[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects Since New Update

[4stan]

My memory is slightly fuzzy on this one because it was a couple of hours ago and I didn't write anything down. However, if I remember correctly, UC recently opted to subsidize the bejeezus out of the Olympics (option 3) in issue 246, and while it provided a huge boost to arms manufacturing, defense went down? I do not understand this. I thought pouring money into the economy without favoring a particular sector or industry is supposed to make defense go up? I don't expect perfect realism from this game, but it would be nice if the game could at least be consistent in the ways in which it is unrealistic.

I'm just noting which option effects are consistent and which ones vary from one set of circumstances to another. That's potentially useful information for anyone who doesn't know what goes on behind the curtains.

That is absolutely NOT the purpose of this thread.

If people want to discuss issue effects that they find unusual and talk about how they think the game engine works, should a separate thread be started for that purpose?

EDIT: KB legalizes the settling of disputes via duel (issue 131). Book-publishing goes up 5.3%. Are people reading books about sword-fighting?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I'm just noting which option effects are consistent and which ones vary from one set of circumstances to another. That's potentially useful information for anyone who doesn't know what goes on behind the curtains.

That is absolutely NOT the purpose of this thread.

Agreed. See that badge there? It says Moderator.
See this badge here? It says Editor.

If you'd like another thread to speculate about behind the curtains mechanics or trends in stats, then go start that thread.

This thread is explicitly for reporting game effects that suggest that the editor's coding of an issue might be incorrect, which gives us a safety net and flags need for changes.

Your observations NEVER achieve this, so they are of no use. The explanations given to you when you make those useless observations are intended to stop you wasting your and our time making those same observations again.

In reply to all your queries: working as intended, I refer you to previous explanations of the game engine.

[USS Monitor]

That is absolutely NOT the purpose of this thread.

If people want to discuss issue effects that they find unusual and talk about how they think the game engine works, should a separate thread be started for that purpose?

What CWA said. A new thread would be more appropriate than posting it here.

[4stan]

Will do. This morning, however, I have a genuine contradiction to report.

Issue 27 explicitly says that if the buying and selling of organs is legalized, most of the people doing the selling will be poor people. This means that logically, the average income of the poor should increase if I legalize organ sales. I did exactly that, but average income of the poor went down instead.

In reply to all your queries: working as intended, I refer you to previous explanations of the game engine.

You mean non-explanations.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

4stan, please take the hint and go away. What you consider useful queries are not useful queries.

I might answer and explain the queries you're making, but you're basically being persistently rude and obnoxious, so you're basically not welcome here.

Go away.

See that metaphorical door? Go. Leave. Get out. Skedaddle. You're a waste of time, a waste of wear and tear on keyboards, and a waste of brain cells.

Shoo.

[Venetoland]

My nation has seen an upsurge in moonshine, but my recreational drug use went DOWN. Isn't moonshine a "recreational drug"?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

My nation has seen an upsurge in moonshine, but my recreational drug use went DOWN. Isn't moonshine a "recreational drug"?

Moonshine is up, but alcohol consumption is down. Take a look at the option:

"Just set an upper limit of 6% ABV. That way people still have a way to blow off steam, but they’ll be a little less likely to smash bottles or brawl over the pandaball game."

effect:

moonshine has made a resurgence

So what you've done there is set an upper limit on alcohol levels. This represents more limitation on alcohol intake than you had before, so alcohol consumption has fallen. People may be brewing more moonshine, but they're still drinking less overall.

It's like if you banned smoking, illegal cigarette trading would make a resurgence, but there'd still be less smoking.

[Caracasus]

Will do. This morning, however, I have a genuine contradiction to report.

Issue 27 explicitly says that if the buying and selling of organs is legalized, most of the people doing the selling will be poor people. This means that logically, the average income of the poor should increase if I legalize organ sales. I did exactly that, but average income of the poor went down instead.

In reply to all your queries: working as intended, I refer you to previous explanations of the game engine.

