lot, because they know the power of the triple repetition and the three item list. Listen to any competent politician making a speech, and you'll see these triple drops all over the damn place.

What I don't like, however, is repetition that occurs when a speaker can't think of a better word. This gives the appearance of lower intellect: fine if depicting a character that is being depicted as of lower intellect, fine if lower intellect is what you want to transmit, but not so fine if we're trying to set up a scenario in a coherent way.

(Hey look, I did an overlapping triple repetition!)

Again, this is my opinion, please do chime in and disagree.


Redundancy

Issues have to be quite short, as long wordy issues don't hold attention, and frustrate the reader. This is why we're always slicing and dicing, cutting stuff out.

However, issues also have to be interesting, evoking scenarios and images. This is often why we're adding stuff on.

Let's look at a cut I made:

"It is a shame that all the nookular waste that our reactors have been producing' is building up." Says Snidely Industries CEO Cornelius Davidson Snidely while twirling his handlebar mustache. "Why a thinktank study we conducted a while back shows that this waste could be sold to consumers by grinding it up and putting it in their food. And that will provide my company with tons of easy money. Why I think that would give them a wonderful healthy glow" His secretary runs into your office and whispers into his ear. "WHAT! Those starving orphans we subjected to feeding radioactive waste did not glow, and they all died horrible deaths from radiation sickness? Well you learn something new every day. Regardless of that minor problem with the people dying horrible deaths from radiation sickness it is still a good idea because with the money this will make, I can ensure a healthy kickback for you too. Think bout' it for a minute."


became this:

"I feel ashamed to be offering you an even better and easier solution, one that won't cost you a thing and might even make you a little money," simpers Snidely Industries CEO Cornelius Davidson Snidely while twirling his handlebar moustache. "Why, this waste could be sold to some very special international clients who would be very discreet about where they bought it from. I just recently sold them a batch of suitcases and plenty of dynamite: your waste products are the last missing ingredient they need. Dirty money from dirty bombs? No... clean profit margins from a clean sale!"


Some of the edits there are for obvious reasons: punctuation and capitalisation fixes, and so on. However, I also sliced this from six lines to four lines. Initially, I did this slice while retaining the "add it to food" premise, but discussion with the editing team led to a group feeling that this lacked verisimilitude.
So why four lines instead of six? Is it because I don't think people can read six lines? Clearly not, or I wouldn't be writing this damn essay.

Rather, it was a question of redundancy. 'Villainous and quirky CEO' had been quickly established in the original text. The 'makes people glow' joke was repeated, which is like a comedian repeating the punch line because he thought the audience hadn't got the joke. Basically, too many words, not enough ideas.

My belief here is that you have limited space - two to five lines. Every bit of information and every piece of humour should be sold in as few words as possible.

But to contrast... Let's look at an expansion I made:

After your decision to use nuclear energy, the radioactive byproducts has been piling up in temporary storage. Soon the storage space will run out, which would force the reactors to shut down.


became:

Nuclear energy, the source of much of your growing nation's electricity, has been generating radioactive waste as a by-product. As the shadows cast by the mounting piles of warning-emblazoned concrete casks grow ever longer, a concerned populace is looking to you for a more permanent solution.


So to this example, I added lots of words. Why?

First off, I did do some redundancy snipping. Though I'm guilty of it myself, I believe it is lazy writing to start issue set-ups with "recently" and "after". All issue premises relate to something that has happened recently - if we can avoid these redundant phrases, that's a good thing.

So why did I add stuff? Well, for a while, I didn't.

This was how it looked for most of the editing process:

Nuclear energy, the source of much of your growing nation's electricity, has been generating radioactive waste as a by-product. Currently this is being stored in a mounting pile of concrete casks next to the power stations, but this can only be a temporary measure.


I'd added some information, in explaining how temporary storage works with radioactive waste, and retained the original information in less words.

