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[SUBMITTED] Here's The Catch

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Kylarnatia
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[SUBMITTED] Here's The Catch

Postby Kylarnatia » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:27 am

[Title] Here's The Catch

[Description] Long ago, @@NAME@@ and the small yet formidable city-state of Didopolis fought a war that eventually ground to a halt and concluded without a formal peace treaty. Relations have improved steadily over time and trade has been flourishing for decades. However, a small flotilla of Didopolitan and @@DEMONYM@@ fishing vessels recently clashed over territorial disputes, and violence ensued.

[Validity] All

[Option] "Those damn Didopolitans were fishing in our area and stealing our catch!" shouts @@RANDOMNAME@@, a sailor from the Aurora, one of the @@DEMONYM@@ trawlers involved in the incident. "Ramming them was the only way to get them to back off. So what if some of them almost drowned, we're still technically at war aren't we? You should be mobilising the Navy to help protect our interests. The boys and I also deserve some recognition for our actions, don't you think?"
[Effect] naval officers bemoan getting stuck on "crab pot duty"

[Option] "No, no, no! This just won't do at all," cries @@RANDOMNAME@@, your exasperated Minister for Foreign Affairs. "This absolutely thuggish behaviour threatens to throw away the years of hard work my predecessors and I put into building strong relations with Didopolis. We should publicly reprimand our sailors involved in the incident, and we should finally sign a formal peace treaty so that brutes like these can't use it as an excuse for their wanton aggression. Perhaps we should even throw in some of those fish as a sign of good-will?"
[Effect] recent proclamations of peace, love and friendship smell rather fishy

[Option] "Now hang on just a blubber-loving minute. The Didopolitans started it! This wouldn't have happened had our fishermen been adequately equipped to stop such incidents occurring in the first place." complains Captain-turned-Undersecretary for Fisheries and Sea Shanties, Arnold Trout. "I've heard the Navy has stockpiles of unused hardware just lying around. Give the all clear, @@LEADER@@, and we can get to work. Those pesky Didopolitans will have to think twice before trying to take our catch again! Aharr!"
[Effect] wayward fishermen end up getting trapped in a very real game of Minesweeper


Changelog - Updated 23/02/19

  • This draft has now been submitted.

[Title] Didopolis Delenda Est!

[Description] Thousands of years ago, @@CAPITAL@@ and the ancient city-state of Didopolis fought a succession of bitter wars, which eventually led to the total destruction of the latter. It has now been brought to your attention that no peace treaty was ever signed between the two states, meaning that by some absurd technicality, @@NAME@@ and the modern city-state of Didopolis are still technically at war. What has been an otherwise very slow and uneventful day has suddenly turned into a full-on frenzy in the War Room.

[Validity] All

[Option] "Oh deary me, what a peculiar kerfuffle we've gotten ourselves into..." Remarks your bewildered Minister for Foreign Affairs, "There's no need to worry, @@LEADER@@. I can just make a call to my counter-part over in Didopolis and we can settle this little technicality without much fuss. Besides, I'm sure they'll be very grateful."
[Effect] @@LEADER@@ isn't one to hold a grudge

[Option] "Are you serious? We shouldn't be throwing away such a rich opportunity for conquest!" Shouts the disturbingly enthusiastic four-star General @@RANDOMNAME@@, salivating as @@HE@@ grabs you tightly by your shoulders, aggressively pushing your Minister of Foreign Affairs aside. "Didopolis has a huge wealth of untapped oil and rare earth minerals just ripe for the taking. How often do we get presented such a chance without having to go through the tedious process of producing a casus belli first? I say we strike now!"
[Effect] military strategists often visit the nation's archives in order to find old scores to settle

