NationStates

The Church of Satan wrote:I'd hate to be proven wrong, but I feel like for the first time, in all my time in NationStates, The Pacific might actually want friends instead of colonies. Moving on from Francoism sounded too good to be true, but they appear to have finally left it behind. Their reforms certainly sound convincing. I'm not denying the possibility that it's all a really big ruse, but until I'm proven wrong, I'm prepared to give reconciliation a shot.

Until they coup another region, that is.

Toerana wrote:

The Church of Satan wrote:I'd hate to be proven wrong, but I feel like for the first time, in all my time in NationStates, The Pacific might actually want friends instead of colonies. Moving on from Francoism sounded too good to be true, but they appear to have finally left it behind. Their reforms certainly sound convincing. I'm not denying the possibility that it's all a really big ruse, but until I'm proven wrong, I'm prepared to give reconciliation a shot.

Until they coup another region, that is.

Pretty much. Can't say I could ever be convinced again if this turns out to be a big ol' lie to prepare for the next coup though.

The Moonstar wrote:

The Church of Satan wrote:I'd hate to be proven wrong, but I feel like for the first time, in all my time in NationStates, The Pacific might actually want friends instead of colonies. Moving on from Francoism sounded too good to be true, but they appear to have finally left it behind. Their reforms certainly sound convincing. I'm not denying the possibility that it's all a really big ruse, but until I'm proven wrong, I'm prepared to give reconciliation a shot.

That's because Xoriet and Elegarth and some others would do whatever they could to not let things like that happen. The people who would be for playing the game in ways like that don't really exist in the NPO anymore or are inactive/play things other than NS. Finally the current leadership and contributors to the region that aren't the gameplay types like Xori/Ele don't really play polsim stuff like we do in NS.

Even if it were to be assumed no one cared about non NPO opinions or reactions, it would be too much a bother to do any of it anyways.

This 100%. I'm mostly now active in another game that's hard to be torn away from, along with a decent portion of the old guard, who we just maintain our nations in NS rather than anything else.

Toerana wrote:

The Church of Satan wrote:I'd hate to be proven wrong, but I feel like for the first time, in all my time in NationStates, The Pacific might actually want friends instead of colonies. Moving on from Francoism sounded too good to be true, but they appear to have finally left it behind. Their reforms certainly sound convincing. I'm not denying the possibility that it's all a really big ruse, but until I'm proven wrong, I'm prepared to give reconciliation a shot.

Until they coup another region, that is.

At least make your empty propaganda exciting.

It is completely and totally understandable that people aren’t convinced that change is possible in a region that has continually failed to meet everyone’s expectations that change happened. However, realistically, after the NLO only a portion of the people who were involved in the PRL and the NLO government were actually banned. Feux and Stu led it, but the other major NPO players or players who became major in NPO after this who had been part of Lazarus in an active manner had not. It should not come as a huge surprise to anyone that failing to remove every party that actively participated in Lazarus at that time would not be completely “over it”, so to speak.

This time around, everyone who cared about the NLO is no longer a member of the NPO. The current administration has no interest in Lazarus. If the old NPO had never thrown out their fascination with Lazarus entirely, the current one has no interest in it, especially in that manner. I was even part of two militaries that opposed the NLO. So no, I still have no interest in impinging on Lazarus’ sovereignty. There is no gain, no value, and no purpose in further disrupting that community. Neither does anyone else on the Senate believe that it is something in which we would invest interest or time. Any “danger” would come from miscalculating who can be trusted as our eventual replacements, and I am completely committed to finding and training someone to succeed me who will not let the NPO down as have past administrations and members. We have invested way too much effort into undoing past stupidity to actively desire to start all over again. Next time, nobody would believe change is ever possible, even people who were willing to give us a chance this time.

There is no value in pursuing hostilities against other GCRs for some absurd reason that boils ultimately down to entitlement and arrogance. This is a second chance if we’re speaking in modern terms. I would not believe that a “next time” would end in a third chance to genuinely reform. It would be completely implausible to ever believe in that should it happen again. That is one reason why we want to do it right this time, so that the past isn’t repeated and there is no future disaster, one that will have no recovery.