You mean non-explanations.

Your nation has turned the organs of the poor into a commodity. Income of poor probably went down to reflect your nation's movement towards a stratified society.

As you said, poor people will be selling kidneys to pay off debt etc. Doubt anyone can work for a good while after having a kidney out...

[South Pacific Republic]

One of my puppets got the issue dealing with using artillery at concerts. I chose the one that encouraged the usage of weapons and it completely crashed the defense forces stat.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=thomura/detail=trend?censusid=46

[Venetoland]

Thanks! That's so freaking obvious, I should have figured that out.

[Drasnia]

One of my puppets got the issue dealing with using artillery at concerts. I chose the one that encouraged the usage of weapons and it completely crashed the defense forces stat.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=thomura/detail=trend?censusid=46

Are you talking about Concussive Percussion? Looking at your nation, your defense forces stat crashed a week ago - before that issue had even been added into the game. Since your defense forces got reset to 0, it has done nothing except grow.

[Torotho]

I got Issue 455 a few days ago, didn't realize there was a thread on these sorts of things or I would have posted earlier.

In any case, I chose Option 4.

The tank drives off, ruining the gardens around your office. "I can't believe you let amateurs use heavy armor," comments @@RANDOMMALENAME@@, a military attaché from Maxtopia. "Occupying unruly neighborhoods can reduce unrest, but only if the job is done by professionals. Let the army handle your police work, and you won't have untrained idiots demolishing every street sign in their path. Nothing maintains law and order quite like the barrel of a gun and a proper curfew."

So, using my military to conduct law enforcement. One would think that would help reduce crime, especially with statements like "reduce unrest" and "Nothing maintains law and order quite like..."

Instead my crime rate spiked 497%, which seems akin to if I had abolished the police entirely. I think that's what the issue thinks to be the case, since by Law Enforcement went from top 10% to 0, but the fact that the military is running law enforcement, and strictly, would seem to make an increase in crime not make sense, and a 500% increase just ridiculous, especially with a top 10% defense force.

So, seems pretty unusual to me.

Oh, yeah, here's the link. It's the giant spike upwards, I had an issue lower it a bit then spike it up some more after, but it's the giant one that I'm talking about.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=tor ... ensusid=77

[South Pacific Republic]

One of my puppets got the issue dealing with using artillery at concerts. I chose the one that encouraged the usage of weapons and it completely crashed the defense forces stat.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=thomura/detail=trend?censusid=46

Are you talking about Concussive Percussion? Looking at your nation, your defense forces stat crashed a week ago - before that issue had even been added into the game. Since your defense forces got reset to 0, it has done nothing except grow.

Huh, strange. Is there any conceivable reason why that effect would even happen in the first place?

[4stan]

4stan, please take the hint and go away. What you consider useful queries are not useful queries.

I might answer and explain the queries you're making, but you're basically being persistently rude and obnoxious, so you're basically not welcome here.

Go away.

See that metaphorical door? Go. Leave. Get out. Skedaddle. You're a waste of time, a waste of wear and tear on keyboards, and a waste of brain cells.

The other civilians in this thread do not agree with you. Right now, you're being 100x more rude and obnoxious than I've ever been.

Anyway, I tried making a separate thread, but Monitor got all butthurt/triggered and locked it, so it looks like you're stuck with me as long as I don't break the forum rules.

Issue 255. I abolished all welfare programs. Authoritarianism increased - the opposite of what should happen according to any extant definition of the term.

Your nation has turned the organs of the poor into a commodity. Income of poor probably went down to reflect your nation's movement towards a stratified society.

But legalizing the sale of organs wouldn't actually create a more stratified society

As you said, poor people will be selling kidneys to pay off debt etc. Doubt anyone can work for a good while after having a kidney out...

Actually, they can work just fine as long as they restrict their salt intake.

[Caracasus]

4stan, please take the hint and go away. What you consider useful queries are not useful queries.