[Option] "Settle down, there isn't any need to be so extreme. I believe this presents us with an even grander opportunity to stir up patriotic sentiment." Calmly remarks your eccentric Propaganda Minister, using a spotted handkerchief to clean the General's spittle off your shirt. "We can turn this quite frankly drab episode of our long-forgotten past into a gold mine of pride for one's nation and heritage. Imagine it, @@LEADER@@: sportsmen and women eager to settle the score against the ancient enemy at international competitions, patriotic songs and performances depicting the heroism of our great ancestors...I can already feel the lump in my throat, and mountains of @@CURRENCY@@ filling our coffers from the huge boost in tourism this could bring. Just let me and my subordinates get to work on this story, and this reinvigorated rivalry will become the talk of @@REGION@@!"
[Effect] even the most mundane diplomatic faux pas is turned into a piece of epic poetry

[Option] "You fools, can't you see? This is a sign from the Gods of old!" raves the rather sickly looking Minister of Antiquities, who has suddenly appeared in the doorway, clutching a rather large and intimidating slab of stone close to his chest. "When our ancient fore-bearers destroyed the accursed city, they intended for it to remain so. Yet Didopolis stands again once more; this cannot be allowed, potential profits be damned! @@LEADER@@, I say unto you: Didopolis Delenda Est!" he points an eerily frail finger at you with a wide-eyed stare as he is dragged away by your guards.
[Validity] Must have a high level of Religiousness
[Effect] long-held superstitions form the basis of @@NAME@@'s hyper-aggressive foreign policy


This draft was inspired by the story of modern-day Rome and Carthage signing a treaty on February 5th, 1985 to officially end the Third Punic War (149-146 BC). I found the story so fascinating and charming, that it inspired me to write this issue, because I felt it'd be something suitable for the whimsical charm that NationStates has, so of course this issue is meant to be a very silly one.

From a brief search of the full list of NS Issues, I couldn't find anything similar, and if there is I'll be extremely gutted because I'm very fond of what I just came up with.

The title is of course a direct reference to the phrase "Carthago Delenda Est.", and the city-state of Didopolis is meant to be a stand-in for Carthage, making reference to Dido herself. I decided to do that because none of the current NPC nations seemed suitable, and I imagined establishing capital cities for any of them wouldn't be acceptable, but let me know what you think.


[Title] The War That Time Forgot

[Description] During the Great @@REGION@@ War, @@NATION@@ and the small yet formidable city-state of Didopolis were on opposing sides. The cold attitude between both nations has mostly thawed since then, with most unaware it was ever any different, however it has recently come back into the spotlight after a small flotilla of Didopolitan fishing vessels deliberately collided with @@DEMONYMADJECTIVE@@ fishermen out at sea. The justification? They claim that both states are still technically at war, which an unsuccessful search in the nation's archives for any form of peace treaty has proven to be true. Before you have time to even process this information, a gaggle of your closest advisers have rushed you off to the War Room.

[Validity] All

[Option] "Oh deary me, what a peculiar kerfuffle we've gotten ourselves into..." Remarks your bewildered Minister for Foreign Affairs, "but there's no need to panic! In fact, this presents us the perfect opportunity to demonstrate our peace-loving nature. Let me reach out to my counterpart in Didopolis and set things straight: we can sign an actual peace treaty, one that expresses a desire for friendship and mutual cooperation. I'm sure we can also throw in some fish to placate their fishermen. Everybody wins!"
[Effect] recent proclamations of peace, love and friendship smell rather fishy

[Option] "Are you serious? We shouldn't be humouring such a blatantly unprovoked attack on our people!" Shouts the enraged Rear Admiral @@RANDOMNAME@@, mouth frothing as @@HE@@ grabs you tightly by your shoulders, aggressively pushing your Minister of Foreign Affairs aside. "If they want to treat this conflict as still ongoing, then let them have it! Just say the word, and I'll dispatch the fleet to deal with these agitators! We'll see who comes running for a peace treaty then."
[Effect] age-old conflicts are still ongoing despite nobody being quite sure what they were fighting for to begin with