So, thank you TRR, for actually putting faith into real change rather than believing that change is impossible and thus reinforce a mold created by past mistakes and misguided or malicious past actors in the NPO.

Can’t say I’m particularly a fan of the decision to re-open relationships with the NPO, particularly with so little consultation beforehand

I just don’t get what TRR is missing out on by not having relations with them

Crowheim wrote:Can’t say I’m particularly a fan of the decision to re-open relationships with the NPO, particularly with so little consultation beforehand

I just don’t get what TRR is missing out on by not having relations with them

Coups do really add some spice to gameplay though, would be nice to include some new drama in the stale GP scene. The NPO is just being nice and helping to facilitate that

Toerana wrote:

Crowheim wrote:Can’t say I’m particularly a fan of the decision to re-open relationships with the NPO, particularly with so little consultation beforehand

I just don’t get what TRR is missing out on by not having relations with them

Coups do really add some spice to gameplay though, would be nice to include some new drama in the stale GP scene. The NPO is just being nice and helping to facilitate that

Yes and I’d be proud to let TRR be the home of their next little project

Crowheim wrote:

Toerana wrote:Coups do really add some spice to gameplay though, would be nice to include some new drama in the stale GP scene. The NPO is just being nice and helping to facilitate that

Yes and I’d be proud to let TRR be the home of their next little project

Rent-A-Sinker

(edit: not a view on npo-trr relations btw just me being dumb)

Crowheim wrote:

Toerana wrote:Coups do really add some spice to gameplay though, would be nice to include some new drama in the stale GP scene. The NPO is just being nice and helping to facilitate that

Yes and I’d be proud to let TRR be the home of their next little project

If TP had any interest in couping, TRR would be the absolute last option. You don’t even have a ban button.

Honestly, this seems like a pretty solid diplomatic achievement by both parties. I'm not as expert as some on NPO history, so maybe I'm naïve, but I generally find Xoriet and Elegarth to be acting in good faith and I think it's worth accepting that the NPO isn't going anywhere, so ostracizing it would only be regressive to what is better for the interregional community.

Quebecshire wrote:Honestly, this seems like a pretty solid diplomatic achievement by both parties. I'm not as expert as some on NPO history, so maybe I'm naïve, but I generally find Xoriet and Elegarth to be acting in good faith and I think it's worth accepting that the NPO isn't going anywhere, so ostracizing it would only be regressive to what is better for the interregional community.

I mean, I fought against the NPO in the Lazarene resistance during two separate coups. If I can move past that, just about anyone can.

I’ll be convinced NPO has changed when it becomes a democracy. It still remains a dictatorship and this is a key point that can be forgotten.

I think folks are looking at whether NPO today is concerned about NSGP or not, or Francoist or not — what is missing from this conversation is the observation that for much of 2011-2017, NPO was publicly rejecting Francoism & insisted its community was not heavily invested in NSGP (preferring roleplay). This is basically what NPO always said about itself.

At one time, I believed it and initiated the Peace Accords — that was a mistake. I don’t think TRR or any other democratic GCR should believe NPO will operate continuously in a way that respects interregional norms and laws. It should not be overlooked how self-government and popular sovereignty impacts a region’s behaviour abroad when its ruling elite can be held accountable to its residents in regularly scheduled elections.

If NPO really wants to distance itself from Francoism, distance yourself from the key component of Francoism and give residents the right to vote for a delegate in free, fair, competitive elections. Popular sovereignty would in all likelihood end the New Pacific Order as we know it. The revolution has always been predicted on a ‘dictatorship of the people.’

Unibot III wrote:If NPO really wants to distance itself from Francoism, distance yourself from the key component of Francoism and give residents the right to vote for a delegate in free, fair, competitive elections. Popular sovereignty would in all likelihood end the New Pacific Order as we know it. The revolution has always been predicted on a ‘dictatorship of the people.’

We actually had regional elections not long ago for who would become the next Emperor. Naturally, everyone voted for Xoriet.