However, while this transmitted information, it wasn't fun to read. Another editor suggested I needed to make it less boring. I didn't want to blow it up to three lines with useless padding, nor did I want to complicate the scenario by adding more narrative. However, my colleague was right: it was a weak opening, and unengaging.

So in expansion, I tried to go back to my GMing days, and think how I would describe the scenario to my roleplaying players. Something to create a mental image, with a little heavy handed symbolism thrown in, but still not going too crazy on prose.

So that's how we ended up where we did, and "the shadows cast by the mounting piles of warning-emblazoned concrete casks grow ever longer" is a phrase that I'm very proud of, and will remain so, whether it receives criticism or not.


Repetition

Again?

Yes, but in this case, I'm talking about the repetition within redundancy. I think a great self-edit technique is to back up over and issue, and see if something has been said already. If so, no need to say it in a different way.

Wait, didn't I just cover this when I was talking about redundancy?

Editors note: Remove this section.
editors like linguistic ambiguity more than most people

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Drasnia
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Postby Drasnia » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:30 pm

Good ideas. I find myself writing very redundant sentences (and even paragraphs!) in many of my original draftings. Redundancy - and conversely concision - is probably what I edit the most at the beginning before posting on the forum. I have a lot of thoughts and examples of this which I'll talk about when I'm not on mobile.
Last edited by Drasnia on Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:53 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:"Mathematics is the purest of all fields of study. Mathematics is the secret language of the universe. Mathematics is what you need to succeed."

Politicians do this a lot, because they know the power of the triple repetition and the three item list. Listen to any competent politician making a speech, and you'll see these triple drops all over the damn place.
Ah, but do politicians know what's so special about the number three? No, you need a mathematician for that.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:What I don't like, however, is repetition that occurs when a speaker can't think of a better word. This gives the appearance of lower intellect: fine if depicting a character that is being depicted as of lower intellect, fine if lower intellect is what you want to transmit, but not so fine if we're trying to set up a scenario in a coherent way.

(Hey look, I did an overlapping triple repetition!)
This I agree with. I think most people do. I've often pointed out "hey, you've reused the same word in an awkward manner" when critiquing other people's writing, and I can't recall having ever gotten into an argument with a writer that didn't want to change it. Usually it's just "oops, I missed that, thanks".

Proximity matters. Reusing the same word from paragraph to paragraph to remind the reader what you're talking about is okay, using it twice in the same sentence is awkward unless there's a good reason to do it.

But as in the other thread, I wouldn't claim to have a set of foolproof rules that tell you which repetition is acceptable and which isn't. It's just an intuitive feel I get on reading something, which can vary from person to person. But like I said, authors are usually pretty cooperative about the whole thing.

There's also the simple matter that these details are often minor enough that even if you don't strictly need to change the wording, there's often little harm in doing so. Just don't descend so far into flowery-thesaurus-speak that readers lose track of what you're talking about.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Initially, I did this slice while retaining the "add it to food" premise, but discussion with the editing team led to a group feeling that this lacked verisimilitude.
Woo, I won!

I told the author that was a silly premise, but he didn't listen.

Thinking it was a stupid option also explains why I didn't care much about helping it flow better, since I was just thinking "yeah sure, ignore me and submit it, I'll just let it get cut in the editing room".

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Drasnia
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Postby Drasnia » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:18 pm

I told you I'd get to this, and just like me, it took longer than I estimated. :P

When I write my first draft of issues, my options can stretch as long as seven, eight, or even nine sentences each. I will give each speaker two or three different arguments. This helps me brainstorm and really solidify each option. I'm able to find the strongest argument for each side and then work with them.

At this point in the drafting stage, I take Shakespeare's famous quote "Brevity is the soul of wit" to heart. I remove everything except the strongest argument, and then pare it down. All the redundancy that there used to be is now gone. Let's take as an example, one of the options from my submitted draft, Repatriation Vacation:

[option]"I never liked those taxes to begin with," opines @@RANDOMNAME@@, a random stranger with bulging pockets, who seems to have mistakenly wandered into your private meeting chambers. "I have a better solution to the problem than a 'temporary tax break.' I just walked past all those fancy printing press machines the Ministry of Finance uses to print cash. Why not just print a little bit extra? That's better than stealing from hardworking corporations."