[Option] "Now now, there isn't any need to be so extreme. I believe this presents us with an even grander opportunity to stir up patriotic sentiment." Calmly remarks your eccentric Propaganda Minister, using a spotted handkerchief to clean the Rear Admiral's spittle off your shirt. "We can turn this quite frankly minor incident into a gold mine of pride for one's nation and people. Imagine it, @@LEADER@@: patriotic songs and epic dramas commemorating the bravery of our brave fishermen and women in the face of the barbaric Didopolitan aggressors...I can already feel the lump in my throat. Just let me and my subordinates get to work, and this reinvigorated rivalry will become the talk of @@REGION@@!"
[Effect] even the most mundane diplomatic incident is turned into a piece of epic poetry

[Option] "Now hang on just a blubber-loving minute - what does any of that do to help our brave seamen and women who have just been attacked?" Complains Captain-turned-Undersecretary for Fisheries and Sea Shanties, Arnold Trout. "It seems to me that you city-folk once again are missing the real issues effecting the people who, need I remind you, are the lifeblood of this economy. This wouldn't have happened if our sailors were able to adequately defend themselves; lets kit out all our fishing vessels with some of that fancy hardware the Navy has lying around. That way, any foreign fishermen will think twice before trying to pinch our catch! Aharrr!"
[Validity] Must have a large fishing industry
[Effect] the nation's maritime borders are marked on nautical charts with the warning "here there be trigger-happy fools"


So based on the feedback I was given I've decided to go with a complete re-write of the issue, starting this one as a brand-new first draft, though I'll keep the original in the OP for posterity. I've decided to give Candlewhisper's suggestion of fishing boats as a framing device a try: I'm unsure as to whether I've done a good job with this, as I wanted to keep the original premise as the focus while also striking a balance with the fact that fishing was involved. I also decided to keep Didopolis, as a nod to the original draft and as a new NPC nation which could explain why it was easily forgotten and therefore why a war is still technically ongoing in the first place. I'm also worried the draft is a bit wordy.

The title is not an intentional reference to The Land That Time Forgot, I just liked the ring to it.

"Great @@REGION@@ War" is established already in Issue #378, and I took it as part of the framing device based on the examples given by Bears Armed and Trotterdam of warring states being forgotten / left out of peace agreements.

"Arnold Trout" in the last option is meant to be a reference to Archibald Haddock. Speaking of the last option, I'm not sure about the effect line: my other idea was "foreign fishermen find themselves trapped in a very real game of Minesweeper" but I didn't know whether that would work either.

As always, any and all feedback is appreciated. :)


[Title] The War That Time Forgot

[Description] Long ago, @@NAME@@ and the small yet formidable city-state of Didopolis fought a war that eventually ground to a halt and concluded without a formal peace treaty. Relations have improved steadily over time and trade has been flourishing for decades. However, a small flotilla of Didopolitan and @@DEMONYM@@ fishing vessels recently clashed over territorial disputes, and violence ensued.

[Validity] All

[Option] "Those damn Didopolitan's were fishing in our area and stealing our catch!" Shouts @@RANDOMNAME@@, a sailor from the S.S. Aurora, one of the @@DEMONYM@@ trawlers involved in the incident. "Ramming them was the only way to get them to back off. So what if some of them almost drowned, we're still technically at war aren't we? You should be mobilising the Navy to help protect our interests. The boys and I also deserve some recognition for our actions, don't you think?"
[Effect] naval officers bemoan getting stuck on "crab pot duty"

[Option] "No, no, no! This just won't do at all." Cries your exacerbated Minister for Foreign Affairs, "This absolutely thuggish behaviour threatens to throw away the years of hard work my predecessors and I put into building strong relations with Didopolis. We should publicly reprimand our sailors involved in the incident, and we should finally sign a formal peace treaty so that brutes like these can't use it as an excuse for their wanton aggression. Perhaps we should even throw in some of those fish as a sign of good-will?"
[Effect] recent proclamations of peace, love and friendship smell rather fishy

