[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects Since New Update

[Drasnia]

Anyway, the other one had to do with people's rights to shoot tresspassers. I decided that homeowners had the right to defend their property by killing burglars and, again, my civil rights went down. Now I can understand this one, sort of, because it has to do with the rights of the trespassers, but surely banning defense of property would also decrease civil rights. Perhaps it would make more sense if it had no effect on civil rights

I agree. I think the freedom to shoot trespassers should increase Civil Rights because it involves the exertion of less governmental control over personal conduct.

#CriminalLivesMatter

[Christian Democrats]

I agree. I think the freedom to shoot trespassers should increase Civil Rights because it involves the exertion of less governmental control over personal conduct.

#CriminalLivesMatter

I'm not necessarily giving my personal opinion. Remember that allowing terrorism boosts Political Freedom.

[Surrus]

This seems to be yet another case of random consequences. The choice was basically between "introduce lèse majesté law" and "affirm free speech", I picked option 2, result:: "The paparazzi publicize Royal scandals with the utmost delight."

Stats: bonus to book publishing (magazine sales, ok I get that), intelligence (unfettered discussion makes people sharper, ok), but then: bonuses to income, black market, freedom from tax, and maluses to foreign aid, welfare, business subsid, law enforcement, public transport/education/healtcare, gambling, defense forces, eco-friendliness, info tech, cheese, furniture, baskets, manufacturing and retail...

I get the first two, but the rest seems to be just a clutter of random stats that don't have anything to do, near or far, with the issue at hand. I can live with unintended side effects or backfiring policies, but this is pretty much random and it's undermining the whole point of the game: making choices. I think the game would be improved by focusing the effects of issues on just a handful of stats, that hold some connection with the effect as it is worded.

An industry grew. Your economy grew. That had lots of tiny knock on effects.

This is not in any way unique to this issue, but happens pretty much any time any industry grows in any issue option, ever.

I know, it happens often. But on occasion there are choices that just have a few limited, but clearly related effects. That's always a relief. So it's by no means a matter of simulation, but taste of the editors. I stand by my point that the game would improve from more focused effects. For those who like tiny knock-on effects with questionable causal links to the issue, it's always possible to offer an option to add random noise to the effects of issues.

[Surrus]

So I encountered a pair of issues that had completely nonsensical effects. (I don't remember their numbers though)

The first one had to do with the parents' rights to circumsize their children. I said to ban it and let the children decide for themselves when they get old enough. For some reason the civil rights in my country then fell through the floor. I don't know about anyone else, but that sounds like an increase in civil rights to me.

It sounds like a decrease to me. The government is infringing on parental and religious liberty and substituting its own morals.

Anyway, the other one had to do with people's rights to shoot tresspassers. I decided that homeowners had the right to defend their property by killing burglars and, again, my civil rights went down. Now I can understand this one, sort of, because it has to do with the rights of the trespassers, but surely banning defense of property would also decrease civil rights. Perhaps it would make more sense if it had no effect on civil rights

I agree. I think the freedom to shoot trespassers should increase Civil Rights because it involves the exertion of less governmental control over personal conduct.

Even looking with the most rosy glasses possible at the issue of circumcision, it's still a tradeoff between the rights of the parent and a the rights of the child, and then legalizing circumcision should be neither an increase nor a decrease. Though IMO protection of bodily integrity is a core civil right, minors are still citizens and not property, so therefore they should enjoy protection until they are able to decide for themselves whether they want a circumcision or not: maximizing civil rights means making circumcision legal, but making it illegal to impose it on someone without the capacity to consent. (IMO it's an example of the pervasive US-centric bias, where circumcision is considered normal.)

As for shooting trespassers, again, it's the right on bodily integrity that's paramount where civil rights are concerned, even if those are in conflict or committing other violations of rights. The death penalty doesn't suddenly become liberating because it's decided by a citizen in his living room without due trial.

What the game actually needs, IMO, is a distinction between civil rights and property rights. Making it illegal to shoot people stealing or trespassing would be a decrease in property rights and an increase in civil rights, and vice versa for legalizing it.

[Christian Democrats]

It sounds like a decrease to me. The government is infringing on parental and religious liberty and substituting its own morals.


I agree. I think the freedom to shoot trespassers should increase Civil Rights because it involves the exertion of less governmental control over personal conduct.

Even looking with the most rosy glasses possible at the issue of circumcision, it's still a tradeoff between the rights of the parent and a the rights of the child, and then legalizing circumcision should be neither an increase nor a decrease. Though IMO protection of bodily integrity is a core civil right, minors are still citizens and not property, so therefore they should enjoy protection until they are able to decide for themselves whether they want a circumcision or not: maximizing civil rights means making circumcision legal, but making it illegal to impose it on someone without the capacity to consent. (IMO it's an example of the pervasive US-centric bias, where circumcision is considered normal.)

