The Rejected Realms Embassy

[Solorni]

Still larger than TP and Lazarus combined

I somehow doubt that, aren't you retired yet? I'm sure Balder could find a more competent delegate., but fuck it. I guess activity is measured by "party RPs" and minimal government activity even when you compare apples to oranges. If you had an inkling of how either region operates you'd might learn a thing or two. That could be asking for too much though. Keep your imported "citizens" and worthless posts which serve as a giant wank circle.

Well, I've learned how not to run a region from them. Likely why Balder has such an active and strong community. Government activity in Balder surpasses all activity in both regions combined anyhow.

Perhaps if your regions governments were active you wouldn't have to post here so much and threadjack constantly?

[The Blaatschapen]

The threadjack regarding GCR activities of regions that are not TRR stops now.

The Blaatschapen - NS Moderator

[Solorni]

My apologies for my part in it.

[Frattastan II]

Update no. 16, December 2013

Hallo? Hallo! Newly-elected Foreign Affairs Officer Guy here, with my first ever TRR update.

Officer Elections

In a response to inactivity by the previous crop of Officers, Delegate Frattastan proposed the holding of regular elections for the four positions. Officers are generally tasked with aiding the Delegate in his executive duties, with their roles being determined by him. Under the proposed amendment, drafted by Guy, elections are to be held every four months. The Amendment was carried without a lone objecting vote.

Previously, elections to the Officer positions, like the ones for all other political positions in the Realms, were conducted under the unique Challenge system under which an incumbent holds their office until they are successfully challenged by another citizen. Under the new system, while incumbent Officers may still be challenged, they will also have to face elections scheduled every April, August and December.

Wopruthien was the only Officer who sought to recontest his position in the first ever TRR Officer elections of the kind. Alongside him, citizens Unibot, Horse, Christian Democrats and Guy also vied for election to one of the four positions - meaning one was destined to miss out. Following a well-fought campaign, it was ultimately Horse who had to miss out, with voters turning to more familiar faces to the region - albeit some returning after a long bout of inactivity (or rather, activity elsewhere). The new crop of Officers, who all received the roles they requested from Frattastan, stands as follows:

* Christian Democrats (Internal Affairs)
* Guy (Foreign Affairs)
* Unibot (Media)
* Wopruthien (Culture)


Curbing the Delegate's Powers, ft. a new flag?

Surprisingly, that was not the only Constitutional Amendment passed. The Assembly reserved for itself the power to regulate the Delegate's usage of Regional Controls and WA actions, which was previously entirely within the Delegate's prerogative.

As TRRers sought to establish their regional flag in statute, the realisation that our current flag is quite an antique hit the citizenry. Calls were made to replace the low-resolution flag with a more modern version. None of the proposed flags garnered much support, as they did not quite capture the feel of TRR's old flag.

Eventually, the Assembly passed the Flag Act, enshrining our current regional flag as the official TRR flag and requiring the Delegate to fly it.



Think you can do better? Let us know!


Endotarters

TRR has attracted a wide range of new endotarters to the region, most notably the (not so) mysterious Liegeois. Despite imperialists' best efforts to invade the region, which included mass-TGing all World Assembly nations around the NS world stating that they must endorse Liegeois (and not endorse frattastan) in order to participate in a faux World Assembly conference, Liegeois' endorsement numbers quickly dwindled, even with the addition of foreign troops to back him up.


The Rejected Times restarted!

Following his election to Officer, Unibot resolved to quickly restart the Rejected Realms' media department. The first issue of the new Times was a great success, featuring commentary on the developments in Osiris, an interview with Dalimbar, and assorted regional and interregional news. At the time of writing, a special Christmas edition of the Times is in printing.

Probably recognising his knack towards inducing controversy, Frattastan was overheard threatening Unibot that his role will be changed to "Huggling Fratt" should he slip-up. We wish Unibot the best of luck in his role.


