Issue bug: Chasing the Dragon

[The Afanisian Isles]

Yesterday I got Issue #409; Chasing the Dragon. It has been a dream of mine to be the number 1 druggie nation in NS and I've made it my thing to try and maximise the amount of recreational drug use by answering issues accordingly.

Naturally I was overjoyed when I got #409, because it had been a while since I got another drug issue. So I went with option 2, which was to subsidize all recreational drug use in my nation. My Pineapple fondness rating was 402 yesterday, and I was (justly) expecting that the issue would raise it but alas, it stayed at 402.

This isn't my first encounter with a disappointing issue result, as I've made a very similar thread to this last august about an issue called "Drug Legality Run Amok", which lowered my rating from 511 to 431. And now it's even lower, even though I dedicate my entire nation to achieve the highest possible Recreational Drug Use.

I'm fairly sure that this isn't debatable, if I answer an issue as such it should have the expected results. I get that issues can be tricky but come on, this is an obvious black/white situation. By now, my nation should have a PFR well over 500... It's really demotivating.

Sauce; Last thread Drug legality run amok

[Aculea]

Drug use is capped. The closer you get to the top the harder it is to climb higher. It's not the only stat to do weird things when you get too high. Civil rights and political freedom, for example, both have decisions that can go one way, the other, or not at all depending on where you start from.

[The Afanisian Isles]

I know that. But there should be a limit to the extent in which issues have unpredictable effects, otherwise what's the point of issues?
And as I said, I have had rec drug use ratings of up to 511 so how come I suddenly can't get past 402? Doesn't make sense.

For the love of Max Barry, can't the creatures of the admin underworld not fix this somehow?

[Aculea]

Some drug use values are easier to reach than others. There's a bit of a wasteland between 402 and 511. I suspect you're looking for one or two big issues rather than a succession of small ones. 402 itself is hard to reach. Around 375 is easier, above 500 is easier.

Without those one or two big issues to kick you into the top end, you're effectively bumping the ceiling, and that is where the weirdest behavior occurs in other such stats as well. Of course there's no official explanation, but I've wondered sometimes if passing some favorable legislation can accidentally repeal even more favorable legislation you passed previously. Or if good legislation is preventing great legislation from coming to your attention.

[Trotterdam]

I'm not sure this will help, but try raising civil and economic rights (moreso civil, I think), even when they seem to be about subjects other than drugs.

[The Afanisian Isles]

Some drug use values are easier to reach than others. There's a bit of a wasteland between 402 and 511. I suspect you're looking for one or two big issues rather than a succession of small ones. 402 itself is hard to reach. Around 375 is easier, above 500 is easier.

Without those one or two big issues to kick you into the top end, you're effectively bumping the ceiling, and that is where the weirdest behavior occurs in other such stats as well. Of course there's no official explanation, but I've wondered sometimes if passing some favorable legislation can accidentally repeal even more favorable legislation you passed previously. Or if good legislation is preventing great legislation from coming to your attention.

How do you know all that? I mean, it sounds plausible but I'm just curious.

And alright, let's say I'm 'bumping the ceiling'. If I bump it enough by only answering drug-related issues does this mean it will eventually result in a sudden breakthrough? I've been trying to get to that point for over 2 years now.

I mean, twist and turn it all you want but it all boils down to the fact that it doesn't make sense for my drug rating to remain unchanged when I just decided to subsidize rec drug use. I realise that the issues are coded in such and such a manner but still, my Pineapple Fondess Rating should be rising according to my decisions.

I'm not sure this will help, but try raising civil and economic rights (moreso civil, I think), even when they seem to be about subjects other than drugs.

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate all input. To be honest I've been trying to maximise civil rights (while minimising pol freedoms) for a while now. But if infusing the water supply with hallucinogens and subsidizing recreational drug use doesn't raise my PFR then I doubt simply raising civ rights will. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[Sedgistan]

There is no bug with the stats on that option.

[Aculea]

How do you know all that? I mean, it sounds plausible but I'm just curious.

A Drug Use census and patience. I'm defining "easy to reach" in relation to the number of nations with a particular score. And no, I did not count all 100k nations.

And alright, let's say I'm 'bumping the ceiling'. If I bump it enough by only answering drug-related issues does this mean it will eventually result in a sudden breakthrough?

No idea! Your nudity score gets a 1000 point bonus if you make nudity mandatory, so I'd imagine you're looking for one particular named issue that comes with a strong recreational drug use benefit. If you have the patience, you might go through the spoilers looking for some sort of unban or repeal issue with a strong drug use benefit that you need to trigger.

I mean, twist and turn it all you want but it all boils down to the fact that it doesn't make sense for my drug rating to remain unchanged when I just decided to subsidize rec drug use. I realise that the issues are coded in such and such a manner but still, my Pineapple Fondess Rating should be rising according to my decisions.

It's similar to civil rights, there's a point after which your citizens can't become any more free. If I am right (if!) then there's a main contributor to drug use, and you've maxed it. All of your citizens are essentially high 24/7 and neither you nor they can get any higher. My creativity fails to imagine what issue could provide a 100 point bonus on top of that, but I think it's a good analogy. And no, not every census score works this way.

