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[SUBMITTED] Does @@NAME@@ Dream of Electric Sheep?

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Caracasus
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[SUBMITTED] Does @@NAME@@ Dream of Electric Sheep?

Postby Caracasus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:34 am

Description: An organisation known as "Our Friends Electric" has recently garnered media attention after it unveiled early development plans for a "digital afterlife" where customers can upload biographical information and recordings from social media to create a digital avatar that would "live" on after the customer's death.

Validity: High scientific advancement, not banned the internet, high information technology


[option] "This... this is the holy grail of humanity we are working towards" claims Our Friends Electric spokesperson @@RANDOMNAME@@. "In a few years, we will all live on long after we are dead, or rather an avatar that shares some of the same memories and personality traits as us can. Imagine if you could continue to talk to your dear departed! Admittedly at the moment we're not quite there, but with a little more funding we can make artificial intelligences that are almost indistinguishable from the deceased person! At some point in the future, after we've sorted out some of the finer details, everyone who can afford it will be able to talk to almost perfect electronic replicas of long-dead relatives. That's not creepy at all, right?"
[effect] The nation's citizens are often berated by electronic ghosts of departed relatives for "not calling often enough"

[option] "Preposterous!" harangues high priest @@RANDOMMALENAME@@ of @@FAITH@@. "Down with this sort of thing! This is no afterlife. No matter how convincing they are able to make these electronic ghosts are not some sort of soul, they're a copy! There is only one afterlife, and that is the one that is accessed through a lifetime of prayer and religious belief. To claim otherwise is blasphemy! Outlaw this company and crack down hard on the causes of blasphemy. Technology should exist to serve a higher calling, not the hubris of man. I say we hold an inquisition into this blasphemous information technology industry to root out all evil."
[effect] Sinister hooded priests routinely arrest software developers for blasphemy

[option] "The fact is whatever Our Friends Electric claim, we simply don't have anywhere near the computing power or level of technology to run that many of these... electronic afterlives" claims software developer and noted utilitarian @@RANDOMNAME@@. "This technology is interesting, but given its limitations and the fact that it is in very early stages of development, we should be using it to benefit the whole country. It should be used to preserve the minds of the great scientists and thinkers of @@NAME@@, not those who can simply pay enough. That way our scientists can continue to help @@NAME@@ long after their death."
[effect] The nation's scientists are required to undergo regular brain scans in an attempt to preserve their intellects after death

[option]"Wait - what?" pipes up @@RANDOMNAME@@, popular philosopher and author. "Why haven't you asked us about this? What happens if someone is uploaded into an avatar at the point of death, only to make a full recovery? Who is the 'real' person? What does 'real' mean in this context? It's exactly the kind of philosophical quandary that has been discussed time and time again in universities up and down the land! Admittedly no-one ever thought that science would advance far enough for quandaries like this to actually happen but now that it has I think that the best course of action would be to establish some sort of philosophical committee to provide guidance on these instances when science starts to change and alter who we are as people."
[effect]philosophers delay the development of new technologies with interminable debates into the nature of the soul

[option] "That... that gives me an idea" muses your chief government adviser. "Now stop me if this sounds a little... insane but do these electronic avatars need to know they're dead? I mean, running the country and everything is boring thankless work that often goes wrong. What if we grab a bunch of moderately intelligent people, upload their consciousnesses and lock them in some virtual reality where they work on developing responses to the kinds of issues our government faces? We can collate the data from all of them and work out the best solutions for any problem. All we need to do is convince the electronic avatars that they're playing some sort of game or something... I'll work out all the details later"
[effect] You might only exist as an electronic ghost that thinks it is playing a government simulation game
Last edited by Caracasus on Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:08 pm, edited 24 times in total.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:36 am

I LOVE the forth option, but don't see why the rest would be a matter for a leader. If the issue is about whetehr or not to legalise it, this would be done by some senator far lower ranking than the leader. Unless you're totaliterian AND autocratic, but don't think that applies to too many nations
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:39 am

