The Rejected Realms Embassy

[Toerana]

I just realized, thanks to Cormac, that we can just call things irrelevant and ignore them.

Therefore, I call everything Cormac said irrelevant. Thank you for the debate, I have won.

Because stooping to Cormac's level is by far the most mature way to go about it.

[Unibot III]

Uni,

On defense of the Peace Accords: I really looked forward to them. I really went into them with a full heart and desire to correct the mistakes of the past. I really want them to WORK. However, I also didn't had full control of the other players in the Senate then and sadly, I was in the minority who was against what happened later. I've always been very open about this. I was overruled.

You can believe it or not, I honestly don't care about what you want or don't want to believe. But I really WANTED TRR and NPO to become friendly when we created the accords. Well, when you created them and I worked my ass in the Senate to get the internal support they needed. But, alas, things happened the way they happened and I can't do much about it, as I am not a time traveler.

Shit happens.

Hi Ele. Of course, I believe you. I enjoyed drafting the Peace Accords with you, and I believed in the idea that our two regions could charter a new relationship and was prepared to defend to other rejects (which at the time included a number of refugees from the August Revolution.)

If my opinion meant anything (and it doesn’t!), I would say that I would be supportive of the government’s decision to reopen embassies — TRR should welcome an opportunity to exchange communication on a community-basis with residents of the Pacific. TRR and the Pacific are two communities of fate, pulled into different directions by the revolution. The last frontier of a Great War. The final resting places of Francos Spain. The history between these two regions is complicated and storied.

I think it’s worth bearing in mind, it was not TRR that cancelled the Peace Accords. NPO terminated the Peace Accords. The key takeaway from my experience with the NLO was that TRR could only trust democratic regions as allies going forward. You’ve said it yourself, you were a regent — second in command — and you were kept out of the loop on something like the NLO.

When you have a treaty with a democracy, your treaty is with the region, when your treaty is with an autocracy, it’s in all reality a treaty with the emperor. There is more turnover of elected officials but the fact that it’s the same populace voting on these officials brings continuity in terms of the values and the conduct of the regional government abroad. When you’re partnered with an autocracy, an emperor can bring in radical changes to their senate, boot out long time members, and lie as much as they like. They’re not held accountable. The behaviour of the region can change dramatically if the region transitions to a new emperor. For instance, the first thing that Ivan did when he became emperor was cancel the Peace Accords, because he was never comfortable as a senator with normalizing relations with defender regions.

I would pursue a decision like the one Jamie has pursued if I were delegate (I am not! ), but I wouldn’t be inclined to pursue a partnership with NPO unless there was a political process in place in NPO to hold high office-holders to account by the region. NPO currently seems to operate on severe international condemnation as its accountability mechanism. Democracy promotes popular regional sovereignty. In TRR, bad officials are voted out by TRRers. In NPO, bad officials are voted out by NSGP via a global inundation of condemnations & statements.

[Cormactopia Prime]

<snip>

I can't say I agree that what you've laid out is enough for me to believe the NPO has reformed, but all of it seems like a reasonable basis for the South Pacific to have reached its determination. I hope it doesn't turn out to be the wrong decision, like any past decision any region has ever made to normalize relations with the NPO.

I appreciate you actually offering a reasoned response instead of... whatever the rest of the responses up to now have been. A class act, as usual, and maybe the other people in this thread will learn something from it. If nothing else, that it got me to shut up in a single post instead of several pages of nonsense.

[Big Bad Badger]

Still more relevant and better regarded in GP than you, though

I'll take Cormac.

[Chimes]

Statement on NPO Embassy Closure

Due to recent events, regarding The Pacific within The Rejected Realms, I have liased with Xoriet and they have advised they do not wish to cause further internal drama - in particular making long term members leave. As such, the embassy between The Pacific and The Rejected Realms has been withdrawn. My support for the embassy is unchanged and I am saddened that it has come to this, but I will respect the decision by The Pacific. It is also my hope this will bring an end to any internal tensions brought about by this embassy.

Chimes, Delegate of The Rejected Realms

[Cormactopia Prime]

Congratulations to citizens of the Rejected Realms for making their voices heard and, for now at least, avoiding what would probably turn out to be a huge mistake.

Also just a note to mention that the appallingly undiplomatic conduct of Senator Jar Wattinree on the Rejected Realms' RMB, as well as the few random "Hail NPO!" declarations posted in the brief time the embassy has been open, all despite the contentious nature of this, really ought to give folks some pause. With people like Jar Wattinree still in the Senate, someone who was very much in favor of Pergamon, Feux, et al. and who clearly still has not learned his lesson about how to respect other regions, it bears questioning whether the NPO has really rooted out every hardline loyalist of the old regime as some have stated.

