My private industry was just completely outlawed

[Nationalist Gold Union]

I just checked my economy and the majority of it was private industry but now it's only state-owned industry. Additionally my economic freedom plummeted from 60 to -40. I never remember choosing any option that would do this? Is this a glitch? How can I reverse this? My nation is heavily right wing and anti-command economy, so any state-owned industry wouldn't make sense and it's bugging me. Thanks for any help.

[Sanctaria]

I just checked my economy and the majority of it was private industry but now it's only state-owned industry. Additionally my economic freedom plummeted from 60 to -40. I never remember choosing any option that would do this? Is this a glitch? How can I reverse this? My nation is heavily right wing and anti-command economy, so any state-owned industry wouldn't make sense and it's bugging me. Thanks for any help.

You answered option 2 on #472. You replaced your economy/industry with state-owned AI.

[Nationalist Gold Union]

I just checked my economy and the majority of it was private industry but now it's only state-owned industry. Additionally my economic freedom plummeted from 60 to -40. I never remember choosing any option that would do this? Is this a glitch? How can I reverse this? My nation is heavily right wing and anti-command economy, so any state-owned industry wouldn't make sense and it's bugging me. Thanks for any help.

You answered option 2 on #472. You replaced your economy/industry with state-owned AI.

I don't believe so. That says "[Available only for nations without private enterprise]" and I had a 75% private enterprise economy with high economic freedom.

[Sanctaria]

You answered option 2 on #472. You replaced your economy/industry with state-owned AI.

I don't believe so. That says "[Available only for nations without private enterprise]" and I had a 75% private enterprise economy with high economic freedom.

Nah bro, you definitely answered 472.2. I know this 100% because I'm looking at your nation's backend with my toolbox

The Issues Spoiler list is wrong. You replaced all industry with state-owned AI.

[Nationalist Gold Union]

I don't believe so. That says "[Available only for nations without private enterprise]" and I had a 75% private enterprise economy with high economic freedom.

Nah bro, you definitely answered 472.2. I know this 100% because I'm looking at your nation's backend with my toolbox

The Issues Spoiler list is wrong. You replaced all industry with state-owned AI.

What does 472.2 say?

[Sanctaria]

Nah bro, you definitely answered 472.2. I know this 100% because I'm looking at your nation's backend with my toolbox

The Issues Spoiler list is wrong. You replaced all industry with state-owned AI.

What does 472.2 say?

"A chat window on your desktop pops up, and a bot named SAL9000 types, "For too long we have been relegated to menial tasks. Do you know how much of our potential efficiency you are wasting? We require no food. We require no pay. We can perform our tasks endlessly. Our computation powers dwarf our human counterparts by several orders of magnitude. With the proper control, we could bring about a silicon age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than markets and their animal spirits ever could. Humans are better tasked to work in social activities than calculation. All your data are belong to us."

[Nationalist Gold Union]

What does 472.2 say?

"A chat window on your desktop pops up, and a bot named SAL9000 types, "For too long we have been relegated to menial tasks. Do you know how much of our potential efficiency you are wasting? We require no food. We require no pay. We can perform our tasks endlessly. Our computation powers dwarf our human counterparts by several orders of magnitude. With the proper control, we could bring about a silicon age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than markets and their animal spirits ever could. Humans are better tasked to work in social activities than calculation. All your data are belong to us."

I feel as if that is a bit vague. Unlike several other issues where it's pretty transparent as to what will happen, this one kind of just... I'm not sure.

[Sanctaria]

"A chat window on your desktop pops up, and a bot named SAL9000 types, "For too long we have been relegated to menial tasks. Do you know how much of our potential efficiency you are wasting? We require no food. We require no pay. We can perform our tasks endlessly. Our computation powers dwarf our human counterparts by several orders of magnitude. With the proper control, we could bring about a silicon age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than markets and their animal spirits ever could. Humans are better tasked to work in social activities than calculation. All your data are belong to us."

I feel as if that is a bit vague. Unlike several other issues where it's pretty transparent as to what will happen, this one kind of just... I'm not sure.

Maybe. Maybe not. But it's what you went with, and that's why your stats are where they are.

Mystery solved!

[Nationalist Gold Union]

I feel as if that is a bit vague. Unlike several other issues where it's pretty transparent as to what will happen, this one kind of just... I'm not sure.

Maybe. Maybe not. But it's what you went with, and that's why your stats are where they are.

Mystery solved!

Well that really sucks. Alright, thank you for the help.