Unfortunately, The Seeker of Power couped the new Emperor and reinstated East Durthang so we're kinda stuck now.

It is an interesting crossover of arrogance, ignorance, and bad faith to imply that,

(1) The alleged issues in the NPO would be resolved by democracy
(2) That a democratic NPO would be remotely in their security interests
(3) That the NPO population should be forced to adopt a system it doesn't want to - just satisfy your political expedience

I'm not a top-tier NS historian, but to pretend that democracy is a magical solution to the NPO as an outsider or to pretend that it's an intelligent security decision for the insiders is exceedingly foolish.

Plus, it's not going to happen, so like, lol.

Unibot III wrote:I’ll be convinced NPO has changed when it becomes a democracy. It still remains a dictatorship and this is a key point that can be forgotten.

Well, Xoriet has said in the NSGP Discord server that the Pacific citizens aren't really a fan of democracy (including the new Vox Populi ones), and if the whole point of democracy is that the people get what they want. If they don't want a democracy then forcing it on them would be undemocratic.

So congratulations to TRR and the NPO!

The Python wrote:

Unibot III wrote:I’ll be convinced NPO has changed when it becomes a democracy. It still remains a dictatorship and this is a key point that can be forgotten.

Well, Xoriet has said in the NSGP Discord server that the Pacific citizens aren't really a fan of democracy (including the new Vox Populi ones), and if the whole point of democracy is that the people get what they want. If they don't want a democracy then forcing it on them would be undemocratic.

So congratulations to TRR and the NPO!

They aren’t. We had our April Fools elections and every single person who wasn’t a cross-citizen from a democratic GCR absolutely hated it. I had to set it up so that you couldn’t reject your nomination and had to participate just so anyone actually would. We have people running on platforms to abolish the only elected position we do have every time that election comes around. That the only democratic government position still stands is because the Senate says so rather than because the populace actually wants it.

Xoriet wrote:

The Python wrote:Well, Xoriet has said in the NSGP Discord server that the Pacific citizens aren't really a fan of democracy (including the new Vox Populi ones), and if the whole point of democracy is that the people get what they want. If they don't want a democracy then forcing it on them would be undemocratic.

So congratulations to TRR and the NPO!

They aren’t. We had our April Fools elections and every single person who wasn’t a cross-citizen from a democratic GCR absolutely hated it. I had to set it up so that you couldn’t reject your nomination and had to participate just so anyone actually would. We have people running on platforms to abolish the only elected position we do have every time that election comes around. That the only democratic government position still stands is because the Senate says so rather than because the populace actually wants it.

Exactly. If the natives don't want democracy, there's no point in forcing it on them.

The Python wrote:Exactly. If the natives don't want democracy, there's no point in forcing it on them.

Only solution is to deport all of the natives to TRR and replace them with new natives who absolutely do love and support democracy.

Jar Wattinree wrote:

The Python wrote:Exactly. If the natives don't want democracy, there's no point in forcing it on them.

Only solution is to deport all of the natives to TRR and replace them with new natives who absolutely do love and support democracy.

Assuming coups are democratic, that is.

Crazy girl wrote:Just checking if there's pigs flying somewhere, I'm agreeing with Cormac.

It happens to the best of us from time to time. Sometimes I'm even surprised to find myself agreeing with me.

Unibot III wrote:<snip>

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this take, because NationStates "democracy" -- which consists of an ever diminishing fragment of a region's population that bothers to join and actively participate in an off-site forum in a world that has moved past forums because this is now the year 2021 and not the year 2001 -- is usually an utter disaster in so many ways. It reduces everything to a popularity contest and encourages the worst kind of demagoguery.

Speaking from my own experience in Osiris, there was never a problem in Osiris that democracy solved, but plenty of problems democracy created (including most of the Delegates who perpetrated coups against Osiris). There were, on the other hand, a number of problems that a heavy-handed, authoritarian purge solved, including some of the problems democracy created, and I don't regret any of the times those happened at this point because now Osiris is a stable region that isn't perpetually at the mercy of its next duly elected couper. I wouldn't wish that state of affairs on my worst enemy, and so I don't wish it on the NPO.