Regardless, the conduct was classless and frankly the NPO should apologize and outline what disciplinary action they intend to take, if any. In any case, that seems like a discussion for the NPO's embassy, so out of respect for the Rejected Realms and letting this die down there that's where I'll take this now.

[The Moonstar]

Congratulations to citizens of the Rejected Realms for making their voices heard and, for now at least, avoiding what would probably turn out to be a huge mistake.

Also just a note to mention that the appallingly undiplomatic conduct of Senator Jar Wattinree on the Rejected Realms' RMB, as well as the few random "Hail NPO!" declarations posted in the brief time the embassy has been open, all despite the contentious nature of this, really ought to give folks some pause. With people like Jar Wattinree still in the Senate, someone who was very much in favor of Pergamon, Feux, et al. and who clearly still has not learned his lesson about how to respect other regions, it bears questioning whether the NPO has really rooted out every hardline loyalist of the old regime as some have stated.

Regardless, the conduct was classless and frankly the NPO should apologize and outline what disciplinary action they intend to take, if any. In any case, that seems like a discussion for the NPO's embassy, so out of respect for the Rejected Realms and letting this die down there that's where I'll take this now.

I just went through Jar's posts and I see nothing that's anything but joking around. You know like people normally do, joke around. Nothing of which seems to cross any line. Unless I'm missing some posts or something, please enlighten.

Without anything damning that I can find in RMB posts, in TRR or the Pacific (aside from Bowshot's attempts to propagandize against the NPO), the only thing I can see here based on what Jamie says above is that TRR seems split in this whole affair and the minority that lost out (cause you know in Democracies there is always a minority that loses) are so mad they decided to throw some tantrum ultimatum and quit. So TRR instead of letting them do whatever they feel is going to give in to the minority's pressure.

If this is not the case, can TRR explain what the issue is?

[Fauxia]

Congratulations to citizens of the Rejected Realms for making their voices heard and, for now at least, avoiding what would probably turn out to be a huge mistake.

Also just a note to mention that the appallingly undiplomatic conduct of Senator Jar Wattinree on the Rejected Realms' RMB, as well as the few random "Hail NPO!" declarations posted in the brief time the embassy has been open, all despite the contentious nature of this, really ought to give folks some pause. With people like Jar Wattinree still in the Senate, someone who was very much in favor of Pergamon, Feux, et al. and who clearly still has not learned his lesson about how to respect other regions, it bears questioning whether the NPO has really rooted out every hardline loyalist of the old regime as some have stated.

Regardless, the conduct was classless and frankly the NPO should apologize and outline what disciplinary action they intend to take, if any. In any case, that seems like a discussion for the NPO's embassy, so out of respect for the Rejected Realms and letting this die down there that's where I'll take this now.

Thank you for explaining to me what we rejects should be offended about. Next time someone makes a joke on the RMB, I am sure the government will demand an apology.

[Toerana]

Without anything damning that I can find in RMB posts, in TRR or the Pacific (aside from Bowshot's attempts to propagandize against the NPO)

Lol Mek - because all beliefs contrary to your own must be propaganda.

Thank you for explaining to me what we rejects should be offended about. Next time someone makes a joke on the RMB, I am sure the government will demand an apology.

While they are obviously jokes, I think it was a bit insensitive to jump in with jokes about "annexation" as soon as the embassy was opened. While not severe, many members of the region have been very concerned about an NPO embassy and what it may entail for the region. At least they could have waited for the embassy to have been around for a little while before jumping in with those jokes.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Thank you for explaining to me what we rejects should be offended about. Next time someone makes a joke on the RMB, I am sure the government will demand an apology.

I'm not going to get into a prolonged back and forth about this, but I was basing my objection on a citizen of the Rejected Realms characterizing the behavior as "taunting" on the NSGP server and my agreement with that characterization, so it's not as though I had no basis to think any Reject would consider it offensive. The above post by Toerana is another example, and Crazy Girl expressed that she wasn't fond of the "Hail NPO!"s that were subsequently posted by others.

It might be better if you didn't lump everyone into a "we rejects" grouping since clearly citizens of the Rejected Realms are somewhat divided over this. Maybe you weren't offended, but at least three other citizens of your region were, so I guess I wasn't completely off base in my criticism.

[Fauxia]

Thank you for explaining to me what we rejects should be offended about. Next time someone makes a joke on the RMB, I am sure the government will demand an apology.

While they are obviously jokes, I think it was a bit insensitive to jump in with jokes about "annexation" as soon as the embassy was opened. While not severe, many members of the region have been very concerned about an NPO embassy and what it may entail for the region. At least they could have waited for the embassy to have been around for a little while before jumping in with those jokes.

Suit yourself, Bow.

Thank you for explaining to me what we rejects should be offended about. Next time someone makes a joke on the RMB, I am sure the government will demand an apology.