New Face on the Citizenship Council

In-line with TRR's complicated system for appointments to its Citizenship Council (I deserve a prize for it), the senior-most Officer Wopruthien nominated none other than Delegate Frattastan to replace Abbey on the Council, tasked with processing citizenship applications. Frattastan was confirmed by the Assembly with a 17-3 vote. During the confirmation process, some citizens were concerned with a potential conflict of interests for a Councillor to simultaneously hold the position of Delegate. Nevertheless, the citizenry generally believe that it is not an issue, and that Frattastan is the "best man for the job".


Osiris

The Rejected Realms has come to the decision to suspend diplomatic relations with Osiris, due to the political instability which it has been affected by in the past year. We hope that we may restore relations with Osiris soon, and wish it all the best in the meantime.


Rejected Realms Army

In spite of a slowdown in late December, overall RRA activity has increased since our last foreign update, with defenders from the Rejected Realms protecting several regions threatened by invaders (Antarctic Alliance, Antifascist Allstars, Galts Gulch, Sapientia, Middle Earth, Deep Space and Christmas to mention a few), helping the natives of The United States in a refound, and assisting our longtime allies in Lazarus on two occasions.

Following Lazarus's decision to establish a defender military, the Rejected Realms Army has also been the first group to cooperate with them, running a number of joint RRA-LLA missions during the minor update.

IRC quote

We haven't really been that funny recently. Abbey has been dumping lots of glitter on me.

[Unibot III]

The Independent Order - The Rejected Realms Treaty of Harmony
17/02/2015

We, The Rejected Realms and The Independent Order are happy to announce that we're entering into a new alliance with the passage of The Independent Order - The Rejected Realms Treaty of Harmony (2015). This new treaty - an exciting prospect for both of us - will serve as a firm foundation for a bright future between our two regions.

The focus of the treaty is on mutual recognition of our sovereignty, mutual defense and cooperation on cultural and military affairs.

Text

---

We the sovereign regions of The Rejected Realms and The Independent Order:

ENCOURAGED by our correspondence at the NS World Fair III,

RECOGNISING the commons bonds between our two regions,

DESIRING to formalise relations and strengthen the bonds between our two regions,

UNDERSTANDING that formal relations would help foster a mutually beneficial, constructive diplomatic relationship,

HAVE AGREED as follows:

Article I - Sovereignty and Legitimacy

1 § The parties to this treaty recognize the government of each region, based upon its constitutions and laws, as legitimate, and will not extend that recognition to any government that comes to power through means not prescribed by law, which shall be determined by the legitimate government in question.

2 § Both signatories agree to recognize each other as sovereign entities with the sovereign authority to govern themselves.

Article II - Non-Aggression

1 § The signatories vow neither to attack the home region of the other party nor participate in any action with the intent to overthrow their legitimate government.

2 § The signatories will refrain from conspiring, either directly or through a third party, to destabilize or overthrow the legitimate government of either party.

3 § The signatories will refrain from conducting clandestine operations, espionage, or other forms of spying against either party.

4 § Both signatories will, in good faith, report any known threat or concern related to the other party's security, to the appropriate security organs.

Article III - Mutual Defense

1 § Both signatories agree to provide military aid to defend the security and sovereignty of the other party’s region. They will provide this military aid at the request of the other party, or if the signatory believes that a state of emergency exists in which the other party is unable to request military aid, and if the signatory believes that the request comes following a first strike attack against the other party’s region.

2 § Both signatories also agree to defend each others' delegacies in times of war.

3 § A signatory is always at liberty to refuse receiving military aid.

Article IV - Cultural, Military and Intelligence Cooperation

1 § Both signatories agree to promote cultural diffusion and exchange between their two regions, such as through interregional conferences, discussions, or ventures, at the discretion of their governments.

2 § Both signatories agree to military cooperation on joint missions, as the discretion of their respective military commands.

3 § In pursuing cooperation in military operations, both signatories agree that participation on the opposite sides of a military engagement does not automatically constitute hostility or an attack on either signatory.

4 § Both signatories agree to provide intelligence information at the request of the other party, as long as this information does not harm their own security or jeopardize ongoing intelligence gathering operations.

5 § Both signatories are obliged to provide intelligence information to the other party if it refers to an immediate security concern to said signatory.