[Option] "Now hang on just a blubber-loving minute. The Didopolitan's started it! This wouldn't have happened had our fishermen been adequately equipped to stop such incidents occurring in the first place." Complains Captain-turned-Undersecretary for Fisheries and Sea Shanties, Arnold Trout. "I've seen the Navy's stockpile of unused mines. Why not let me and the boys take some off their hands? That way, those pesky Didopolitan's will have to think twice before trying to take our catch again! Aharr!"
[Effect] foreign fishermen can end up getting trapped in a very real game of Minesweeper


[Title] Here's The Catch

[Description] Long ago, @@NAME@@ and the small yet formidable city-state of Didopolis fought a war that eventually ground to a halt and concluded without a formal peace treaty. Relations have improved steadily over time and trade has been flourishing for decades. However, a small flotilla of Didopolitan and @@DEMONYM@@ fishing vessels recently clashed over territorial disputes, and violence ensued.

[Validity] All

[Option] "Those damn Didopolitan's were fishing in our area and stealing our catch!" Shouts @@RANDOMNAME@@, a sailor from the S.S. Aurora, one of the @@DEMONYM@@ trawlers involved in the incident. "Ramming them was the only way to get them to back off. So what if some of them almost drowned, we're still technically at war aren't we? You should be mobilising the Navy to help protect our interests. The boys and I also deserve some recognition for our actions, don't you think?"
[Effect] naval officers bemoan getting stuck on "crab pot duty"

[Option] "No, no, no! This just won't do at all." Cries @@RANDOMNAME@@, your exacerbated Minister for Foreign Affairs, "This absolutely thuggish behaviour threatens to throw away the years of hard work my predecessors and I put into building strong relations with Didopolis. We should publicly reprimand our sailors involved in the incident, and we should finally sign a formal peace treaty so that brutes like these can't use it as an excuse for their wanton aggression. Perhaps we should even throw in some of those fish as a sign of good-will?"
[Effect] recent proclamations of peace, love and friendship smell rather fishy

[Option] "Now hang on just a blubber-loving minute. The Didopolitan's started it! This wouldn't have happened had our fishermen been adequately equipped to stop such incidents occurring in the first place." Complains Captain-turned-Undersecretary for Fisheries and Sea Shanties, Arnold Trout. "I've heard the Navy has stockpiles of unused hardware just lying around. Give the all clear, @@LEADER@@, and we can get to work. Those pesky Didopolitan's will have to think twice before trying to take our catch again! Aharr!"
[Effect] wayward fishermen end up getting trapped in a very real game of Minesweeper
Last edited by Kylarnatia on Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:27 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:46 pm

Wait Didopolis still exists?
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Postby Kylarnatia » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:59 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:Wait Didopolis still exists?


I mean, the idea is that some undefined point after ancient Didopolis was destroyed, a new modern Didopolis was established which may or may not be culturally distinct, but the namesake is what creates the peculiar technicality, as it did in the real-life example of Rome and Carthage (a suburb of Tunis). I felt it might get a bit too confusing / beyond the acceptable level of silliness if it was focused on a suburb of an established NPC nation, and was instead focused on it's own confined space (a city-state).
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Postby Sacara » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:18 pm

I’m pretty sure there is an issue with this exact same premise, but I can’t seem to find the right keywords... I’ll keep checking, though.
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Postby Kylarnatia » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:25 pm

Sacara wrote:I’m pretty sure there is an issue with this exact same premise, but I can’t seem to find the right keywords... I’ll keep checking, though.


I had this horrible gut-feeling too, but nothing was coming up when I was searching for keywords with Ctrl+F. Let me know if you find anything though (although I'll be dismayed if it turns out to be the case :( )
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Postby Sacara » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:57 pm

The issue I was thinking of was #980: Small Claims. Kinda the same premise, but not really. Take a look at it and see you what you think.
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Postby Kylarnatia » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:04 pm

Sacara wrote:The issue I was thinking of was #980: Small Claims. Kinda the same premise, but not really. Take a look at it and see you what you think.


