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[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects Since New Update

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:02 pm

4stan wrote:Issue 649. I chose to raise tariffs, and my taxes somehow went down?!?


Yes, that's coded in by the editor behind this issue.

The execution of taxation is a little inconsistent, because the game engine has a very simplistic model - all tax is income tax, which basically moves according to government expenditure and taxable economic output, plus some coded fudging factors. Because its a simplistic model, things which don't fit that model (like corporation tax, tariffs and so on) have been interpreted in different ways by different editors at different times. Does raising corporation tax increase the tax score because tax burden is up, or does it drop it because income tax can now be lower? Depends on your opinion of what the numbers mean.

Honestly, the whole thing is going to be a bit of a fudge, so there's no real way to fix these sorts of things from an editorial side, though at some time in the next year I plan to do a big review to see if we can achieve some consistency. It's some way down the line on the project list, but its been planned for a long time.
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Drasnia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Drasnia » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:26 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
4stan wrote:Issue 649. I chose to raise tariffs, and my taxes somehow went down?!?


Yes, that's coded in by the editor behind this issue.

The execution of taxation is a little inconsistent, because the game engine has a very simplistic model - all tax is income tax, which basically moves according to government expenditure and taxable economic output, plus some coded fudging factors. Because its a simplistic model, things which don't fit that model (like corporation tax, tariffs and so on) have been interpreted in different ways by different editors at different times. Does raising corporation tax increase the tax score because tax burden is up, or does it drop it because income tax can now be lower? Depends on your opinion of what the numbers mean.

Honestly, the whole thing is going to be a bit of a fudge, so there's no real way to fix these sorts of things from an editorial side, though at some time in the next year I plan to do a big review to see if we can achieve some consistency. It's some way down the line on the project list, but its been planned for a long time.
would it also help consistency if the game said "x% of the average citizen's income goes towards paying taxes" or something similar? Would that affect anything other than a esthetics?
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Ransium
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Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ransium » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:22 pm

Noahs Second Country wrote:
147.6 wrote:“The military is a stain on the peace-loving nature of our nation!” cries Rodrigo Stromburg, while sporting a Rastafarian hat. “People should be allowed to choose what they do for a living! Conscription is wrong and I don’t see why our tax second best currencies should go to such a despicable cause! The money should be going to more important places - like our pockets!”

Effective Tax Rate -0.51 → -0.49 3.9%


CWA might have missed this one. But had he not, I bet he would have linked you here:

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=can ... /id=743335
Last edited by Ransium on Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Noahs Second Country
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Anarchy

Postby Noahs Second Country » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:55 pm

Ransium wrote:
Noahs Second Country wrote:Effective Tax Rate -0.51 → -0.49 3.9%


CWA might have missed this one. But had he not, I bet he would have linked you here:

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=can ... /id=743335

Economic output... I believe it went up, but I may be mistaken.
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Drasnia
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Postby Drasnia » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:00 pm

Noahs Second Country wrote:
Ransium wrote:
CWA might have missed this one. But had he not, I bet he would have linked you here:

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=can ... /id=743335

Economic output... I believe it went up, but I may be mistaken.

Looks to have gone down by 500,000,000,000 in the last 24 hours.
See You Space Cowboy...

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Ransium
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ransium » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:53 pm

Noahs Second Country wrote:Economic output... I believe it went up, but I may be mistaken.


You are:

Economic Output
Second best currencies 194,720,999,999,999 → 194,159,000,000,000 down 0.29%

Commended by SC 236,
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Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445,GA 463,GA 465,
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Venetoland
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Ex-Nation

Postby Venetoland » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:16 pm

In the issue regarding the Venetoland contribution to the World's Fair, I picked cultural contributions. The result name dropped Albert Ecco. Is the issue an original issue, given RL entities are frowned upon in subsequent issues.

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Lawyer suicide
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Ex-Nation

Postby Lawyer suicide » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:03 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:It says "Let the private sector run these docks".
The game treats planned economy as a binary state - either you allow private industry or you don't.


Yes, it's logical. But I remember that in other issues things were different - I could choose to have private prisons and private firefighters and still have 100% pure planned economy. Does it mean that you (and by "you" I mean editors) have decided to always legalise capitalism in such cases?
Last edited by Lawyer suicide on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:44 am

Venetoland wrote:In the issue regarding the Venetoland contribution to the World's Fair, I picked cultural contributions. The result name dropped Albert Ecco. Is the issue an original issue, given RL entities are frowned upon in subsequent issues.