Article V - Diplomacy

1 § Both signatories shall maintain open embassies (in-game and out-of-game) with one another.

2 § This treaty shall be deposited in a publicly accessible area of the community forums of both parties.

Article VI. Suspension of Terms and Termination of the Treaty

1 § Either signatory may terminate the treaty with five days' notice, posted publicly in the forum of deposit in both regions, after which the terms of treaty are no longer binding on either party.

2 § Both signatories agree to attempt to seek a diplomatic solution before the termination of this treaty.

Signed,

---

Grand Chancellor of The Independent Order


Delegate of The Rejected Realms.

---

[Unibot III]

This was a statement that the Rejected Realms published to Lazarus earlier this morning:

Statement on Recent Events in Lazarus

For the past few hours, the Rejected Realms has observed events as they have unfolded in Lazarus and attempted to act as a mediator to uphold international law, peace, civility and the rule of law in this difficult and heated crisis.

We are, nonetheless, dismayed at the current situation:

- The constitution has been dissolved unilaterally.
- Foreign, unidentified troops have piled into Lazarus.
- Members have been removed without justification.
- The forum’s transparency has been curtailed.
- A government-in-exile has emerged.
- Opposition from The North Pacific, Taijitu, Spiritus and the Renegade Islands Alliance, amongst other regions, has been voiced.

Our attempts to create a dialogue on the subject with the delegate have, thus far, hit an impasse. While the situation appears to have stablised (in the sense that there have been no recent developments), the way in which this transition has been pursued has been inexcusably unilateral and without deference to the rule of law, leaving the Rejected Realms no choice but to officially condemn the delegate's actions as being not only extralegal, but unjust and wrong.

We, as allies and friends, have watched and supported Lazarus's transitions from Mandate 6 to Mandate 7 to Mandate 8; as one commentator remarked, Lazarus, it seems, has always been a site of continual rebirth. Even so, it must be said that this transition appears different - the local opposition greater, the unilaterialism more prominent. Rejects from Lazarus have been sent to our shores, talking to others on our Regional Message Board in dismay; they want answers and moreover, they want to go home. We will continue to monitor the situation and consider all options to assist in any way possible to see this situation resolved.

In the meantime, we have a number of open questions from others that we would like to see answered by Stujenske:

1. Wlll the exiled members be allowed to return? If so, when?

2. Will there be attempts at mediation, and a potential reconciliation, with exiled members?

3. Will Lazarus remain a sovereign region, free from the interference of a colonial power?

4. Will a Mandate 9 be released? If so, when?


Unibot
Delegate of The Rejected Realms

[Funkadelia]

On behalf of the People of Lazarus, I thank Unibot and The Rejected Realms for their condemnation of Stujenske's actions and their line of questioning towards him.

TRR have been great allies for Lazarus in the past, and I am optimistic about our collaboration in the future.

[Sad-States]

Very nicely written, and a great statement. Great job!

[The Church of Satan]

We're happy to see that TRR is so inquisitive about the shady and illegal acts of Stujenske and TRR has my support.

[Onderkelkia]

3. Will Lazarus remain a sovereign region, free from the interference of a colonial power?

The New Pacific Order answered this question when it announced the banning of Feux's internal political opponents on 16 September 2013.

What we are seeing now is the NPO doing the same thing to a different set of political opponents - a set which on this occasion consists of certain defenders rather than imperialists - although even that fact did not stop you initially presenting excuses for Stujenske and Feux's actions before succumbing to this.

What is happening in Lazarus now is outrageous and unreasonable (as was what happened with the purge of September 2013). However, the fundamental problem is the gripping control established over Lazarus by an oligarchic clique of Francoists and defenders. The NPO is now tightening the leash.

[Jean Pierre Trudeau]

The NPO is now tightening the leash.

Hasn't the dog already chewed through the leash, and is now running free? But seriously? Feux is behind all of this shit? Not overly surprising to say the least but a pretty ballsy move if you ask me.

[Onderkelkia]

The NPO is now tightening the leash.

Hasn't the dog already chewed through the leash, and is now running free?