I might answer and explain the queries you're making, but you're basically being persistently rude and obnoxious, so you're basically not welcome here.

Go away.

See that metaphorical door? Go. Leave. Get out. Skedaddle. You're a waste of time, a waste of wear and tear on keyboards, and a waste of brain cells.

The other civilians in this thread do not agree with you.

Anyway, I tried making a separate thread, but Monitor got all butthurt/triggered and locked it, so it looks like you're stuck with me as long as I don't break the forum rules.

Issue 255. I abolished all welfare programs. Authoritarianism increased - the opposite of what should happen according to any extant definition of the term.

Your nation has turned the organs of the poor into a commodity. Income of poor probably went down to reflect your nation's movement towards a stratified society.

But legalizing the sale of organs wouldn't actually create a more stratified society

As you said, poor people will be selling kidneys to pay off debt etc. Doubt anyone can work for a good while after having a kidney out...

Actually, they can work just fine as long as they restrict their salt intake.

You are allowing people to sell their organs. The poor will sell their organs, and the rich will be able to buy new organs from the poor. Given your lack of public healthcare, no doubt poor people would be trapped in a system where they're paying off medical bills by selling off organs. You're creating a society that is more stratified. Wealth gives one the advantage when it comes to health.

That's factually incorrect. REcovery from donating a kidney can take up to 12 weeks. Again, given your lack of welfare state that's potentially months where someone is unable to earn money.

[USS Monitor]

4stan, please take the hint and go away. What you consider useful queries are not useful queries.

I might answer and explain the queries you're making, but you're basically being persistently rude and obnoxious, so you're basically not welcome here.

Go away.

See that metaphorical door? Go. Leave. Get out. Skedaddle. You're a waste of time, a waste of wear and tear on keyboards, and a waste of brain cells.

The other civilians in this thread do not agree with you. Right now, you're being 100x more rude and obnoxious than I've ever been.

Anyway, I tried making a separate thread, but Monitor got all butthurt/triggered and locked it, so it looks like you're stuck with me as long as I don't break the forum rules.

Candle doesn't have the authority to ban you from the thread, but both of you are breaking the forum rules right now. I didn't tell you to come back here and start spamming this thread again (or flamebait me or Candle). I told you to redo your thread so it isn't a knock-off of this one.

[Drasnia]

4stan, please take the hint and go away. What you consider useful queries are not useful queries.

I might answer and explain the queries you're making, but you're basically being persistently rude and obnoxious, so you're basically not welcome here.

Go away.

See that metaphorical door? Go. Leave. Get out. Skedaddle. You're a waste of time, a waste of wear and tear on keyboards, and a waste of brain cells.

The other civilians in this thread do not agree with you. Right now, you're being 100x more rude and obnoxious than I've ever been.

rofl you make me laugh.

Anyway, I tried making a separate thread, but Monitor got all butthurt/triggered and locked it, so it looks like you're stuck with me as long as I don't break the forum rules.

That attitude's not going to get you anywhere. I will not be helping you and I'm amazed CWA still is. You have the right to post so long as you don't break the rules, but you don't have the right to get responses.

[Sedgistan]

Candlewhisper Archive, I'm afraid I'm going to have to give you an unofficial warning for flaming/baiting this post. You have an otherwise spotless record over a period that's included significant contributions to the site - you're a good person having a bad day, hence the punishment not being heavier; however, it was still over the top.

4stan/G-Max, you have a lengthy history of rules violations, particularly in this forum, and your behaviour here has been utterly unproductive. Since you are incapable of following instructions on using this thread in the appropriate manner, you are banned permanently from posting here. If you post here with any of your nations, they will be deleted. This does not mean that you make the same posts in other threads; that will also be considered evasion of this ban. Until you have learned how to follow guidelines and offer feedback in a helpful, polite fashion, refrain from offering any at all.