Actually the effect line mentions Umberto Eco.

And no, there's no problem with referencing real people as background elements to the world. There's two mentions of Shakespeare, for example, and the Harry Potter book is the subject of Issue 3.

Taking the names of real people and twisting them around is normally done for humorous value, rather than because of any fear of legal action. NSifying Umberto Eco's name would have made the effect line less funny, so it was left as it is.
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:45 am

Lawyer suicide wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:It says "Let the private sector run these docks".
The game treats planned economy as a binary state - either you allow private industry or you don't.


Yes, it's logical. But I remember that in other issues things were different - I could choose to have private prisons and private firefighters and still have 100% pure planned economy. Does it mean that you (and by "you" I mean editors) have decided to always legalise capitalism in such cases?


Good point. Depends on execution at the time, and if you can give me issue numbers I can check them out and see if there is a flag change for capitalism/planned on those issues. Certainly in principle, privatising either of those things should deactivate planned economy. This fits nicely into my current review of all policy flags, and I've not reached this one yet, so I can incorporate changes into the upcoming review.

A quick scan gives me a list of 159, 202, 210 and 247 to review. Let me know if you find any others.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Lawyer suicide
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Postby Lawyer suicide » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:03 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Lawyer suicide wrote:
Yes, it's logical. But I remember that in other issues things were different - I could choose to have private prisons and private firefighters and still have 100% pure planned economy. Does it mean that you (and by "you" I mean editors) have decided to always legalise capitalism in such cases?


Good point. Depends on execution at the time, and if you can give me issue numbers I can check them out and see if there is a flag change for capitalism/planned on those issues. Certainly in principle, privatising either of those things should deactivate planned economy. This fits nicely into my current review of all policy flags, and I've not reached this one yet, so I can incorporate changes into the upcoming review.

A quick scan gives me a list of 159, 202, 210 and 247 to review. Let me know if you find any others.



I think you should check out following issues:

031 (privatization of beaches)
040 ("Instead of that, why not issue government vouchers so that parents can afford to send their children to privately run schools? ")
048("Couldn't we just provide limited basic healthcare for our citizens and have major operations covered by private health insurance?")
083("If people are worried about the costs, why not let the monorail service be a private company?")
142("If people want roads, then let private industry build them, and they can charge tolls to the people who actually drive on them")
186("This is a job for the private sector! We already have blueprints for cars with bullet-proof armour and mounted machine guns, and, if you'll pass appropriate legislation, we can have these things on sale in weeks. Let the people defend themselves!")
217("Those of us who can afford to pay for a private doctor ought to be allowed to opt out of the NHS tax and if that means lower quality of service for the masses then tough!" ... "I call on the government to disband the National Health Service and bring back private health insurance. ")
294 (privatisation of the legislature)
248("Airport security should remain in private hands! Think realistically for a moment: government priorities change all the time but companies are in it for profit. Bombings are BAD for business! We don't LET them happen! So just... butt out will you? I'm not losing my job to a flatfoot!"")
273("I'm sure that religious institutions, the military, and private companies would fork out a bit to train up the next generation, so we could save on taxes too." ... "Give private schools a small government subsidy, and let the free market take its course")
316("we think we should be allowed to shelter ourselves from the criminal hordes with armed private security")
371("Well howdy folks! I couldn't help but overhear that your gambling industry is in the toilet. Why not hand over the new lottery to the private sector?")
394(" they can pay for private treatment if they aren't happy with our basic services")
414("We need to privatize the local government if this town is going to run a profit again. Companies can bid for control of everything, from garbage collection to city hall!"")
604(""Looks like this here's something the private sector can help you with, and by private sector I mean my company! Just grant us the exclusive right to provide catering in all of @@NAME@@'s prisons")
606("Relax those regulations, and economies of scale will allow legitimate private industry to triumph")
628("“Put these forests back in private hands, and we’ll have these forest humming again in no time - with chainsaws, that is.")
Last edited by Lawyer suicide on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:54 am

Cheers for the hard work there!

Will add those things to the ongoing policy discussion, and likely we'll see some changes in the hopefully-only moderately-distant future
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Really stateless nation
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Founded: Jan 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Really stateless nation » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:56 am

I recently got the easter egg issue where my well-off citizens decided to colonise the outer space due to crippling crime rates in my inner cities.