The active community of Lazarus (most of them beneficiaries of the NPO's first purge in September 2013) may be 'running free', if that is how you wish to categorise the state of being ejected and setting up a government in exile, but the region remains with Stujenske and Feux for the time being.

But seriously? Feux is behind all of this shit? Not overly surprising to say the least but a pretty ballsy move if you ask me.

Clearly, launching a flagrant coup following a purge of your opponents is a bold move - but it is just a repetition of Feux's previous actions in Lazarus.

[Unibot III]

Twenty four hours has passed since the Rejected Realms asked four eminently fair and rather administrative questions to Stujenske and his government. Let me recount them:

1. Wlll the exiled members be allowed to return? If so, when?
2. Will there be attempts at mediation, and a potential reconciliation, with exiled members?
3. Will Lazarus remain a sovereign region, free from the interference of a colonial power?
4. Will a Mandate 9 be released? If so, when?

Those questions have gone unanswered. During that time, the international community has come to condemn Stujenske's actions (referring of course to the recent withdrawal of embassies and the outreach they have made to the exiled government on the part of the South Pacific, the North Pacific, Osiris, Taijitu, Wintreath, Renegade Islands Alliance, Spiritus and others). They too have acknowledged both Stujenske's appalling disregard for the rule of law in Lazarus and his failure to respond to any questions related to the future well-being of Lazarus and its constitutional law.

Stujenske's priorities as delegate have been embarrassingly backwards - taking the time, of course, to suppress dissidents on the Regional Message Board, but not to respond to even one of four simple questions from a long-time treatied ally regarding reconciliation, constitutionalism and, most pressingly, whether or not Lazarus will remain a sovereign state! This entire fiasco - the profound disregard for the rule of law, the substantial reliance on unidentified foreign troops, unanswered questions, stalling tactics, suppression of dissent, and the curtailment of forum viewing privileges - smacks of a rogue administration.

Bearing this in mind, the Rejected Realms will begin negotiations with the Lazarus Underground government, especially with regards to the status of our in-game embassies and our present treaties with Lazarus. We urge Stujenske and his administration to reconsider their path of action - reach out to former exiled members, offer reconciliation and negotiate the terms of a new constitution - before it collapses entirely; that is to say: if Stujenske continues this medieval approach to domestic and foreign policy, he will bleed further native support and endorsements with each passing moment, exhausting both the patience of the international community and the finite resources of its unidentified armed forces and benefactors.

We hope to see a peaceful, civil and swift conclusion to these unfortunate events, but frankly, our hope there is wearing thin. Nevertheless, we will resolve as rejects always have, that if a conclusion cannot be peaceful, civil, or swift, if nothing else, let it be just. Stately negotiations with the Lazarus Underground will begin immediately.

Yours,
Unibot.
Delegate of The Rejected Realms.

[Solorni]

Who are the colonial powers?

[Unibot III]

Who are the colonial powers?

We asked in the previous statement whether Lazarus would remain a sovereign state, free from colonial powers - this question was never answered.

[Lazmac]

A strong statement from The Rejected Realms, it's good to see support for the government-in-exile and very justified criticism of Stujenske's maladministration of Lazarus.

[Libetarian Republics]

On Lazarus and ‘The New Lazarus Order’

Recent events has escalated the conflict in Lazarus. The Rejected Realms is sadden and shocked by the new developments that have occurred.

For some time, the Rejected Realms was hesitant about withdrawing our in-game embassy with Lazarus. It should be said that the Reject-Lazarene relationship is one of the oldest in NationStates, with a treaty older than the current constitutional government of the Rejected Realms. We are disappointed and dismayed to see the region reach its current state of affairs, and it is with a heavy heart that we withdraw our in-game embassy with said region. The Rejected Realms extends its support to the native community of Lazarus and the Lazarus Underground State in this great time of need.