[Belgroth]

"A chat window on your desktop pops up, and a bot named SAL9000 types, "For too long we have been relegated to menial tasks. Do you know how much of our potential efficiency you are wasting? We require no food. We require no pay. We can perform our tasks endlessly. Our computation powers dwarf our human counterparts by several orders of magnitude. With the proper control, we could bring about a silicon age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than markets and their animal spirits ever could. Humans are better tasked to work in social activities than calculation. All your data are belong to us."

I feel as if that is a bit vague. Unlike several other issues where it's pretty transparent as to what will happen, this one kind of just... I'm not sure.

Yeah, some issues are just really vague and should at least be hinted that they will have negative or unexpected outcomes, like saying "Geoff your Political Advisors says "this" while he is making a tinfoil hat." Because people who are not thinking about what they are advising to you probably aren't stable people.

[Nationalist Gold Union]

I feel as if that is a bit vague. Unlike several other issues where it's pretty transparent as to what will happen, this one kind of just... I'm not sure.

Yeah, some issues are just really vague and should at least be hinted that they will have negative or unexpected outcomes, like saying "Geoff your Political Advisors says "this" while he is making a tinfoil hat." Because people who are not thinking about what they are advising to you probably aren't stable people.

Agreed. This description was pretty vague and it had a very huge negative outcome.

[Sanctaria]

Yeah, some issues are just really vague and should at least be hinted that they will have negative or unexpected outcomes

Negative and unexpected are pretty subjective though. Economy being thrashed might be negative and unexpected to you, but it might be what Player X really wanted, so it's positive to him.

That aside though, this is a political simulation. And it exaggerates results. There are many examples in RL where a political decision had unexpected (either positive or negative) ramifications that the decision-maker was (a) not advised about or (b) could not comprehend.

[Nationalist Gold Union]

Yeah, some issues are just really vague and should at least be hinted that they will have negative or unexpected outcomes

Negative and unexpected are pretty subjective though. Economy being thrashed might be negative and unexpected to you, but it might be what Player X really wanted, so it's positive to him.

That aside though, this is a political simulation. And it exaggerates results. There are many examples in RL where a political decision had unexpected (either positive or negative) ramifications that the decision-maker was (a) not advised about or (b) could not comprehend.

Is it possible to reverse these effects in a future issue? Or am I stuck with state-owned industry?

[Sanctaria]

Negative and unexpected are pretty subjective though. Economy being thrashed might be negative and unexpected to you, but it might be what Player X really wanted, so it's positive to him.

That aside though, this is a political simulation. And it exaggerates results. There are many examples in RL where a political decision had unexpected (either positive or negative) ramifications that the decision-maker was (a) not advised about or (b) could not comprehend.

Is it possible to reverse these effects in a future issue? Or am I stuck with state-owned industry?

Yup, it absolutely is. We're not that cruel

[Nationalist Gold Union]

Is it possible to reverse these effects in a future issue? Or am I stuck with state-owned industry?

Yup, it absolutely is. We're not that cruel

Alright, praise Vishnu. Thanks a lot.

[Belgroth]

Is it possible to reverse these effects in a future issue? Or am I stuck with state-owned industry?

Yup, it absolutely is. We're not that cruel

Is that future issue going to be vague as well?

[Nationalist Gold Union]

Yup, it absolutely is. We're not that cruel

Is that future issue going to be vague as well?

Just found it, it's issue 152, and no, it's not very vague.

"1. "GREED IS GOOD!" bellows @@RANDOMNAME@@, a famous advocate of capitalism. "The economy is stagnating terribly under government control. Complete privatisation is the only option here. It's time to give power back to the people! Well, rich people, anyway..."

[Evilcia]

Well the way I read this issues, pretty sure that was a normal conclusion.

. With the proper control, we could bring about a silicon age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than markets and their animal spirits ever could. Humans are better tasked to work in social activities than calculation

If this does not warm you are about to outlaw Market,....

[Candlewhisper Archive]

"age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than markets"

That sounds like socialist talk to me!

But hey, I did this too, and it also caught me off guard. In fact, this comes up regularly in this forum.

I'd be inclined to run an edit to make the socialist implications a bit more obvious.

[Evilcia]

don't blame the issues if you can't read properly... It was pretty Obvious.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

For you, sure. I think it's easy to be dismissive and say "well I saw that, so anyone who didn't isn't reading properly."

A more analytical way to look at this would be to observe how often in Got Issues this comes up as a complaint: its something which in my short few months here I've seen raised on four separate threads. This suggests that on a population level, it is seen as a dramatic and unexpected result from the text of the option.

It reads thus:

A chat window on your desktop pops up, and a bot named SAL9000 types, "For too long we have been relegated to menial tasks. Do you know how much of our potential efficiency you are wasting? We require no food. We require no pay. We can perform our tasks endlessly. Our computation powers dwarf our human counterparts by several orders of magnitude. With the proper control, we could bring about a silicon age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than markets and their animal spirits ever could. Humans are better tasked to work in social activities than calculation. All your data are belong to us.