However...

I'm not sure this will help, but try raising civil and economic rights (moreso civil, I think), even when they seem to be about subjects other than drugs.

I have to agree, but there's a quibble. The topmost island for drug use is 501-515 in my sample, and yes they are strictly ordered in terms of their civil rights, with 515 having the most and 501 having the least, but the people with 501 and 502 all have civil rights of less than 10. The person with 515 has 78. And I do mean strict order. Sooner or later I think The Afanisian Isles is going to have to pursue a high civil rights to hit the top of the scale, but high civil rights alone does not seem to trigger the issue(s) that boost drug use that high. The top scorer's trend chart shows civil rights has never been low in their country, so at least I don't have to recommend dropping civil rights to try and trigger the issue.

[Drachmaland]

The top five nations in Drug Use were these four and Bright Star (it ranked 3rd back then, but is at 119 today); Humane Chinchillas had 517 at the time:
http://www.nationstates.net/page=compar ... ensusid=60
These nations' Civil Rights have changed since the census day, but today are at:
http://www.nationstates.net/page=compar ... censusid=0
If Aculea's hypothesis stands, then at the next drug census Kazika will have to surpass the other three (provided of course that no nation's Drug metric increases any further).
Apart from a strong correlation among Drugs Use and Civil Rights *that I've noticed, also), I've seen another strong (inverse) correlation between Drugs Use and Law Enforcement — typically when Law goes up then Drugs get negatively affected (in the following graph, please keep in mind that at the time of the census Humane Chinchillas had a higher stat value that all other top nations):
http://www.nationstates.net/page=compar ... ensusid=30

[Aculea]

I would consider it a matter of science if you waited until issue #284 Drug Legality Run Amok and took the last option, then told me what happened to your drug use.

[Drachmaland]

These are the nations #2-#15 in Drug Use today (nation #1 has 517; all these are at 515):
http://www.nationstates.net/page=compar ... ensusid=60

[The Afanisian Isles]

I would consider it a matter of science if you waited until issue #284 Drug Legality Run Amok and took the last option, then told me what happened to your drug use.

You make some fair points! I''ll be sure to work on my civil rights. And I just got issue #359 'Got Democracy?'

Probably because my political rights went from 27 to 47 last night. I would have never expected it, but the last option was this;

"I have an unorthodox way to solve this once and for all," suggests your questionably sane Interior Minister, playing with a chemistry set despite the gravity of the meeting. "Instead of all that 'populism,' why don't we infuse the water supply with, I dunno, sedatives or something?" He grins maniacally. "Imagine how easy it would be to control the citizenry! Put the right drugs in the water, and I'm sure you'd have zero dissidents. Think about it: you could abolish all those superfluous legislatures and make yourself The Afanisian Isles's absolute ruler."

Oh yea. Infusing the water supply with even more drugs. That oughta do the trick. So naturally I'm going with that. My rec drug use rating is 400 now, will post result tomorrow.

These are the nations #2-#15 in Drug Use today (nation #1 has 517; all these are at 515):
http://www.nationstates.net/page=compar ... ensusid=60

Really handy, those graphs. Cheers.

So if you're right I should maximise civil rights and minimise law enforcement. That makes sense.

There is no bug with the stats on that option.

Come on Sedge, can't you do me a little favor? Just turn that 4 into a 5, ya know shuffle the numbers?

[Aculea]

Oh yea. Infusing the water supply with even more drugs. That oughta do the trick. So naturally I'm going with that. My rec drug use rating is 400 now, will post result tomorrow.

I'm not convinced sedatives are recreational enough. 284:5 has the charm that the drugs are specifically for achieving religious experiences, a bit different from mind control. But the important thing I forgot to mention: If you get your drug use above 500, any option related to recreational drug use has a chance to lower it again. For example, subsidizing drugs and selling them below cost in corner markets may or may not imply that you have accidentally shut down the free drugs in order to try and recoup expenses. I honestly don't know, but now that I know what to look for, my puppets are littered with instances of drug use going down because good legislation repealed great legislation.

[Drachmaland]

So if you're right I should maximise civil rights and minimise law enforcement. That makes sense.

Your Civil Rights will be at ~80 max, though (because you'll be following all the "compulsory/forcibly drugs everywhere" options — and these drop your Civil Rights when implemented).
Your Law can be as low as you wish — because even its slightest rise can adversely affect your Drug Use rating.

[Drachmaland]

Oh yea. Infusing the water supply with even more drugs. That oughta do the trick. So naturally I'm going with that. My rec drug use rating is 400 now, will post result tomorrow.

I'm not convinced sedatives are recreational enough. 284:5 has the charm that the drugs are specifically for achieving religious experiences, a bit different from mind control.

If I recall correctly, option 284.5 does shoot the Drug Use stat at the 500s — but this was tested on a very new nation, with almost no other drug-infusing-the waters history.

After-update EDIT: Yup, The Afanisian Isles have a Drug Use rating of 507 today.