As for shooting trespassers, again, it's the right on bodily integrity that's paramount where civil rights are concerned, even if those are in conflict or committing other violations of rights. The death penalty doesn't suddenly become liberating because it's decided by a citizen in his living room without due trial.

What the game actually needs, IMO, is a distinction between civil rights and property rights. Making it illegal to shoot people stealing or trespassing would be a decrease in property rights and an increase in civil rights, and vice versa for legalizing it.

For the game, higher Civil Rights tend toward anarchy while lower Civil Rights tend toward totalitarianism. Regardless of your personal views, the criminalization of infant circumcision does involve the exercise of governmental power against people for their conduct. In an anarchy, the government would not ban infant circumcision, so allowing the practice increases Civil Rights.

[Almonaster Nuevo]

Issue 269.1

Why does deciding not to intervene raise taxes?

Yes it's only about 1% on a low-ish base, but I see no reason why they should go up at all.

[File a GHR]

Why did option 242.2 decrease my influence by nearly 10%?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Damn, so it did. You got none of the usual effects, and got that instead.

Seriously weird, will raise it with more knowledgeable editors.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Issue 269.1

Why does deciding not to intervene raise taxes?

Yes it's only about 1% on a low-ish base, but I see no reason why they should go up at all.

Because your economy shrank.

Economic Output
Fracts 51,912.72 → 51,880.57 0.06%

Average Income
Fracts 255,212.24 → 255,054.18 0.06%

Less GDP to tax means X spending needs a higher taxation to support.

Yes, I know the economic model of this game is somewhat simplistic, but basically in NS there's no such thing as a budget deficit or any form of tax but income tax. Your moment to moment government spending is funded by moment to moment income tax.

[[violet]]

Damn, so it did. You got none of the usual effects, and got that instead.

Seriously weird, will raise it with more knowledgeable editors.

I fixed a bug.

The stat changes under "Recent Trends" really do report recent trends, and in some situations it can report recent trends that weren't caused by the issue. In this case, the nation was refounded, and suffered an Influence penalty for its time in the netherworld. It then answered an issue, which reported this Influence drop as a recent trend.

This should no longer happen, nor should a similar situation where nations that spent Influence could see that change reported as a recent trend the next time they answered an issue.

[Greater Hunnia]

#379:3, billions are spent on a new island airport

Agriculture -16.3%
Cheese Exports -28.8% (there goes my badge)
as a conseqence, economic output -1.6%

But guess what: Tourism also dropped by 13.8% (the issue was about finding a way to fulfill the demand made by increased air travel, option 3 does that...)

On the other hand, completely unrelated industries like arms manufacturing were increased a bit.

[Corindia]

45.2: the nation is suffering a severe shortage of sporting events
Taxation increased by 1%
Why did choosing not to fund sports raise taxation? (It also chopped off 5% of the economy which is a little silly but at least can be traced back to beverage sales)

[Drasnia]

45.2: the nation is suffering a severe shortage of sporting events
Taxation increased by 1%
Why did choosing not to fund sports raise taxation? (It also chopped off 5% of the economy which is a little silly but at least can be traced back to beverage sales)

Because your economy dropped, your government had to make up the difference in revenue by increasing taxes.

[Corindia]

45.2: the nation is suffering a severe shortage of sporting events
Taxation increased by 1%
Why did choosing not to fund sports raise taxation? (It also chopped off 5% of the economy which is a little silly but at least can be traced back to beverage sales)

Because your economy dropped, your government had to make up the difference in revenue by increasing taxes.

Does the total amount of tax dollars taken in decrease though?

[Kustgebied]

On Issue no.555 'It's An Honor Just To Be Nominated!', I chose option one. However, political freedoms decreased.

Is there a reason for this?

[Linux and the X]

On the "Too Few Cooks In The Kitchen" issue, why does the draw-straws option result in a 26-point drop in political freedoms?

[Luna Amore]

On the "Too Few Cooks In The Kitchen" issue, why does the draw-straws option result in a 26-point drop in political freedoms?

Merged with megathread.

If you are deciding things based on straws (or lottery), then there is no voting going on. Citizens can no longer influence the country by voting.

[Linux and the X]

On the "Too Few Cooks In The Kitchen" issue, why does the draw-straws option result in a 26-point drop in political freedoms?

Merged with megathread.

If you are deciding things based on straws (or lottery), then there is no voting going on. Citizens can no longer influence the country by voting.

But they can participate in referenda, or (with short terms of office) be directly involved in administration. Still, a slight fall could make sense, but 26 points? (Also, it's put me in the "below average" category, but I'm actually still (slightly) above the world average.)

[Almonaster Nuevo]

Merged with megathread.

If you are deciding things based on straws (or lottery), then there is no voting going on. Citizens can no longer influence the country by voting.

But they can participate in referenda, or (with short terms of office) be directly involved in administration. Still, a slight fall could make sense, but 26 points? (Also, it's put me in the "below average" category, but I'm actually still (slightly) above the world average.)