Australian Republic wrote:I LOVE the forth option, but don't see why the rest would be a matter for a leader. If the issue is about whetehr or not to legalise it, this would be done by some senator far lower ranking than the leader. Unless you're totaliterian AND autocratic, but don't think that applies to too many nations


Yeah I must admit I wrote it from the fourth option back. The first one is asking for more funding, the second to outlaw it (and let's face it there's more than a few issues with NS that allow you to act like an autocratic state even if you're not). The third is more about bringing it under government control. Perhaps I will make the distinctions clearer.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:37 am

Caracasus wrote:
Australian Republic wrote:I LOVE the forth option, but don't see why the rest would be a matter for a leader. If the issue is about whetehr or not to legalise it, this would be done by some senator far lower ranking than the leader. Unless you're totaliterian AND autocratic, but don't think that applies to too many nations


Yeah I must admit I wrote it from the fourth option back. The first one is asking for more funding, the second to outlaw it (and let's face it there's more than a few issues with NS that allow you to act like an autocratic state even if you're not). The third is more about bringing it under government control. Perhaps I will make the distinctions clearer.

If you wanna use, why don't you just write an issue about who will run the country when you take a holiday, or something? Actually, that would be a biprilliant idea-you need a break, so what happens then
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hard-Core Centrist. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.
All in-character posts are fictional and have no actual connection to any real governments
You don't appreciate the good police officers until you've lived amongst the dregs of society and/or had them as customers
From Greek ancestry Orthodox Christian
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:00 am

Australian Republic wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Yeah I must admit I wrote it from the fourth option back. The first one is asking for more funding, the second to outlaw it (and let's face it there's more than a few issues with NS that allow you to act like an autocratic state even if you're not). The third is more about bringing it under government control. Perhaps I will make the distinctions clearer.

If you wanna use, why don't you just write an issue about who will run the country when you take a holiday, or something? Actually, that would be a biprilliant idea-you need a break, so what happens then


Mostly I wanted to explore the "electronic afterlife" companies that are developing at the moment. Perhaps I should add more philosophical possibilities.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:02 am

Caracasus wrote:
Australian Republic wrote:If you wanna use, why don't you just write an issue about who will run the country when you take a holiday, or something? Actually, that would be a biprilliant idea-you need a break, so what happens then


Mostly I wanted to explore the "electronic afterlife" companies that are developing at the moment. Perhaps I should add more philosophical possibilities.

Yea
Hard-Core Centrist. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.
All in-character posts are fictional and have no actual connection to any real governments
You don't appreciate the good police officers until you've lived amongst the dregs of society and/or had them as customers
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:29 am

Australian Republic wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Mostly I wanted to explore the "electronic afterlife" companies that are developing at the moment. Perhaps I should add more philosophical possibilities.

Yea


Added one.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:19 pm

Caracasus wrote:the "electronic afterlife" companies that are developing at the moment
Wait, what?

Technology isn't nearly at the level that uploading a faithful representation of one's brain into a computer would be possible.

NationStates does have some futuristic technology in its issues, particularly AI - and if you can make an AI from scratch, making an AI copy of an existing human may also be within your capabilities - but I feel that defeating death is a really big deal, and should not be treated lightly just because it'd make for one interesting issue.

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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:50 pm

Trotterdam wrote:
Caracasus wrote:the "electronic afterlife" companies that are developing at the moment
Wait, what?

Technology isn't nearly at the level that uploading a faithful representation of one's brain into a computer would be possible.

NationStates does have some futuristic technology in its issues, particularly AI - and if you can make an AI from scratch, making an AI copy of an existing human may also be within your capabilities - but I feel that defeating death is a really big deal, and should not be treated lightly just because it'd make for one interesting issue.



I will alter it and make it clearer, but this is loosely based on existing companies that put together an avatar of you based on your social network feeds. I'll make it clearer that it's not actually cheating death - it's producing a broadly accurate replica of your persona. I will make that clearer though as you are correct.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/s ... death.html
Last edited by Caracasus on Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:15 pm

Okay, nevermind death - I want to see them try to make a chatbot that can critique issue drafts as well as I can. Manage that, and I'll acknowledge that their product isn't a completely worthless scam.