I think I was thinking of #1048, which again has a similar sounding premise, but is distinct besides that. The same is true with #980, so I think this draft is still good. :)
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Postby Sanctaria » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:06 pm

Sacara wrote:The issue I was thinking of was #980: Small Claims. Kinda the same premise, but not really. Take a look at it and see you what you think.

Small Claims is based on a completely different premise. It's based on a completely different RL situation too.

Kylarnatia wrote:
Sacara wrote:The issue I was thinking of was #980: Small Claims. Kinda the same premise, but not really. Take a look at it and see you what you think.


I think I was thinking of #1048, which again has a similar sounding premise, but is distinct besides that. The same is true with #980, so I think this draft is still good. :)

1048 may cover similar ground, so important to be careful here.

Otherwise, though, I'm happy for you to continue working on this. Strong first draft but would be good to get other perspectives on it. I think that the premise is such that having it in the base would be good.
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Postby Jutsa » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:27 pm

I love this, Kylarnatia. :)

One thing feels a tiny bit off, however. The writing's good, and the options are all good,
but here's the thing: three of the options involve still being at war with them.

Now, I get the differences between them: Pillage, national pride and war for show, and total destruction.
But I feel like it's a bit too much. Maybe you could have only one "radical war option" at the very end? That way it sort-of builds up in scale the farther down you read?

Speaking of which, another interesting option would be to try and silently cover it up, and leave it a dark secret that only leaders would remember,
in the event something goes horribly awry with the city-state, yet still keeping things clean and not making a whole big diplomatic thing out of it for the time-being.
Not saying it's a must, but I would dare say that it's a nice option that's neither "Make peace" nor "Go to war!". :P

Also, you're a very good writer, Kylarnatia. But I suppose that's to be expected from a RP mentor. :)
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Postby Trotterdam » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:20 pm

Jutsa wrote:Now, I get the differences between them: Pillage, national pride and war for show, and total destruction.
I understood the third option as endorsing friendly competition via sports challenges and so on, not actual war.

Jutsa wrote:Speaking of which, another interesting option would be to try and silently cover it up, and leave it a dark secret that only leaders would remember,[
I don't think there's anything to cover up. Long ago, there was a war between two nations, neither of which exist anymore as they had long since been replaced by successor states, so there's really no reason for it to have any legal standing. There isn't a problem here, it's just people using some ancient history as an excuse for a PR stunt.

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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:39 am

For me, the biggest overlap is 701.

Not because of the premise, but because of the referencing: some of the humour in 701 is built around the quote "carthago delenda est".

I think an issue that references the same phrase more strongly would diminish the humour in 701, and so I wouldn't be in favour of it.

The premise of this issue would be fine to continue with though, if you could remove the references to Carthage.
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Postby Kylarnatia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:53 am

Sanctaria wrote:1048 may cover similar ground, so important to be careful here.


Apologies - I will keep that in mind. :)

Sanctaria wrote:I think that the premise is such that having it in the base would be good.


It may be that because I haven't had my morning coffee yet this is confusing me more than it should, but what do you mean by "having it in the base"? x)

Jutsa wrote:I love this, Kylarnatia. :)


Thank you! :hug: Thank you for your criticisms on it too, though I think Trott addressed them in the same way that I would. I'll look over the language again though, see if there's a need to distinguish them a bit more.

Trotterdam wrote:Long ago, there was a war between two nations, neither of which exist anymore as they had long since been replaced by successor states, so there's really no reason for it to have any legal standing. There isn't a problem here, it's just people using some ancient history as an excuse for a PR stunt.


If it wasn't already clear by the tone of the issue, this is very deliberate. I'm well aware that there is no legal standing, as there wasn't when Rome and Carthage signed their treaty in 1985 (also, if you read it cynically, as a PR stunt), but this is meant to be a silly issue. When the description says "by some absurd technicality", it effectively means "Well, I guess if you were to take it literally it'd mean we're still at war, but..." but the idea is that the more overenthusiastic advisers rushed Leader off to the War Room before they had a chance to properly think it over.