[Trotterdam]

I got Issue 455 a few days ago, didn't realize there was a thread on these sorts of things or I would have posted earlier.

In any case, I chose Option 4.

The tank drives off, ruining the gardens around your office. "I can't believe you let amateurs use heavy armor," comments @@RANDOMMALENAME@@, a military attaché from Maxtopia. "Occupying unruly neighborhoods can reduce unrest, but only if the job is done by professionals. Let the army handle your police work, and you won't have untrained idiots demolishing every street sign in their path. Nothing maintains law and order quite like the barrel of a gun and a proper curfew."

So, using my military to conduct law enforcement. One would think that would help reduce crime, especially with statements like "reduce unrest" and "Nothing maintains law and order quite like..."

Instead my crime rate spiked 497%, which seems akin to if I had abolished the police entirely. I think that's what the issue thinks to be the case, since by Law Enforcement went from top 10% to 0, but the fact that the military is running law enforcement, and strictly, would seem to make an increase in crime not make sense, and a 500% increase just ridiculous, especially with a top 10% defense force.

So, seems pretty unusual to me.

Acording to the way NationStates is coded, the purpose of Defense is to fight wars, the purpose of Law Enforcement is to enforce the law, and the two government departments are not interchangable. Thus, if you cut funding from the police and move it to the military, the law won't be getting enforced, notwithstanding any lines claiming you're implementing martial law.

Basically, this issue option is trying to do something that simply isn't possible under the current game model.

If you need a roleplay explanation, chalk it up to your martial law being corrupt, only interested in combating threats to national security (or people saying bad stuff about your government) rather than common crooks, who can now steal with impunity so long as they're not stealing from the government. Besides, a lot of police work is about finding criminals and evidence that they're the ones responsible, not about defeating them in combat. Your army has a lot of tanks but does it have detectives?

If you wanted heavily-armed law enforcement that actually works, you should have picked one of the options that allows the police to use tanks, rather than replacing the police with military that's using tanks. Even given the exact same equipment, enforcing the law is simply not something the military can do, while it is something the police can do, that's how NationStates works.

[Torotho]

I got Issue 455 a few days ago, didn't realize there was a thread on these sorts of things or I would have posted earlier.

In any case, I chose Option 4.



So, using my military to conduct law enforcement. One would think that would help reduce crime, especially with statements like "reduce unrest" and "Nothing maintains law and order quite like..."

Instead my crime rate spiked 497%, which seems akin to if I had abolished the police entirely. I think that's what the issue thinks to be the case, since by Law Enforcement went from top 10% to 0, but the fact that the military is running law enforcement, and strictly, would seem to make an increase in crime not make sense, and a 500% increase just ridiculous, especially with a top 10% defense force.

So, seems pretty unusual to me.

Acording to the way NationStates is coded, the purpose of Defense is to fight wars, the purpose of Law Enforcement is to enforce the law, and the two government departments are not interchangable. Thus, if you cut funding from the police and move it to the military, the law won't be getting enforced, notwithstanding any lines claiming you're implementing martial law.

Basically, this issue option is trying to do something that simply isn't possible under the current game model.

If you need a roleplay explanation, chalk it up to your martial law being corrupt, only interested in combating threats to national security (or people saying bad stuff about your government) rather than common crooks, who can now steal with impunity so long as they're not stealing from the government. Besides, a lot of police work is about finding criminals and evidence that they're the ones responsible, not about defeating them in combat. Your army has a lot of tanks but does it have detectives?

If you wanted heavily-armed law enforcement that actually works, you should have picked one of the options that allows the police to use tanks, rather than replacing the police with military that's using tanks. Even given the exact same equipment, enforcing the law is simply not something the military can do, while it is something the police can do, that's how NationStates works.

Dangit. Thanks for the explanation though, I should have guessed it was a stats-based kinda thing. I'll have to try to think up something about incompetent/corrupt/differently-recorded something something to explain it, thanks for the suggestions.