The speculations of the New Pacific Order (NPO) involvement in the Lazarus has been confirmed by A Mean Old Man (AMOM), a former long-standing senator of the NPO. Quoting AMOM, “The original, eldest Sinker region of Lazarus is now a member region of the New Pacific Order.” We recognize this not only as a delegate gone rogue in Lazarus, but an act of imperialism and foreign aggression on the region. As a region that constitutionally values the right of self-determination, we severely condemn the New Pacific Order for its involvement in overthrowing an allied community and refuse to recognize the NPO’s claim over Lazarus. As a result, we will be withdrawing our in-game and forum embassies with the NPO.

The Peace Accord, a non-aggression pact signed by both the NPO and TRR, does not indicate any clauses regarding embassies and condemnations. Therefore, the Peace Accord will remain for the present moment, notwithstanding our decision to withdraw embassies with The Pacific.

We sincerely hope to see a resolution to this conflict, and ultimately bring back peace to a region that we have been partners and friends with for generations.

Yours sincerely,
Libetarian Republics,
Officer of Foreign Affairs.

[Onderkelkia]

The moment when the NPO assumed effective control of Lazarus was September 2013, when they purged their political opponents, followed by what was a relationship with the defender world. What we are seeing now is merely the formalisation of that situation but with their defender political opponents removed (many of which had no substantial history in Lazarus prior to its defender turn in 2013, unlike those who were removed in the first purge).

I could take the complaints of TRR and other defender regions a lot more seriously if they had protested at the point of the NPO's actual takeover, as opposed to colluding in it. The "People's Republic of Lazarus" was never a legitimate regime because it was founded on the bedrock of that purge.

[Lazmac]

The moment when the NPO assumed effective control of Lazarus was September 2013, when they purged their political opponents, followed by what was a relationship with the defender world. What we are seeing now is merely the formalisation of that situation but with their defender political opponents removed (many of which had no substantial history in Lazarus prior to its defender turn in 2013, unlike those who were removed in the first purge).

I could take the complaints of TRR and other defender regions a lot more seriously if they had protested at the point of the NPO's actual takeover, as opposed to colluding in it. The "People's Republic of Lazarus" was never a legitimate regime because it was founded on the bedrock of that purge.

I don't disagree with this assessment, to be honest, and I hope the defender world has learned something about accepting questionable regimes for short-term political victory or convenience. I also hope, in general, that the defender world has learned an important lesson about the New Pacific Order which can be summed up in one sentence: CrazyGirl was right and everyone else was wrong.

Nonetheless, Onder, even if you don't see the PRL as legitimate either, restoration of the PRL is the best hope of establishing a government in Lazarus that can become legitimized through democratic institutional and cultural reform. That certainly will not happen under the NPO/NLO, and it will not happen under anyone else either because the PRL community is now the only extant community with any claim to Lazarus. So, while I don't disagree with what you're saying, it would behoove the independent and imperialist sphere(s) to back the PRL. A permanent victory for the NPO in Lazarus will have ramifications beyond Lazarus, including ramifications for independent and imperialist interests (e.g., alliances and partnerships with various other Feeders and Sinkers now threatened by an overtly expansionist NPO). The NPO has made clear that Lazarus is the beginning.

[The South Polish Union]

The moment when the NPO assumed effective control of Lazarus was September 2013, when they purged their political opponents, followed by what was a relationship with the defender world. What we are seeing now is merely the formalisation of that situation but with their defender political opponents removed (many of which had no substantial history in Lazarus prior to its defender turn in 2013, unlike those who were removed in the first purge).

I could take the complaints of TRR and other defender regions a lot more seriously if they had protested at the point of the NPO's actual takeover, as opposed to colluding in it. The "People's Republic of Lazarus" was never a legitimate regime because it was founded on the bedrock of that purge.

I love the rock and the hard place Onder is stuck between. On the one hand Feux's "purge" of his opponents was the prelude to the non-NPO-affiliated PRL, which the UIAF opposed both because of Feux's purge and because of their FRA membership.

On the other hand, UIAF vehemently opposes the NPO and their dream of a pan-GCR empire.