I guess I could have Option One make the point about the lack of actual legality, and make that option more into the diplomatic PR stunt (in the same vein as Rome and Carthage), but I'd want to avoid making it so blunt as to make the reader go "then why am I here, then?" :P

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:For me, the biggest overlap is 701.

Not because of the premise, but because of the referencing: some of the humour in 701 is built around the quote "carthago delenda est".

I think an issue that references the same phrase more strongly would diminish the humour in 701, and so I wouldn't be in favour of it.

The premise of this issue would be fine to continue with though, if you could remove the references to Carthage.


...I knew there was an issue with a direct reference to Carthage somewhere, goddamnit. #701 must burn! :P

While I'm torn on whether I think it does diminish the humour, I'm willing to concede so that this doesn't have to go to waste. I'm assuming the main culprit is the actual phrase "...Delenda Est." - would Didopolis still be acceptable, or would that have to be changed as well?

Thanks for all the feedback so far, folks - I really appreciate it. :)
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:20 am

For sure, but why does it need to be ancient war and a destroyed city at all?

It could just be a historical war that petered out but with no formal peace treaty ever taking place.

For example, the Korean War had fighting cease for some 65 years before peace was finally made last year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

I believe they're called frozen conflicts, and a lot of them exist. An issue on how these are approached may have more relevance and believability than one referring to wars happening in ancient times. For one thing, the idea of peace treaties may not even have been widespread in the Ancient era, and for another, very few nations have had continuity of governmental system between then and now.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:23 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:For sure, but why does it need to be ancient war and a destroyed city at all?

It could just be a historical war that petered out but with no formal peace treaty ever taking place.

For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

I believe they're called frozen conflicts, and a lot of them exist. An issue on how these are approached may have more relevance and believability than one referring to wars happening in ancient times. For one thing, the idea of peace treaties may not even have been widespread in the Ancient era, and for another, very few nations have had continuity of governmental system between then and now.

The Korean war is too recent
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:25 am

That's the point, it's relevant because it's recent.

Nobody would expect the activities of an ancient version of a modern nationstate to have any bearing on its diplomatic commitments today.

Also, of course, it may be too assumptive to force players to say they have nations that existed in ancient times, especially as most modern nations in RL didn't.

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Postby Kylarnatia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:32 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:For sure, but why does it need to be ancient war and a destroyed city at all?

It could just be a historical war that petered out but with no formal peace treaty ever taking place.

For example, the Korean War had fighting cease for some 65 years before peace was finally made last year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

I believe they're called frozen conflicts, and a lot of them exist. An issue on how these are approached may have more relevance and believability than one referring to wars happening in ancient times. For one thing, the idea of peace treaties may not even have been widespread in the Ancient era, and for another, very few nations have had continuity of governmental system between then and now.


Hmmmm, that's a fair point, and I had considered it. I had this feeling that the scenario of a "frozen conflict" had been touched upon before though, or is that just me? Also, I feel like moving away from the premise too much would lose the charm of it's inspiration, though maybe that again is just me.

Also, speaking as an ancient historian / Egyptologist, treaties of various kinds appear very early on in the archaeological record and in some cases form the basis of our knowledge of some territorial states having existed at all. As for the continuity of government, that of course is true, but that didn't stop what happened between Rome and Carthage taking place despite not only complete changes in government, but in society and culture as well. Again, this issue is meant to be a little more on the whimsical side.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Also, of course, it may be too assumptive to force players to say they have nations that existed in ancient times, especially as most modern nations in RL didn't.


That however is a fair point. When I get to redrafting this, I'll take the approach that you've suggested, but I think it would be good to at least put some distance between the war in question and the present, just because I feel that if it was too recent then it wouldn't make sense for the revelation that a peace treaty was never signed to come as such a surprise.
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:07 am

I think historically, it'd be pretty hard for the absence of a treaty to be news anyway. To find an ancient treaty, that'd be news in archaeology. To find that an ancient war that was never known to have a peace treaty still doesn't have a peace treaty... well, that's not news!