My economy has dropped significantly, but it's OK because it's logical. I just feel that effects of such drastic move were half-hearted despite such significant drop. IMHO, such option should drastically increase income equality (because almost all well-off citizens left the country) and drastically drop employment rate (so not only well-off citizens have left the country, but they took their businesses/money with them too). I also think that such option would by many degrees increase the black market at expense of the private industry because the wannabe space colonists probably had more or less legitimate businesses and they just got tired of dealing with criminals. Also, I would expect a significant drop in the intelligence stat, because many of said well-off citizens would be very valuable professionals.

Of course, these things are just my suggestions, I just want to say that this option is so radical, that it probably should radically change many other things too.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:33 am

There's a lot of super-radical moves on NS, especially on Easter Eggs. A degree of toning down occurs, as otherwise these issue options could too easily entirely derail months of more moderate decision making. It's all about the balance between gameplay and verisimilitude, and we've chosen a certain point to have this balance.

Hell, can you imagine the real world economic repercussions of the USA banning cars, for example? The "stat changes" would go way beyond what we can code, the loss of faith in democratic process, the knock on global recession, and so on: these would all do way more than we'd want to see in our NS simulation.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Xqurxyu
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Founded: Nov 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Xqurxyu » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:10 am

21.3 Decreases political freedoms. I doesn't deal with that.
Last edited by Xqurxyu on Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:30 am

I'm sure I've raised this before backstage. I'll raise it again.
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Trotterdam
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Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:27 am

Really stateless nation wrote:I recently got the easter egg issue where my well-off citizens decided to colonise the outer space due to crippling crime rates in my inner cities.

My economy has dropped significantly, but it's OK because it's logical. I just feel that effects of such drastic move were half-hearted despite such significant drop. IMHO, such option should drastically increase income equality (because almost all well-off citizens left the country) and drastically drop employment rate (so not only well-off citizens have left the country, but they took their businesses/money with them too). I also think that such option would by many degrees increase the black market at expense of the private industry because the wannabe space colonists probably had more or less legitimate businesses and they just got tired of dealing with criminals. Also, I would expect a significant drop in the intelligence stat, because many of said well-off citizens would be very valuable professionals.
I wouldn't see it as people leaving your country. Rather, the borders of your country have expanded to now include territory in outer space. This territory is still under your laws and the people who live there are your citizens.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:02 pm

Xqurxyu wrote:21.3 Decreases political freedoms. I doesn't deal with that.


Glad to report that the team was in favour of a change. Lots of stats changed on this one now.
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Christian Democrats
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:40 pm

How does Option 613.3 harm Civil Rights?
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:41 am

Christian Democrats wrote:How does Option 613.3 harm Civil Rights?


Through its assigned stat effects.
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:42 am

Also, this might answer your question:

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=can ... /id=743343
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Bedetopia
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bedetopia » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:32 am

#174 Maternity Leave A Must, Say Mothers

Option 1: The nanny industry has had a boom after maternity leave was recently banned.

Effects

I know that wealth gaps are tied to economic freedom, but is it normal to see such a drastic change for just a 5 point increase? Also, how come the Arms industry didn't receive a boost (although I want to destroy it so that's good) since economic freedom was raised?

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Luna Amore
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Founded: Antiquity
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Luna Amore » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:18 am

Bedetopia wrote:#174 Maternity Leave A Must, Say Mothers

Option 1: The nanny industry has had a boom after maternity leave was recently banned.

Effects

I know that wealth gaps are tied to economic freedom, but is it normal to see such a drastic change for just a 5 point increase? Also, how come the Arms industry didn't receive a boost (although I want to destroy it so that's good) since economic freedom was raised?

Not seeing anything unusual. It's only a .8 increase.
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Bedetopia
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bedetopia » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:33 pm

Luna Amore wrote:
Bedetopia wrote:#174 Maternity Leave A Must, Say Mothers

Option 1: The nanny industry has had a boom after maternity leave was recently banned.

Effects

I know that wealth gaps are tied to economic freedom, but is it normal to see such a drastic change for just a 5 point increase? Also, how come the Arms industry didn't receive a boost (although I want to destroy it so that's good) since economic freedom was raised?

Not seeing anything unusual. It's only a .8 increase.


It's almost the double though. I would've expected it to rather be +0.1 or +0.3 at most.

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Luna Amore
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Posts: 15002
Founded: Antiquity
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Luna Amore » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:57 pm

1.04 -> 1.82 on a scale that goes from 1-1,948.33 (judging by the census). You really had nowhere else to go but up and any change is going to be a large percentage difference because you are just shy of the hard coded bottom.
Samoas are the best Girl Scout cookie. I will not be taking questions.

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