I'm not going to get into a prolonged back and forth about this, but I was basing my objection to a citizen of the Rejected Realms characterizing the behavior as "taunting" on the NSGP server and my agreement with that characterization, so it's not as though I had no basis to think any Reject would consider it offensive. The above post by Toerana is another example, and Crazy Girl expressed that she wasn't fond of the "Hail NPO!"s that were subsequently posted by others.

It might be better if you didn't lump everyone into a "we rejects" grouping since clearly citizens of the Rejected Realms are somewhat divided over this. Maybe you weren't offended, but at least three other citizens of your region were, so I guess I wasn't completely off base in my criticism.

I understand fully that other citizens were concerned about the stillborn embassy. Mostly I just think it is a rather... odd thing for you to care about.

Edit: Also, I'd note that three citizens finding something irritating is not usually the bar for demanding an apology. If that is now the case, maybe it's time GP closed up shop altogether, because that seems like it is going to be a problem more often than it's worth.

[The Church of Satan]

and the minority that lost out (cause you know in Democracies there is always a minority that loses) are so mad they decided to throw some tantrum ultimatum and quit. So TRR instead of letting them do whatever they feel is going to give in to the minority's pressure.

This was by the way, ultimately the deciding factor. Democracy failed this day. However insensitive a joke at the hands of Jar, the deplorable behavior of some of TRR's citizens is what won here. This is not something to celebrate.

[Cormactopia Prime]

This was by the way, ultimately the deciding factor. Democracy failed this day. However insensitive a joke at the hands of Jar, the deplorable behavior of some of TRR's citizens is what won here. This is not something to celebrate.

What deplorable behavior are you referring to? I don't know what's been going on behind the scenes on the Rejected Realms' forum or Discord server, but all the rest of us (presumably including the NPO) have been able to see was Toerana posting civil and reasonable objections to the embassy here, one or two other citizens noting on the NSGP server in a pretty mild tone that they found the posts on your RMB to be taunting, and Crazy Girl temporarily moving her main nation out of the region but still keeping another nation there because she wasn't fond of seeing the "Hail NPO" on the RMB while she was moderating.

Can you explain to me how any of that is deplorable instead of them reasonably expressing their views, or are you referring to something else? If this is all there is, it would seem less a case of them doing anything deplorable and more a case of you finding any disagreement with your own views deplorable.

[Guy]

Congratulations to citizens of the Rejected Realms for making their voices heard and, for now at least, avoiding what would probably turn out to be a huge mistake.

Also just a note to mention that the appallingly undiplomatic conduct of Senator Jar Wattinree on the Rejected Realms' RMB, as well as the few random "Hail NPO!" declarations posted in the brief time the embassy has been open, all despite the contentious nature of this, really ought to give folks some pause. With people like Jar Wattinree still in the Senate, someone who was very much in favor of Pergamon, Feux, et al. and who clearly still has not learned his lesson about how to respect other regions, it bears questioning whether the NPO has really rooted out every hardline loyalist of the old regime as some have stated.

Regardless, the conduct was classless and frankly the NPO should apologize and outline what disciplinary action they intend to take, if any. In any case, that seems like a discussion for the NPO's embassy, so out of respect for the Rejected Realms and letting this die down there that's where I'll take this now.

I just went through Jar's posts and I see nothing that's anything but joking around. You know like people normally do, joke around. Nothing of which seems to cross any line. Unless I'm missing some posts or something, please enlighten.

Without anything damning that I can find in RMB posts, in TRR or the Pacific (aside from Bowshot's attempts to propagandize against the NPO), the only thing I can see here based on what Jamie says above is that TRR seems split in this whole affair and the minority that lost out (cause you know in Democracies there is always a minority that loses) are so mad they decided to throw some tantrum ultimatum and quit. So TRR instead of letting them do whatever they feel is going to give in to the minority's pressure.

If this is not the case, can TRR explain what the issue is?

The region is very evenly split about relations with the NPO. There were internal democratic processes on foot in TRR for the region to determine what is to be done about the embassy when the NPO decided to close it.

The NPO’s decision to close the embassy is purely its own and it is solely for the NPO to wear. Taking its statement at face value, I think the NPO decided relations with a region approximately half of whose citizens do not desire those relations are unlikely to be fruitful.

[The Church of Satan]

What deplorable behavior are you referring to? I don't know what's been going on behind the scenes on the Rejected Realms' forum or Discord server, but all the rest of us (presumably including the NPO) have been able to see was Toerana posting civil and reasonable objections to the embassy here, one or two other citizens noting on the NSGP server in a pretty mild tone that they found the posts on your RMB to be taunting, and Crazy Girl temporarily moving her main nation out of the region but still keeping another nation there because she wasn't fond of seeing the "Hail NPO" on the RMB while she was moderating.