This situation, where the UIAF is unable to take a clear side, is leading Onder to go to some extreme lengths of revisionism. For example, he must now say that Feux's 2013 "purge" was the prelude to an NPO takeover and that the PRL was an NPO puppet government. Such a claim is demonstrably false to someone with only a cursory knowledge of the current situation in Lazarus. Had the PRL been an NPO puppet, the NPO would have had no reason to overthrow it in these past weeks. Furthermore, with the ascension of the PRL, the NPO-affiliated former delegate Feux left Lazarus to become a Senator in the NPO. He was no longer involved in Lazarus' government, and nor were any other NPO members (with the exception of estranged ex-Senator Milograd)

The UIAF and it's propaganda machine would like to have you believe that all of Lazarus' recent history was an NPO conspiracy. From the NPO stooge Feux's dictatorship to the NPO puppet PRL to the NPO stooge Stujenske's current coup. In reality, only the last of their claims has any significant basis in fact, and their attempts to discredit the PRL through some conspiratorial NPO affiliation are laughable at best and their attempts to cast the PRL in this light are merely a sign of their futile attempts to weasel of of the diplomatic quagmire they've created by their actions towards both parties involved here.

Perhaps, when the UIAF's statements have some basis in fact rather than Soviet-style lies and revisionism, the rest of the world can start taking them seriously.

[Onderkelkia]

The moment when the NPO assumed effective control of Lazarus was September 2013, when they purged their political opponents, followed by what was a relationship with the defender world. What we are seeing now is merely the formalisation of that situation but with their defender political opponents removed (many of which had no substantial history in Lazarus prior to its defender turn in 2013, unlike those who were removed in the first purge).

I could take the complaints of TRR and other defender regions a lot more seriously if they had protested at the point of the NPO's actual takeover, as opposed to colluding in it. The "People's Republic of Lazarus" was never a legitimate regime because it was founded on the bedrock of that purge.

I love the rock and the hard place Onder is stuck between. On the one hand Feux's "purge" of his opponents was the prelude to the non-NPO-affiliated PRL, which the UIAF opposed both because of Feux's purge and because of their FRA membership.

On the other hand, UIAF vehemently opposes the NPO and their dream of a pan-GCR empire.

This situation, where the UIAF is unable to take a clear side, is leading Onder to go to some extreme lengths of revisionism. For example, he must now say that Feux's 2013 "purge" was the prelude to an NPO takeover and that the PRL was an NPO puppet government. Such a claim is demonstrably false to someone with only a cursory knowledge of the current situation in Lazarus. Had the PRL been an NPO puppet, the NPO would have had no reason to overthrow it in these past weeks. Furthermore, with the ascension of the PRL, the NPO-affiliated former delegate Feux left Lazarus to become a Senator in the NPO. He was no longer involved in Lazarus' government, and nor were any other NPO members (with the exception of estranged ex-Senator Milograd)

The UIAF and it's propaganda machine would like to have you believe that all of Lazarus' recent history was an NPO conspiracy. From the NPO stooge Feux's dictatorship to the NPO puppet PRL to the NPO stooge Stujenske's current coup. In reality, only the last of their claims has any significant basis in fact, and their attempts to discredit the PRL through some conspiratorial NPO affiliation are laughable at best and their attempts to cast the PRL in this light are merely a sign of their futile attempts to weasel of of the diplomatic quagmire they've created by their actions towards both parties involved here.

Perhaps, when the UIAF's statements have some basis in fact rather than Soviet-style lies and revisionism, the rest of the world can start taking them seriously.

The UIAF no longer exists, so you can cut out that aspect of your rant - which I suspect has much more to do with your lingering resentment over Slavia.

The People's Republic of Lazarus flowed directly from the NPO's September 2013 purge. Afterwards the culture and ideology of Lazarus was visibly transformed along Francoist lines and Lazarus policy juggled the competing demands of defenderism with subservience to the New Pacific Order.

The fact that the NPO has now decided to formalise its control of Lazarus does not mean it did not have control before - merely that it is asserting itself now that internal opposition has arisen from others within the PRL - yet the NPO had an abiding influence throughout the PRL and crucially at the creation.

You only need to look at Feux's own words on the matter:

Everything you loved was fake, the PRL was fake, and the NPO created all of it.