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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:19 pm

Indeed. At best these companies are run by well-meaning fools, at worst by scam artists. It did, however, make me think about the possibilities. I've edited it to make the distinction clearer, and managed to cram another 80's pop reference in.
Last edited by Caracasus on Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:01 am

Does @@NAME@@ Dream Of Electric Sheep? is the obvious title in my opinion.

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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:34 am

Hmmm... Yes that would work better. I was contemplating using something similar but couldn't figure out the best way to work it in. Cheers!


Any other feedback?
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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:26 am

Caracasus wrote:Indeed. At best these companies are run by well-meaning fools, at worst by scam artists.
Honestly, if people's average social media posts are so shallow that nobody would notice if they were replaced with bots, the most relevant lesson I would take from this is to deepen my loathing for social media.

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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:39 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Caracasus wrote:Indeed. At best these companies are run by well-meaning fools, at worst by scam artists.
Honestly, if people's average social media posts are so shallow that nobody would notice if they were replaced with bots, the most relevant lesson I would take from this is to deepen my loathing for social media.


Yup! Not a fan of it myself either. Still, interesting concept. Any further feedback on this?
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:08 am

Give me a second
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:10 am

Option 3 effect-change dead to deceased. Option 4-I don't get it. It goes without saying that the "real" person is the living one
Hard-Core Centrist. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.
All in-character posts are fictional and have no actual connection to any real governments
You don't appreciate the good police officers until you've lived amongst the dregs of society and/or had them as customers
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:14 am

Australian Republic wrote:Option 3 effect-change dead to deceased. Option 4-I don't get it. It goes without saying that the "real" person is the living one


Does it? Depends on what you mean by "real". It's sort of like the Ship of Theseus thought experiment.

Theseus has a fine ship, however he decides to replace parts of it occasionally. So he removes the mast, chucks it in the sea and replaces it. Same with the sails, rigging, all the planks from the hull. Eventually he has replaced, and chucked in the sea, every part of the origonal ship.

The current carries these parts (all of them, mind) to an island where a shipwrecked man lives. He's an expert boat builder, so over the years that Theseus chucks out and replaces parts, he collects them and puts them back together.

Which is the original ship?
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Watuhuru
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Postby Watuhuru » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:20 am

I like this issue, and definitely adds some flavor to the HTD nations. As for the "Ship of Theseus" problem, aren't both equally real?
Warning! This nation uses a con-lang, and one that I barely understand at that. DO NOT USE GOOGLE TRANSLATE FOR FUCKS SAKE!


MT nation using most NS stats. A 6.1.6 or 13.8333... nation according to this scale.
Stats ignored: Population, GDP, and GDP per capita.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:21 am

Caracasus wrote:
Australian Republic wrote:Option 3 effect-change dead to deceased. Option 4-I don't get it. It goes without saying that the "real" person is the living one


Does it? Depends on what you mean by "real". It's sort of like the Ship of Theseus thought experiment.

Theseus has a fine ship, however he decides to replace parts of it occasionally. So he removes the mast, chucks it in the sea and replaces it. Same with the sails, rigging, all the planks from the hull. Eventually he has replaced, and chucked in the sea, every part of the origonal ship.

The current carries these parts (all of them, mind) to an island where a shipwrecked man lives. He's an expert boat builder, so over the years that Theseus chucks out and replaces parts, he collects them and puts them back together.

Which is the original ship?

Yes, I have heard that paradox and have heard it used on organ transplants, but in this situation, it doesn't apply.
Say for example, the uploader's AI posted "I love peanut butter", but in reality, the person hates peanut butter, then obviously the "real" status would be "I love peanut butter
Hard-Core Centrist. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.
All in-character posts are fictional and have no actual connection to any real governments
You don't appreciate the good police officers until you've lived amongst the dregs of society and/or had them as customers
From Greek ancestry Orthodox Christian
Issues and WA Proposals Written By Me |Issue Ideas You Can Steal
I want to commission infrastructure in Australia in real life, if you can help me, please telegram me. I am dead serious

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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:25 am

Australian Republic wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Does it? Depends on what you mean by "real". It's sort of like the Ship of Theseus thought experiment.