[The Afanisian Isles]

I'm way too excited! Drachmaland already posted the good news. I have a PFR of 507 now! https://www.nationstates.net/page=compa ... ensusid=60

Thanks for the advice Aculea, Drachmaland and Trotterdam. Aculea, it appears your 'bumping the ceiling' reasoning made sense after all. I'm a lot closer to becoming one of the narcotic elite than I was yesterday.

[Aculea]

I have a PFR of 507 now!

Congratulations!

Aculea, it appears your 'bumping the ceiling' reasoning made sense after all.

I think you had a good reaction. You didn't laugh me out of the room but you didn't glom onto it as unquestionable either. In which vein, a few careful tests of the effect of law enforcement might be in order. I suspect the low law enforcement in the top tier nations is because most people roleplay, and many people roleplaying high civil rights also roleplay low law enforcement. Civil rights I have more confidence is key to high drug use. So confident I'll make a few hypotheses: Social conservatism is related to civil rights. When drug use is 500 or above, and stays 500 or above, it changes when social conservatism crosses thresholds set five points apart, for example 45-49, then 50-54.

I agree with Drachmaland, your civil rights are going to be limited by your force-feeding drugs to your populace. I can guess from the census that you're going to find it hard to get higher than 515. Were civil rights unlimited, my hypothesis predicts 520 would be the upper limit. My opinion, and I'm not sure this counts as a hypothesis because I'm not making any concrete prediction, is that if you want to crack 517 or above, don't roleplay. Go for all the civil rights raising issues (except medicating the water), and not just the ones that make sense for drugged out hippies. Further advice, civil rights is all about choice. It doesn't matter whether you're forcing your citizens to do something or forcing your citizens not to do something, nor does it matter whether what you're forcing them to do is good for them or not, it all lowers civil rights. Sometimes things that are harmful to other people can raise civil rights, for example allowing cannibalism on a volunteer basis. OTOH, forced human sacrifice lowers civil rights because of the "forced". The big three are the most confusing stats, good luck.

[Drachmaland]

In which vein, a few careful tests of the effect of law enforcement might be in order.

I'm grabbing this opportunity to restate my hypothesis (supported by my drugs-stat tracking so far): I'm not saying that lowering law enforcement per se is a solid tactic for having the highest possible drugs rating; I'm saying that there are decisions that increase law enforcement (even a bit) can have a negative impact on drug use even if there is no direct relationship between the issue and its effects, and actual drug use. So I'm thinking that nations that have successfully avoided those decisions have also avoided a number of increases on their law enforcement stats (and they're therefore lower in comparison with where they would have been, were they to decide otherwise).

[Drachmaland]

OK, so we had at this major the opportunity to study a drop in Pterodoria's (world's number one) Drug Use (517–>516):
[most probably relevant] Civil Rights –2 (85–>83), Law Enforcement +1, Social Conservatism +2; [other] Political Freedoms +1, Religiousness +1, Defense Forces +1 etc.

The options implemented were 452.2 and 061.2. The effect observed is totally in line with previous test results, because:

• When Humane Chinchillas was at the 517 level of Drug Use, option 452.2 was implemented on the minor of Oct. 28th and the Drugs stat decreased –1 (to 516). Civil Rights also went from 85 to 83.
• When Humane Chinchillas was at the 517 level of Drug Use, option 061.2 was implemented on the major of Nov. 15th and the Drugs stat remained unaffected.

[Drachmaland]

• When Humane Chinchillas was at the 517 level of Drug Use, option 452.2 was implemented on the minor of Oct. 28th and the Drugs stat decreased –1 (to 516). Civil Rights also went from 85 to 83.
• When Humane Chinchillas was at the 517 level of Drug Use, option 061.2 was implemented on the major of Nov. 15th and the Drugs stat remained unaffected.

Seeing this I realized there was a moment between those two points in time, when that nation returned from 516 back to 517 in its Drugs Use rating.
And so I looked for it; it was an option that increased +1 its Civil Rights (84–>85) and decreased –3 its Law Enforcement.
There is a pattern here, and this is the 85 at Civil Rights: All nations still at 515 from this list have Civil Rights 78-80; we've just found out that 85 (and, obviously, over) brings a nation at 517 — and thus 81-84 most probably corresponds to 516.
Moreover, the route of the Drugs stat of Humane Chinchillas when it went from 517 down to 515 confirms and verifies its matching with Civil Rights at the aforementioned range, too:

• Major of Dec. 13th: Civil Rights 88–>81, Drug Use 517–>516
• Major of Dec. 21st: Civil Rights 82–>78, Drug Use 516–>515

[The Afanisian Isles]

My rating has gone up to 510 following several issues in which I chose to raise civil rights and lower law enforcement. This is actually working.

[Pterodoria]

I'm a bit late here, but since my name was mentioned, I guess my input might still be relevant. I'm pretty sure you're right with the whole civil rights thing (nudity works in a similar way), and I also think the drugs related issues won't boost your score when you're at 500+, unless they increase your civil rights of course. As for the maximum possible, I think more than 517 is attainable, as Pterodoria has never had civil rights as its highest priority, so there could be more to be gained there. As I mentioned, I have other priorities with this nation, so my civil rights will naturally fluctuate, so there's definitely a chance for you guys to take the #1 spot from me. Good luck!