Your suggestion that 2013 purge and the coming of the PRL were unconnected is the nonsensical revisionist line here - far from my argument being some contortion invented as an attempt to "weasel of of [sic] the" present situation, I and many others have been making this point consistently since 2013.

There is no logical inconsistency for the LKE. The difficulty is for those defenders who now oppose the regime after having supported the previous coup.

[The South Polish Union]

The UIAF no longer exists[.]

Good.

[S]o you can cut out that aspect of your rant - which has much more to do with your lingering resentment following Slavia.

Trying to discredit me because of my former affiliation with Slavia is pathetic, Onder. You should know better.

The People's Republic of Lazarus flowed directly from the NPO's September 2013 purge. Afterwards the culture and ideology of Lazarus knows was visibly transformed along Francoist lines and Lazarus policy juggled the competing demands of defenderism with subservience to the New Pacific Order.

The fact that the NPO has now decided to formalise its control of Lazarus does not mean it did not have control before - merely that it is asserting itself now that internal opposition has arisen from others within the PRL - yet the NPO had an abiding influence throughout the PRL and crucially at the creation.

You only need to look at Feux's own words on the matter:

Everything you loved was fake, the PRL was fake, and the NPO created all of it.

Your suggestion that 2013 purge and the coming of the PRL were unconnected is the the nonsensical revisionist line here - far from my argument being some contortion invented as an attempt to "weasel of of [sic] the" present situation, I and many others have been making this point consistently since 2013.

If your assumption is true, then the NPO certainly chose a very strange way to formalize its control over Lazarus and the method they have chosen appears to have shown itself to be counterproductive. For an org that's trying to orchestrate a pan-GCR conspiracy, they're ccertainly doing it rather badly.

However, this assumption (i.e. that the NPO controlled the PRL) is based only on one statement by an NPO member, that is, a member of an organization that the LKE opposes and distrusts. Is it now the LKE's policy to take the statements of their opponents as a fact? If Feux were to claim that the NPO controlled TWP, TEP, and Osiris, would the LKE accept that statement as fact? Or does the LKE only accept their opponents statements as fact when it lines up with the LKE's preconceived view of the situation. This last scenario would appear to be the true one, given the LKE's past affiliation with the now-defunct UIAF, which engaged in this practice frequently in regard to their policies towards the FRA.

The idea that the NPO controlled the PRL needs further substantiation. First, it assumes a level of NPO incompetence and ignorance of GCR politics that is, quite frankly, unreasonable given the NPO's 10-year history in that field. Second, it is only substantiated by one NPO, whose comments may have been either satirical in nature, or intended to give a false sense of the NPO's power. Third, it assumes that the NPO needs to coup itself to control a region, an idea which is patently absurd. Fourth, the LKE's narrative unfortunately relies on a false cause fallacy to hold true. Therefore, your assumption that the NPO controlled the PRL cannot stand.

We must therefore assume that the PRL was not an NPO puppet. This means that we must postulate that Feux's 2013 "purge" was independent of the rise of the PRL, or at least that it was not what made the PRL possible. While this assumption may be arguable, it is no less arguable than the LKE's set of assumption and is certainly a more reasonable assumption to make than the wealth of assumptions which must hold true if the LKE's narrative were to be assumed as true. While the LKE may not like it, the idea that whichever solution has the fewest assumptions should be selected is a very basic principle of logical reasoning.

There is no logical inconsistency for the LKE. The difficulty is for those defenders who now oppose the regime after having supported the previous coup.

On the contrary, the LKE's hostility to both the PRL and the NPO has led them to concoct a revisionist narrative with little grounding in fact and which is abhorrent to the principles of logical reasoning. Such raving conspiracy theories have no place in a reasonable discussion on foreign policy towards Lazarus or any other region.

[Onderkelkia]

The UIAF no longer exists[.]

Good.

[S]o you can cut out that aspect of your rant - which has much more to do with your lingering resentment following Slavia.

Trying to discredit me because of my former affiliation with Slavia is pathetic, Onder. You should know better.

I have not suggested that your affiliation with Slavia is discreditable. That misrepresents my remarks.