Can you explain to me how any of that is deplorable instead of them reasonably expressing their views, or are you referring to something else? If this is all there is, it would seem less a case of them doing anything deplorable and more a case of you finding any disagreement with your own views deplorable.

Behind the scenes is exactly where it took place. However I'm not one for leaking information. Some of our citizens did act in bad faith during this whole thing. One even hit a new low.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Behind the scenes is exactly where it took place. However I'm not one for leaking information. Some of our citizens did act in bad faith during this whole thing. One even hit a new low.

I'm unsure that offering vague descriptions of behind the scenes things to portray the people you disagree with in a negative light is actually any better than outright leaking it. Which, I mean, don't leak -- but what I'm saying is if the rest of us can't see it, "trust me, they were very bad" doesn't do much for us. If it was behind the scenes stuff happening in the Rejected Realms that you can't or shouldn't talk about, maybe you just shouldn't talk about it at all, no?

In any case, I hope whatever divisions were created by this are repaired. The NPO really isn't worth so much apparent strife.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Drop the logs CoS. Celebrate Cormac coming back with a massive log dump.

[Bormiar]

Due to recent events, regarding The Pacific within The Rejected Realms, I have liased with Xoriet and they have advised they do not wish to cause further internal drama - in particular making long term members leave. As such, the embassy between The Pacific and The Rejected Realms has been withdrawn. My support for the embassy is unchanged and I am saddened that it has come to this, but I will respect the decision by The Pacific. It is also my hope this will bring an end to any internal tensions brought about by this embassy.

What happened? I've been gone for a while now, but I don't believe that Cormac and Unibot's complaining determines TRR's foreign policy. Did something happen outside the NS forums?

[Toerana]

Due to recent events, regarding The Pacific within The Rejected Realms, I have liased with Xoriet and they have advised they do not wish to cause further internal drama - in particular making long term members leave. As such, the embassy between The Pacific and The Rejected Realms has been withdrawn. My support for the embassy is unchanged and I am saddened that it has come to this, but I will respect the decision by The Pacific. It is also my hope this will bring an end to any internal tensions brought about by this embassy.

What happened? I've been gone for a while now, but I don't believe that Cormac and Unibot's complaining determines TRR's foreign policy. Did something happen outside the NS forums?

All relevant info is on our regional forums Borm :P I believe you're still a citizen.

[The Church of Satan]

I'm unsure that offering vague descriptions of behind the scenes things to portray the people you disagree with in a negative light is actually any better than outright leaking it. Which, I mean, don't leak -- but what I'm saying is if the rest of us can't see it, "trust me, they were very bad" doesn't do much for us. If it was behind the scenes stuff happening in the Rejected Realms that you can't or shouldn't talk about, maybe you just shouldn't talk about it at all, no?

And sweep their dirty little secret under the rug just as they did? I'd rather not.

Drop the logs CoS. Celebrate Cormac coming back with a massive log dump.

I'm not so sure I want to encourage Cormac, heh.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I'm unsure that offering vague descriptions of behind the scenes things to portray the people you disagree with in a negative light is actually any better than outright leaking it. Which, I mean, don't leak -- but what I'm saying is if the rest of us can't see it, "trust me, they were very bad" doesn't do much for us. If it was behind the scenes stuff happening in the Rejected Realms that you can't or shouldn't talk about, maybe you just shouldn't talk about it at all, no?

And sweep their dirty little secret under the rug just as they did? I'd rather not.

Drop the logs CoS. Celebrate Cormac coming back with a massive log dump.

I'm not so sure I want to encourage Cormac, heh.

Or you look no better than others did in this situation and that's the real reason you are offering cryptic comments but no details.

It's easy to offer self-serving vague assertions when no one is supposed to spill the full details, and you're counting on those who disagreed with you to respect the integrity of citizen-only areas and not stand up and rebut your nonsense with either vague counter-assertions or full evidence. To do that would be to stoop to your level of disrespect for the integrity of private matters. You are, in other words, counting on your fellow citizens to be better than you.

And yet, my friend, I'm fully aware of what happened because as per usual there is always someone who will spill the tea to me unsolicited, and as per usual you don't come out on any higher ground than anyone else; you just think you do. That is all I'll say, but otherwise I too intend to respect the right to private, citizen-only discussion, because this time around I intend to do things differently and be better than I was before. Maybe you should try it sometime.

[The Church of Satan]

As always, you respect privacy when it suits you. You agree with their actions because you think an embassy with The Pacific is a bad idea, just as they do. We all know this is how you operate.

[Kylia Quilor]

You don't seem to be covering yourself in honor here either, CoS.

[Alfonzo]

This is why we can't have nice things here.

[The Church of Satan]

You don't seem to be covering yourself in honor here either, CoS.

Except the fundamental difference between him and me is that for him, the ends always justify the means.