Instead, the framing could relate to an event of some sort calling into question the fact that the nations are still at war.

For example, after decades of quiet animosity, the other nation could be applying for an embassy in our nation, with a slight complication being that the nations never formally stopped being at war.
Or perhaps a fishing vessel from our nation got into a violent conflict with a fishing vessel from their nation, and the captain's defence was that the two nations are officially still at war, so this was a patriotic action.

Basically, you could find a framing narrative that brings up the longstanding frozen conflict, and asks you "so, are we still at war or not?"

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Postby Kylarnatia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:21 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I think historically, it'd be pretty hard for the absence of a treaty to be news anyway. To find an ancient treaty, that'd be news in archaeology. To find that an ancient war that was never known to have a peace treaty still doesn't have a peace treaty... well, that's not news!


And yet, it was. But I see your point.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Instead, the framing could relate to an event of some sort calling into question the fact that the nations are still at war.

For example, after decades of quiet animosity, the other nation could be applying for an embassy in our nation, with a slight complication being that the nations never formally stopped being at war.
Or perhaps a fishing vessel from our nation got into a violent conflict with a fishing vessel from their nation, and the captain's defence was that the two nations are officially still at war, so this was a patriotic action.

Basically, you could find a framing narrative that brings up the longstanding frozen conflict, and asks you "so, are we still at war or not?"


Some interesting ideas, I'll give some thought to both. :)
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:25 am

Kylarnatia wrote:And yet, it was. But I see your point.


No, the news story was that they'd signed a treaty as a symbolic show of friendship after two millennia, not that they'd recently discovered the absence of a treaty.

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Postby Kylarnatia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:26 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Kylarnatia wrote:And yet, it was. But I see your point.


No, the news story was that they'd signed a treaty as a symbolic show of friendship after two millennia, not that they'd recently discovered the absence of a treaty.


Exactly, the issue is framed on the idea that you can do the same, or do the complete opposite if you wish because this is NationStates. :P

I'm teasing you. ;) I genuinely appreciate all the advice you've been giving, it's super helpful, and I will take it on board like I said in the re-drafting process. :)
Last edited by Kylarnatia on Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bears Armed » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:09 am

Back in WW1, Andorra declared war on Germany. Its government's invitation to the Versailles conference was lost n the post(!), so it never ratified the treaty and thus remained technically at war with Germany -- despite effective neutrality during WW2 -- until a separate peace-treaty was eventually arranged [with West Germany] in 1958. I'm not sure, but it might have remained technically at war with East Germany until Reunification...
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:50 am

Kylarnatia wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
No, the news story was that they'd signed a treaty as a symbolic show of friendship after two millennia, not that they'd recently discovered the absence of a treaty.


Exactly, the issue is framed on the idea that you can do the same, or do the complete opposite if you wish because this is NationStates. :P

I'm teasing you. ;) I genuinely appreciate all the advice you've been giving, it's super helpful, and I will take it on board like I said in the re-drafting process. :)


Well, winding it back to that step, I'd guess you'd need to find out what triggered the idea of bringing that symbolic show up. There must have been some trigger that made the politicians want to consider this.

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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:39 am

Kylarnatia wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:Long ago, there was a war between two nations, neither of which exist anymore as they had long since been replaced by successor states, so there's really no reason for it to have any legal standing. There isn't a problem here, it's just people using some ancient history as an excuse for a PR stunt.
If it wasn't already clear by the tone of the issue, this is very deliberate. I'm well aware that there is no legal standing, as there wasn't when Rome and Carthage signed their treaty in 1985 (also, if you read it cynically, as a PR stunt), but this is meant to be a silly issue. When the description says "by some absurd technicality", it effectively means "Well, I guess if you were to take it literally it'd mean we're still at war, but..." but the idea is that the more overenthusiastic advisers rushed Leader off to the War Room before they had a chance to properly think it over.