I agree, the drop seems excessive. Also, the premise of the issue is that there are no candidates to vote for.

By contrast, there is a follow-up issue which allows you to resume voting. This only restores about a third of the drop. I would suggest that one is about right and the coding in "too few cooks..." should be adjusted to match.

[Drasnia]

Merged with megathread.

If you are deciding things based on straws (or lottery), then there is no voting going on. Citizens can no longer influence the country by voting.

But they can participate in referenda, or (with short terms of office) be directly involved in administration. Still, a slight fall could make sense, but 26 points? (Also, it's put me in the "below average" category, but I'm actually still (slightly) above the world average.)

As the author of that issue, I wrote it to be purposefully deceiving. Forcing people to participate in government really does destroy freedom. One of the most basic rights - voting for candidates has been taken away. Referenda is a very small and insignificant right in comparison.

[Linux and the X]

Referenda is a very small and insignificant right in comparison.

Not necessarily. Issue 163, for example, allows for referenda on all laws.

[[violet]]

#379:3, billions are spent on a new island airport

Agriculture -16.3%
Cheese Exports -28.8% (there goes my badge)
as a conseqence, economic output -1.6%

But guess what: Tourism also dropped by 13.8% (the issue was about finding a way to fulfill the demand made by increased air travel, option 3 does that...)

(Image)

On the other hand, completely unrelated industries like arms manufacturing were increased a bit.

The Tourism ranking is a little too sensitive to environment at the moment (as is Cheese Exports), so in an issue like this, which seeks to offer a trade-off between the two, the bump to tourism infrastructure gets swamped by the fall in environment.

This will be addressed in the next big Rankings patch, at which point nations with good tourism fundamentals but poor environments will see a rise in their Tourism ranking.

[Trotterdam]

For the game, higher Civil Rights tend toward anarchy while lower Civil Rights tend toward totalitarianism. Regardless of your personal views, the criminalization of infant circumcision does involve the exercise of governmental power against people for their conduct. In an anarchy, the government would not ban infant circumcision, so allowing the practice increases Civil Rights.

So, some more observation on this subject, and previous complaints about Civil Rights not working like it should.

In #112, allowing telemarketing and door-to-door sales decreases civil rights, presumably on the basis that people have a harder time tuning out stuff they don't want to hear, even though it's not the government directly that's annoying them.

In #338, enacting no laws against noise pollution increases civil rights, even though the most pertinent effect is that... people have a harder time tuning out stuff they don't want to hear.

So one is more about corporations being allowed to make a racket (which is more Economic Freedom), and the other is more about private citizens being allowed to make a racket, but it still looks to me like #112's effect is illogical (the government isn't banning anything or repressing anyone) and inconsistent with #338.

What's the logic behind this?

I fixed a bug.

The stat changes under "Recent Trends" really do report recent trends, and in some situations it can report recent trends that weren't caused by the issue. In this case, the nation was refounded, and suffered an Influence penalty for its time in the netherworld. It then answered an issue, which reported this Influence drop as a recent trend.

This should no longer happen, nor should a similar situation where nations that spent Influence could see that change reported as a recent trend the next time they answered an issue.

So, whatever the case with Influence (I'm not in the WA), Residency is still showing.

I don't get what the difficulty is. Why not just take the snapshot-of-previous-stats-that-the-new-ones-are-compared-with immediately before processing the issue, rather than using a cached version of some kind (that apparently even survives refounding)? That would solve all current and future bugs of this nature, and save disk space since you don't have to remember both current and cached stats for every nation all the time.

[[violet]]

So, whatever the case with Influence (I'm not in the WA), Residency is still showing.

I wasn't aware that Residency was still an issue. But yes, I see it is popping up! I think I see a timezone problem: Residency will display if you answer an issue between 5PM PDT and the major daily update approximately 4 hours later.

I don't get what the difficulty is. Why not just take the snapshot-of-previous-stats-that-the-new-ones-are-compared-with immediately before processing the issue, rather than using a cached version of some kind (that apparently even survives refounding)? That would solve all current and future bugs of this nature, and save disk space since you don't have to remember both current and cached stats for every nation all the time.

It would prevent this kind of bug, yes, but at the cost of server load. There's no disk space issue because the scores have to be stored anyway for rankings tables. Regenerating 80 rankings scores each issue is wasteful in those circumstances, because practically 100% of the time, they will be the same as we already have on disk, and it requires about 9 million extra calculations per day, where many of those calculations are quite complex, such as calculating a nation's causes of death.

[Koyangi]

Hi,
I just had the issue #104 Public Loudspeakers Shrill With Controversy and chose option 1, where the Minister of Safety suggests that public loudspeakers should be used to warn people from emergencies and potentially save their lives (alongside some political brainwashing...)
As a result my Safety rating went down from 101.01 to 58.93, a whopping -41.7%. That was very unexpected, I thought the whole point of option 1 was to increase safety? Can someone explain that result to me?