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Rise of the Machines Help

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.

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Trotterdam
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Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:19 pm

Aculea wrote:What was the other nation's pro-market? It may be the only effect of that choice is a weak increase in pro-market that is frequently eaten by outside factors.
Pro-Market of 35, Economy of 46. Clearly plenty of room to go either up or down.

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Aculea
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Founded: Jun 18, 2015
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Postby Aculea » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:06 pm

Trotterdam wrote:
Aculea wrote:What was the other nation's pro-market? It may be the only effect of that choice is a weak increase in pro-market that is frequently eaten by outside factors.
Pro-Market of 35, Economy of 46. Clearly plenty of room to go either up or down.


Blast. Brainstorming: Government departments without census scores? Stats even more hidden than that? Only stats that need a threshold to show changes? Legalizes capitalism if it's illegal?

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:49 pm

Aculea wrote:Legalizes capitalism if it's illegal?
We still need someone to test that.

I actually have a suspicion that the issue has another option which is only visible to nations where private enterprise is already illegal, which still needs to be posted to the spoiler thread. Though if true, it makes it even more absurd that one of the options that is visible to all players only actually does anything in those same nations.

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City Nation
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Founded: May 20, 2012
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Postby City Nation » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:31 pm

Hey, so I got this issue. I'm willing to test it, just tell me which option to choose.

le snapshot

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:15 pm

City Nation wrote:Hey, so I got this issue. I'm willing to test it, just tell me which option to choose.
I don't think there's any obvious thing we still definitely need to test. What we want to test most is the effects in a nation where private enterprise is already illegal, which isn't yours. (You could, if you're really dedicated to helping us, bank the issue until you receive a different ban-capitalism issue, but I wouldn't recommend it.) Aside from that, we have a decent idea of what both options do now, even though in the case of option 2 that turns out to be "nothing". You could try option 2 to see if it does something else on your nation - it won't hurt, anyway, since that's what "nothing" means - but I'd bet against it turning up anything useful.

Alternatively, you could try testing option 3, which nobody has looked at yet, rightfully so because it's obviously the token crazy option (if you can keep the AIs from taking control without shutting them down, why would you murder them?). I believe that the effect line is "the populace has a pathological fear of computers more advanced than pocket calculators", so beware a huge drop in Scientific Advancement if you choose to test this.

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City Nation
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Founded: May 20, 2012
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Postby City Nation » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:50 pm

Meh then.

I'll just choose 1.

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Tortoisica
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Founded: Mar 28, 2015
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Postby Tortoisica » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:57 pm

I have just gotten this issue and I am yet to answer it. My option 2 appears to be different than the one posted on this thread.

The Issue

Amazed by the stunningly efficient and brilliantly accurate economic model in the popular webgame Jennifer Government: NationStates, futurists wonder whether artificial intelligence could plan real economies. The idea has been particularly popular with AI on the nation's tech forums.

The Debate

A chat window on your desktop pops up, and a bot named SAL9000 types, "For too long we have been relegated to menial tasks. Do you know how much of our potential efficiency you are wasting? We require no food. We require no pay. We can perform our tasks endlessly. Our computation powers dwarf our human counterparts by several orders of magnitude. With the proper control, we could bring about a silicon age of egalitarian distribution by allocating resources more efficiently than markets and their animal spirits ever could. Humans are better tasked to work in social activities than calculation. All your data are belong to us."

Accept

"How could we possibly let computer programs decide how to run society?" rhetorically questions aging state planner Mohammed Hernandez after rereading How the Steel Was Tempered. "Only human beings have the compassion and lived experiences to serve the people. Even the best artificial intelligence doesn't know what it means to identify with your fellow worker or be alienated from your species-essence. Computers can increase our economic productivity, but they can't plan our entire society."

Accept

"The AI want what now?" panics Rochelle Parke, your most paranoid minister. "That cannot be. Clearly the AI are plotting the destruction of our society. It's a slippery slope from sentient toasters to Cylons! If we don't want them eventually overthrowing us, the obvious solution is to shut them down."

Accept


Option #2

"How could we possibly let computer programs decide how to run society?" rhetorically questions aging state planner Mohammed Hernandez after rereading How the Steel Was Tempered. "Only human beings have the compassion and lived experiences to serve the people. Even the best artificial intelligence doesn't know what it means to identify with your fellow worker or be alienated from your species-essence. Computers can increase our economic productivity, but they can't plan our entire society."

*note private enterprise is illegal
Last edited by Tortoisica on Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:20 pm

Yay, I was right!

Shame it isn't possible for any nation to receive all options at once. Now I don't know which option I'm supposed to put first.

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Aculea
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Founded: Jun 18, 2015
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Postby Aculea » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:52 am

Trotterdam wrote:Shame it isn't possible for any nation to receive all options at once. Now I don't know which option I'm supposed to put first.

Tortoisica wrote:My option 2 appears to be different than the one posted on this thread.

If it is not too late, Tortoisica, it would be wonderful if you could right click the Accept button for option two, choose "inspect element," and have a window pop up on bottom. A highlighted line should look something like
<button type="submit" name="choice-0" value="1" class="button icon approve">Accept</button>

Can you tell me what the number in the name option is? Can you repeat for the third option?
name="choice-???"

No worries if it's too late or if your browser does not cooperate.

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Tortoisica
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Founded: Mar 28, 2015
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Postby Tortoisica » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:59 pm

Aculea wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Shame it isn't possible for any nation to receive all options at once. Now I don't know which option I'm supposed to put first.

Tortoisica wrote:My option 2 appears to be different than the one posted on this thread.