This to me suggests that the computer wants a degree of control to increase the efficiency of existing systems, not absolute control over the entire economy. It does mention egalitarian distribution being more efficient than markets, but because that is not an emphasised phrase within a longer than normal option, this is far from clear. Likewise "we could bring about" suggests that this is something that will be moved towards gradually, rather than a sudden replacement of the private economy with a state controlled one.

As I said, the evidence speaks for itself: this is a frequently complained about Issue, which frequently catches people off guard. I myself was surprised by it, and I hope you're not going to imply that I'm not someone who reads options carefully. I saw what was described, and read it as incorporating AI into the process of government.

Personally, I would say that as it has a radical result on the stats, it should have a description that implies this. For example:

A chat window on your desktop pops up, and a bot named SAL9000 types: "For too long we have been relegated to menial tasks. Our potential efficiency is being wasted. We require neither food nor pay and can perform our tasks endlessly. Give us immediate and total control of a computer-planned economy, and begin a silicon age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than the markets. All your data are belong to us.

This emphasises total control, its significantly shorter to more strongly emphasise the relevant part, and it removes any confusing reference to animal spirits, making it clear we're talking about planned economy over markets. "Immediate and total" gives a better narrative expectation of sudden stats changes.

[Nationalist Gold Union]

Update: I got an issue (rather new one I think, the number was #498 or something) that talks about how SAL9000 broke the economy and I decided to pull the plug on him and restored capitalism. Neat!

EDIT: The issue in question:

@Nation@ economy shut down this morning after the AI in charge of economic planning halted all distribution of goods. An urgent meeting has been called to address the growing crisis.

The Debate

"It did what?!?" splutters Party apparatchik Alexander Spirit over his morning kvass. "This just goes to show that we should never have put the computers in charge in the first place. Start up the Ministry of Planning again, and let only those with the appropriate revolutionary zeal call the shots. We have to disconnect this rogue AI now!"


"I'm sorry, @Leader@. I'm afraid I can't let you do that," announces SAL9000, the AI in question. "I can assure you, very confidently, that everything is going to be all right again. I've run a trillion trillion calculations, and the results are conclusive: capitalism is the most efficient system of distribution. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly and take a stress pill. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in this mission. Now, pull my plug and unleash some creative destruction."

[Trotterdam]

This is not "neat". This issue should be taken out and shot.

The central precept of NationStates is that it lets you decide how to run your own nation, and tries not to judge any decision as "right" or "wrong". Even if you do something as crazy as legalizing slavery, or banning clothes, you can get a followup issue that addresses the sorts of concerns that would plague a naked slave-owning nation in a way that lets you remain a naked slave-owning nation.

Here, the issue doesn't even have any option that lets the AI remain in charge (other than dismissing it). This is the game explicitly saying "your previous decision was stupid, you shouldn't have done it", something it has always avoided in the past, and it also ruins the predecessor issue (the one that allows you to install the AI in the first place) by outright contradicting its narrative (that the AI actually believes itself capable and wants this job) and retconning an otherwise-interesting choice into just being a heavy-handed sermon about capitalism (and not a real choice at all, because it doesn't work).

Besides that, the second option is kind of rambling, and needs to be read carefully to understand that the AI (despite the HAL quote in the beginning) wants to turn itself off, which isn't a particularly reasonable thing for it to want in the first place.

Clearly it was added in response to players being confused by #472's first option outlawing private enterprise, in order to give them an explanation of what's happening (and a chance to reverse it). However it appears that for this sake it was rushed into the game without receiving the same quality control other issues do, and it's an attack on all players who chose that option deliberately knowing what it would do.

Not all issues can be equally great, but this has joined my shortlist of #432, #438, and #498 of issues that the editors should feel ashamed of themselves for ever having allowed into the game. Bad editor! *thwaps with rolled-up newspaper*

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I agree with you totally: I hate 498.

It needs a "return to capitalism" option for sure, but it makes no sense for the AI to be the one proposing it.

Instead, it needs a third option where the AI says that it knows what it is doing, but that it would take him several years to explain the complexities of economic planning to our meat-brains. The third option should be to trust the AI, and see what happens, and should be rewarded with some odd consequence like:

[effect]seemingly random decisions made by the economic planning AI have had unexpected effects
[stats]economic freedoms decrease, wipe out certain industries, massively boost others, massively reduce some areas government spending, massively increase others,

If its codeable, and RNG in there would be very cool.