Obviously I could understand white-collar crime and such going up in that kind of situation (Though militaries do have NCIS and those sort of things, they've got detectives), but it makes you scratch your head when apparently the entire criminal population of the nation decided "Hey, tanks are rolling down the streets! This sounds like the perfect time to go rob that bank!" Especially when crime is sort of associated with/implied to be mostly violent crime/theft. But, I suppose you just gotta roll with these kinds of things, it's not all that bad.

Though it does raise the sort of general question of why issue choices like that are put in if they do the opposite of what they say. I can understand accidental implications and such, but this seems to be a clear case of something you do specifically for the purpose of reducing crime, that then ends up increasing crime dramatically.

[A Humanist Resurrection]

Though it does raise the sort of general question of why issue choices like that are put in if they do the opposite of what they say. I can understand accidental implications and such, but this seems to be a clear case of something you do specifically for the purpose of reducing crime, that then ends up increasing crime dramatically.

I'm having difficulty thinking of a circumstance where a sudden invocation of martial law results in immediate peace and prosperity. Either because of already advanced civil breakdown, or due to the breakdown that occurs post facto (since militaries are probably actually terrible at civil law enforcement).

What ever the workings of the game's internal doohickies, this outcome seems entirely normal and predictable.

[Aclion]

Though it does raise the sort of general question of why issue choices like that are put in if they do the opposite of what they say. I can understand accidental implications and such, but this seems to be a clear case of something you do specifically for the purpose of reducing crime, that then ends up increasing crime dramatically.

I'm having difficulty thinking of a circumstance where a sudden invocation of martial law results in immediate peace and prosperity. Either because of already advanced civil breakdown, or due to the breakdown that occurs post facto (since militaries are probably actually terrible at civil law enforcement).

What ever the workings of the game's internal doohickies, this outcome seems entirely normal and predictable.

Yes, Issues do what they say, but don't make the mistake of assuming that the results will be what were promised.

[Torotho]

Though it does raise the sort of general question of why issue choices like that are put in if they do the opposite of what they say. I can understand accidental implications and such, but this seems to be a clear case of something you do specifically for the purpose of reducing crime, that then ends up increasing crime dramatically.

I'm having difficulty thinking of a circumstance where a sudden invocation of martial law results in immediate peace and prosperity. Either because of already advanced civil breakdown, or due to the breakdown that occurs post facto (since militaries are probably actually terrible at civil law enforcement).

What ever the workings of the game's internal doohickies, this outcome seems entirely normal and predictable.

Peace and prosperity, no, but every criminal deciding that its the best time to try to rob a bank or shoot up a store when you have tanks rolling down the street doesn't really make much sense.

I'm not talking about some fractional increase. My crime went up 497%, from I think the 92nd percentile to the 11th. That's nutty.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Candlewhisper Archive, I'm afraid I'm going to have to give you an unofficial warning for flaming/baiting this post. You have an otherwise spotless record over a period that's included significant contributions to the site - you're a good person having a bad day, hence the punishment not being heavier; however, it was still over the top.

Understood. You're quite right, and I was reacting poorly in anger again. I apologize to the community for flipping out there.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Though it does raise the sort of general question of why issue choices like that are put in if they do the opposite of what they say. I can understand accidental implications and such, but this seems to be a clear case of something you do specifically for the purpose of reducing crime, that then ends up increasing crime dramatically.

I'm having difficulty thinking of a circumstance where a sudden invocation of martial law results in immediate peace and prosperity. Either because of already advanced civil breakdown, or due to the breakdown that occurs post facto (since militaries are probably actually terrible at civil law enforcement).

What ever the workings of the game's internal doohickies, this outcome seems entirely normal and predictable.

Actually, the doohickies are quite clever and subtle here. If you've got a really poor police force, then overall crime will fall. However, if you've got a police force that's functioning but which is being unfairly maligned by the speaker, then crime rises. It's a very nice little bit of working-as-intended.