Believe it or not, it started out as:

[option]"I never liked those repatriation taxes to begin with," opines @@RANDOMNAME@@, a random stranger with bulging pockets, who seems to have mistakenly wandered into your private meeting chambers. "Sure, temporary tax breaks are nice for folks like myself, but they don't do that much good for the economy. I have a better solution to the problem than a 'temporary tax break.' Let's just print more money. This would allow the government to run larger deficits during recessions and stimulate the economy to give us bigger booms. I just walked past all those fancy printing press machines the Ministry of Finance uses to print cash. Why not just print a little bit extra? That's better than stealing from hardworking corporations."


That original option was a lot longer, and rather wordy. First, I isolated the the best argument, or rather just cut the argument down to its core - printing money. Then I rephrased a lot of it to get rid of the word 'tax' so many times. After a couple cycles of this, I finally got to the option that made it into the thread.

Interestingly enough, I ended up doing the opposite of the above with my issue draft, Syntax Destruction. My first draft of it had the Greenspan stand-in saying:

"It has been demonstrated," Minister Stanley Greensen replies during an interview, "that markets affect an unexpected multitude of industries at even the slightest hint of an impending change. Thus, it behooves those knowledgeable in its idiosyncrasies to act in a manner that is least likely to upset the precarious balance between bears and bulls, be they platitudes, or omissions. Indeed, one who needlessly or voluntarily undermines the status reveals their ineptitude. They will be dismissed by the knowledgeable majority, of course, thus not necessitating any external provocation."


I thought it was still not obfuscated enough, so, with the help of another friend, I ended up with an option that brilliantly disregarded every single issue writing rule:

[option]"It has been demonstrated," Minister Allen Redbridge replies during an interview, "that markets affect an unexpected multitude of industries at even the slightest suspicion of an impending perturbation. Thus, it behooves those knowledgeable in its idiosyncrasies to uphold their responsibilities in defending such precipitous gateways to knowledge, and acting in such a manner of least reaction, to satisfy their due diligence to avoid creating a condition which could potentially upset the precarious balance between bears and bulls, be they platitudes, or omissions. Indeed, one who acts in contravention to the aforementioned manner also acts against their own best interests, and thereby undermines status as well as dispels their cloak of competence. Such a transgressor shall be dismissed by the knowledgeable majority, of course, thus not necessitating any external provocation."


As for repetition, Candlewhisper already noted how politicians use it so effectively. However, the Rule of Three isn't the only way to do it. Just look at Justin Trudeau's constant use of the word 'diversity' to win the election. Repeating a buzzword can work extremely well, however I have never attempted it in an issue.

You already covered it rather well how repetition can be easily fixed. I don't think I can contribute anything meaningful to the conversation, so I'll just shut up for now :P
See You Space Cowboy...

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:31 pm

Another aspect of redundancy is that old "show, don't tell" adage. If you've already shown something, you don't also need to tell it. And while it's rarely a good idea to tell something twice, it's sometimes possible to show something twice in two different ways (like, having a character act out two different behaviors that are both stereotypical for a particular character type), strengthening the impression without coming over as repetitive.

Drasnia wrote:As for repetition, Candlewhisper already noted how politicians use it so effectively. However, the Rule of Three isn't the only way to do it. Just look at Justin Trudeau's constant use of the word 'diversity' to win the election. Repeating a buzzword can work extremely well, however I have never attempted it in an issue.
The "Rule of Three" is really the "Rule of Three or More". It just gets shortened to the "Rule of Three" by speakers with short attention spans (or who expect that their listeners do).

There are a couple of issues that get milage out of the same keywords being repeated in multiple options: #030 and #138. This, of course, parodies the kind of debate where everyone agrees that the answer is obvious, but just disagrees on what the obvious answer is ;)
Last edited by Trotterdam on Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.


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