I guess I could have Option One make the point about the lack of actual legality, and make that option more into the diplomatic PR stunt (in the same vein as Rome and Carthage), but I'd want to avoid making it so blunt as to make the reader go "then why am I here, then?"
Yeah, I was responding specifically to Jutsa's suggestion though, which I feel doesn't make sense in this context.

If that inspires you to make any other improvements to the issue to address that detail, great, but that wasn't my point.




Incidentally, I've been doing some reading on the real-life inspiration and concluded that treating the Third Punic War as ongoing doesn't make sense... even as a technicality. See, the destruction of Punic Carthage by the Romans in 146 BC wasn't the end. The Romans rebuilt Carthage as a Roman city, which rather implies that they had no more hostile intent to it (so long as it remained loyal, of course), unless you consider the Romans to have been at war with themselves during that time. Then the Vandal Empire conquered Carthage from what was left of the Romans in 439 AD, then the Byzantine Empire (which claimed to be a successor state to the Roman Empire, even though it didn't control the city of Rome) conquered it "back" from the Vandal Empire in 533, and then the Umayyad Caliphate conquered it from the Byzantine Empire, the Byzantines briefly conquered it back, and the annoyed Umayyad Caliphate, rather ironically, decided that Carthage had to be utterly destroyed in 698. The people living in the area today, still mostly being Muslim Arabs (well, Arab-Berbers), are cultural descendants of these conquerors, not the original Phoenician people. So if anything, that's the conflict that people should be making a peace treaty about.

While I was reading up on this, I also found another case of a symbolic modern peace treaty for an ancient war... between Sparta and Athens, which were part of the same nation-state by that time.




Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Also, of course, it may be too assumptive to force players to say they have nations that existed in ancient times, especially as most modern nations in RL didn't.
Though, the European-Americans in the United States signing a peace treaty over some ancient conflict between Native Americans would be perfectly in keeping with the spirit of this story. Just too bad the Native Americans didn't keep a lot of written records, so we wouldn't know about those conflicts.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:For example, the Korean War had fighting cease for some 65 years before peace was finally made last year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
Bears Armed wrote:Back in WW1, Andorra declared war on Germany. Its government's invitation to the Versailles conference was lost n the post(!), so it never ratified the treaty and thus remained technically at war with Germany -- despite effective neutrality during WW2 -- until a separate peace-treaty was eventually arranged [with West Germany] in 1958. I'm not sure, but it might have remained technically at war with East Germany until Reunification...
An even funnier modern example?
Wikipedia wrote:Huéscar was at war with Denmark, as a result of the Napoleonic wars over Spain, where Denmark supported the French Empire. The official declaration of war was forgotten until it was discovered by a local historian in 1981, followed by the signing of a peace treaty on 11 November 1981 by the city mayor and the Ambassador of Denmark. Not a single shot was fired during the 172 years of war, and nobody was killed or injured.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kylarnatia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:55 pm

I'm right in saying that "Great @@REGION@@ War" is canon? (EDIT: Yep, #378). Thinking I could use it as part of the framing device if I went with the suggestion of either Bears Armed or Trott.

Or I could go with the Frozen War suggestion of Candlewhisper: I'm thinking of a scout troop incidentally crossing the border (which is inspired by RL incidents between Switzerland and Lichtenstein iirc), or a shepherd and his flock going a field too far. :P
Last edited by Kylarnatia on Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:16 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:That's the point, it's relevant because it's recent.

Nobody would expect the activities of an ancient version of a modern nationstate to have any bearing on its diplomatic commitments today.

Also, of course, it may be too assumptive to force players to say they have nations that existed in ancient times, especially as most modern nations in RL didn't.

Yea, but I never said ancient. 150, 200 years should suffice. Not 60, like the Koreas
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