To return to the topic at hand, I don't think anything can reform the NPO, or the Pacific in general without pretty much a wholesale purge (I'm not advocating that, I'm just saying it's what it would take, but it's impossible to pull off anyway). The Pacific is beyond redemption. Regardless though, my comment was less about what could reform the Pacific -- I don't care to have that discussion because I don't believe it's possible -- and more about why the other Feeders and Sinkers occasionally determine "it's time" to do the exact same thing over and over again and expect a different result. I've genuinely never gotten any good answer to that question and I've seen the NPO declared "reformed" at least three times since I started playing NationStates. It's mind boggling to me that this happens again and again.

Jar Wattinree wrote:

Unibot III wrote:If NPO really wants to distance itself from Francoism, distance yourself from the key component of Francoism and give residents the right to vote for a delegate in free, fair, competitive elections. Popular sovereignty would in all likelihood end the New Pacific Order as we know it. The revolution has always been predicted on a ‘dictatorship of the people.’

We actually had regional elections not long ago for who would become the next Emperor. Naturally, everyone voted for Xoriet.

Unfortunately, The Seeker of Power couped the new Emperor and reinstated East Durthang so we're kinda stuck now.

Well, Jar Jar, you realize Xoriet is too well liked and thus in a REAL democracy, Xoriet would be banned from running so there is actually a choice.

Anyway, I find it disappointing that Quebec has posted without saying cope.

Cope y'all.

Fauxia wrote:I find it disappointing that Quebec has posted without saying cope.

Aaaaaaaaaand that's going in the sig, at least for now.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:[
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this take, because NationStates "democracy" -- which consists of an ever diminishing fragment of a region's population that bothers to join and actively participate in an off-site forum in a world that has moved past forums because this is now the year 2021 and not the year 2001 -- is usually an utter disaster in so many ways. It reduces everything to a popularity contest and encourages the worst kind of demagoguery.

Speaking from my own experience in Osiris, there was never a problem in Osiris that democracy solved, but plenty of problems democracy created (including most of the Delegates who perpetrated coups against Osiris). There were, on the other hand, a number of problems that a heavy-handed, authoritarian purge solved, including some of the problems democracy created, and I don't regret any of the times those happened at this point because now Osiris is a stable region that isn't perpetually at the mercy of its next duly elected couper. I wouldn't wish that state of affairs on my worst enemy, and so I don't wish it on the NPO.

I also strongly disagree with this perspective, the democratic GCRs, by in large, have stronger governance, are more responsible to their citizens, and are more respectful of interregional laws & norms.

I think it it is inaccurate to conflate liberal democracy with lax security protocols. The original OFO coup was a democratizing force in Osiris, that in tandem removed a tumour from its regional culture. You can do both. You can be a democracy and remove bad faith actors from the region (and frankly, you should remove bad faith actors.)

I think it is a bit silly to say “NPO is bad” without exploring the underlying reason why NPO is continuously undermining the security of other GCRs and cannot be trusted — this behaviour does not originate from a vacuum. NPO behaves badly because it’s accountable only to the Emperor and the ‘inter-platform’ brand.

Chalking NPO’s behaviour up to individual bad actors, doesn’t address the fact that NPO has farmed generations of new bad actors — and NPO is claiming it’s rooted out all the bad actors.

When people ask whether NPO has changed, I think it is reasonable to point out that they’re still a dictatorship — which, at its heart, is what the August Revolution is all about.

Fauxia wrote:

Jar Wattinree wrote:We actually had regional elections not long ago for who would become the next Emperor. Naturally, everyone voted for Xoriet.

Unfortunately, The Seeker of Power couped the new Emperor and reinstated East Durthang so we're kinda stuck now.

Well, Jar Jar, you realize Xoriet is too well liked and thus in a REAL democracy, Xoriet would be banned from running so there is actually a choice.

Now, now, you're saying we couldn't vote for the Xorietyrant because she's that popular?