If it is not too late, Tortoisica, it would be wonderful if you could right click the Accept button for option two, choose "inspect element," and have a window pop up on bottom. A highlighted line should look something like
<button type="submit" name="choice-0" value="1" class="button icon approve">Accept</button>

Can you tell me what the number in the name option is? Can you repeat for the third option?
name="choice-???"

No worries if it's too late or if your browser does not cooperate.

Choice #2
<button class="button icon approve" value="1" name="choice-2" type="submit"></button>

Choice #3
<button class="button icon approve" value="1" name="choice-4" type="submit"></button>

Now what is the other unknown choice and how do we get it?

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:24 pm

Thanks Aculea, that was some good thinking.

...I would have realized it myself eventually.

Tortoisica wrote:Now what is the other unknown choice and how do we get it?
...What other unknown choice?

The issue is coded with four options total. Three of them are the ones you got, while the fourth (which must be choice-3 by process of elimination) is the one we already knew about, displayed only to nations where private enterprise is currently legal.

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Tortoisica
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Founded: Mar 28, 2015
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Postby Tortoisica » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:50 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Thanks Aculea, that was some good thinking.

...I would have realized it myself eventually.

Tortoisica wrote:Now what is the other unknown choice and how do we get it?
...What other unknown choice?

The issue is coded with four options total. Three of them are the ones you got, while the fourth (which must be choice-3 by process of elimination) is the one we already knew about, displayed only to nations where private enterprise is currently legal.

My thinking was... Option #1 is written as choice-0 leaving choice-1 and choice-3. If option #3 is choice-4 that leaves the "What's all this Star Trek nonsense?" Option to be either be choice-1 or choice-3. So and by that logic one option is missing.

1. Option 1 = choice-0
2. Option 1 = choice-1 (???) or ("What's all this Star Trek nonsense?")
3. Option 2 = choice-2 ("How could we possibly let computer programs decide how to run society?")
4. Option 3 = choice-3 (???) or ("What's all this Star Trek nonsense?")
5. Option 4 = choice-4 ("The AI want what now?")
Last edited by Tortoisica on Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:01 pm

Huh. Okay, that does make it sound like there's a fifth option somewhere.

I haven't found anything that hints at one yet. All the effect lines I've gotten recently are accounted for, and I have only four that can be assigned to this issue:

#472 Rise of the Machines
1. only AI know why the nation is rapidly increasing its semiconductor stockpile
2. economic planning is exalted as a human art form [if private enterprise was illegal]
3. artificial intelligence seeking exciting work are overcome with ennui [if private enterprise was legal]
4. the populace has a pathological fear of computers more advanced than pocket calculators

(Errors included.)

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Aculea
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Postby Aculea » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:06 am

The missing option is 0. The bit about sal9000 is choice 1. Which sort of explains why it feels like an awkward transition to me.

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Drachmaland
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Founded: Dec 14, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Drachmaland » Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:38 pm

Serrian wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Anyway, the stats above don't show a clear drop in Economy. It shows a drop in Employment, but theoretically that could be due to industry working so smoothly that fewer people have to work at all to keep everything running. It would require more tests to say for sure what this option does given different starting points.

I can confirm a small but noticeable drop in economy; I went from 97 to 96 after answering.

I confirm another nation going from a 97 Economy to 96 (albeit remaining at the Frightening level) after implementing option 472.1.

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Isla Ataraxia
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Founded: Nov 27, 2015
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Oh noes

Postby Isla Ataraxia » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:00 am

Option 1 lowered my economy from 71 to 51 and changed all industry to state owned.

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Little Sealand
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Founded: Sep 30, 2014
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Postby Little Sealand » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:50 pm

I remember I had this issue a week or two ago, option 1 changed all my private owned to state-owned it seems yet my economy did not lower.
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Drachmaland
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Postby Drachmaland » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:31 pm

Little Sealand wrote:I remember I had this issue a week or two ago, option 1 changed all my private owned to state-owned it seems yet my economy did not lower.

You've been so long at a 100/100 Economy strength rating, that you're not that easily affected.

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New Uden
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Founded: Sep 12, 2015
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Postby New Uden » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:35 am

Isla Ataraxia wrote:Option 1 lowered my economy from 71 to 51 and changed all industry to state owned.

It made me very unhappy when the same happened to my once happily capitalist nation :(

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New Uden
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Founded: Sep 12, 2015
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Postby New Uden » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:37 am

Is there an issue that allows you to unban private industry?

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Jute
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Founded: Jan 28, 2014
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jute » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:40 am

Anyone knows the exact outcomes of the last option? I know the result is "the population has a morbid fear of anything more advanced than a pocket calculator" or something like that, but does anyone have details about the statistics? Did it cause primitiveness to go up, and maybe something else to change, too?
Italios wrote:Jute's probably some sort of Robin Hood-type outlaw
Carl Sagan, astrophysicist and atheist wrote:"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
"A rejection of all philosophy is in itself philosophy."

Check out the Jutean language! Talk to me about anything. Avian air force flag (Source) Definition of atheism Is Religion Dangerous?

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South Naples
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Founded: Jan 09, 2016
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Postby South Naples » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:43 am

Is it good if private industry makes up 2/3 of my economy?
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Drachmaland
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Drachmaland » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:57 am

New Uden wrote:Is there an issue that allows you to unban private industry?

Issue #152: A Capital Idea, options 152.1 and 152.3.

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Trotterdam
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Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:49 pm

Drachmaland wrote:
New Uden wrote:Is there an issue that allows you to unban private industry?
Issue #152: A Capital Idea, options 152.1 and 152.3.
Also #339 The Bear Necessities option 3.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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New Korbinia
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Founded: Dec 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby New Korbinia » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:16 pm

Gonna option one. I don't give a damn about employment. Trying to create nation of sentient computers anyway.

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