Theseus has a fine ship, however he decides to replace parts of it occasionally. So he removes the mast, chucks it in the sea and replaces it. Same with the sails, rigging, all the planks from the hull. Eventually he has replaced, and chucked in the sea, every part of the origonal ship.

The current carries these parts (all of them, mind) to an island where a shipwrecked man lives. He's an expert boat builder, so over the years that Theseus chucks out and replaces parts, he collects them and puts them back together.

Which is the original ship?

Yes, I have heard that paradox and have heard it used on organ transplants, but in this situation, it doesn't apply.
Say for example, the uploader's AI posted "I love peanut butter", but in reality, the person hates peanut butter, then obviously the "real" status would be "I love peanut butter


Would it? What if they loved peanut butter before they were involved in a serious accident that affected part of their brain - following the accident they now can't stand the smell of peanuts. Who is the real person then - the one before the crash or the one after? Does the new artificial intelligence ghost exist in its own right?
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Watuhuru
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Postby Watuhuru » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:26 am

Australian Republic wrote:Yes, I have heard that paradox and have heard it used on organ transplants, but in this situation, it doesn't apply.
Say for example, the uploader's AI posted "I love peanut butter", but in reality, the person hates peanut butter, then obviously the "real" status would be "I love peanut butter

Ah, but the AI thinks it is you. It knows that you don't like peanut butter (which, incidentally makes you the worst person ever), and as such won't post something like that. Unless you lied on the internet, but who would do that?
Warning! This nation uses a con-lang, and one that I barely understand at that. DO NOT USE GOOGLE TRANSLATE FOR FUCKS SAKE!


MT nation using most NS stats. A 6.1.6 or 13.8333... nation according to this scale.
Stats ignored: Population, GDP, and GDP per capita.
If you can't run your nation how you want to, ask yourself why.

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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:29 am

I've altered the statement to make it more about questioning what is (or isn't) real, and what it all means. AR is right in that the origonal didn't quite fit.

Still I think we have concluded that a dislike of peanut butter registers a shade under committing a war crime when it comes to ethics and morals.
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Watuhuru
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Postby Watuhuru » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:30 am

Caracasus wrote:Would it? What if they loved peanut butter before they were involved in a serious accident that affected part of their brain - following the accident they now can't stand the smell of peanuts. Who is the real person then - the one before the crash or the one after? Does the new artificial intelligence ghost exist in its own right?

Well, now we are getting down to the details. Do theses AIs have true free will, even if that free will is based on the personality and memories of another person. If they do, then yes, they are people in their own rights. They are capable of making their own personal decisions and have their own likes, dislikes, and may sometimes be completely random. Of course, I could of just been describing Sims, so who knows.
Warning! This nation uses a con-lang, and one that I barely understand at that. DO NOT USE GOOGLE TRANSLATE FOR FUCKS SAKE!


MT nation using most NS stats. A 6.1.6 or 13.8333... nation according to this scale.
Stats ignored: Population, GDP, and GDP per capita.
If you can't run your nation how you want to, ask yourself why.

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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:32 am

Watuhuru wrote:
Caracasus wrote:Would it? What if they loved peanut butter before they were involved in a serious accident that affected part of their brain - following the accident they now can't stand the smell of peanuts. Who is the real person then - the one before the crash or the one after? Does the new artificial intelligence ghost exist in its own right?

Well, now we are getting down to the details. Do theses AIs have true free will, even if that free will is based on the personality and memories of another person. If they do, then yes, they are people in their own rights. They are capable of making their own personal decisions and have their own likes, dislikes, and may sometimes be completely random. Of course, I could of just been describing Sims, so who knows.



Indeed - which is kind of the philosopher's argument. That the technology throws up too many questions to be used as is - and that anything like this needs to be debated.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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