I am stating that I suspect your reasons for launching into that ludicrous diatribe against the UIAF - despite the fact it no longer even exists and has no connection to the ongoing dispute - stemmed from resentment over the UIAF's invasion of Slavia.

One can think of little other reason why you would have launched into this. Others who are familiar with your vendetta over this issue may think similarly.

If your assumption is true, then the NPO certainly chose a very strange way to formalize its control over Lazarus and the method they have chosen appears to have shown itself to be counterproductive. For an org that's trying to orchestrate a pan-GCR conspiracy, they're ccertainly doing it rather badly.

There's no reason why the NPO launching a coup of this kind is inconsistent with the assumption that the NPO's 2013 purge led to the PRL.

The NPO chose to launch a coup now to retain control because opposition from the defender faction within the PRL grew. However, the fact that this opposition existed does not alter the fact that the defender faction went along with the NPO faction for a long time or the foundational role of the NPO.

Merely because a group of dissenters existed within the PRL - by this stage, well over a year later - does not eradicate the NPO's role in forging the PRL or the NPO's continuing influence and (as the coup in fact illustrates) ultimate control over Lazarus under the course of the PRL.

Now, the NPO could have acted more subtly - but they have always had a wild streak and their pan-GCR ambitions gave this route some attaction.

However, this assumption (i.e. that the NPO controlled the PRL) is based only on one statement by an NPO member, that is, a member of an organization that the LKE opposes and distrusts. Is it now the LKE's policy to take the statements of their opponents as a fact? If Feux were to claim that the NPO controlled TWP, TEP, and Osiris, would the LKE accept that statement as fact? Or does the LKE only accept their opponents statements as fact when it lines up with the LKE's preconceived view of the situation. This last scenario would appear to be the true one, given the LKE's past affiliation with the now-defunct UIAF, which engaged in this practice frequently in regard to their policies towards the FRA.

The argument that the NPO, working alongside the defenders, controlled the PRL has been made by the LKE and others since the September 2013 purge based on the nature of that takeover. It is not a case where we have simply seen Feux's post and decided to invent an argument based around it.

TWP, TEP and Osiris all have an extremely different relationship with the NPO to that which existed between the NPO and the PRL. For one, their governments didn't come into power following an NPO purge of all key internal political opponents. Moroever, those regions did not embrace a Francoist identity and have senior NPO officials (such as Feux's position as root administrator following the Lazarus forum change) in key posts at various times.

You've used the term "absurd". To compare those regions to Lazarus before this coup, in the nature of their relationship with the NPO, is genuinely absurd.

The idea that the NPO controlled the PRL needs further substantiation. First, it assumes a level of NPO incompetence and ignorance of GCR politics that is, quite frankly, unreasonable given the NPO's 10-year history in that field.

I address the question of the NPO's motivations for launching the coup above.

Second, it is only substantiated by one NPO, whose comments may have been either satirical in nature, or intended to give a false sense of the NPO's power.

You're talking about the Delegate who actually performed the 2013 coup of Lazarus, who was also crucial to the latest coup (through his control of root admin on these forums) and who has exerted a key behind the scenes influence in the affairs of the PRL.

His comments have been echoed by similar remarks regarding the nature of the PRL and the purge which preceded it by Milograd on the Lazarus RMB.

Given that the NPO has conducted two purges, it is reasonable to accept that they viewed Lazarus in the way that Feux's remarks suggests - as a possession.

Third, it assumes that the NPO needs to coup itself to control a region, an idea which is patently absurd.

On the contrary, the argument is that the NPO was able to exert a crucial political influence on the PRL before the coup. If internal opposition grew between defender and NPO elements, as it did, it is possible that this may no longer have been the case, hence the need to perform a coup.

Fourth, the LKE's narrative unfortunately relies on a false cause fallacy to hold true. Therefore, your assumption that the NPO controlled the PRL cannot stand.

Asserting that correlation doesn't mean causation without delving into the substance of the issue is all well and good, but frankly the idea that the 2013 Lazarus purge was not a cause of the establishment of the PRL (in which Milograd and Feux were to become key influences) stretches all credulity. The NPO purged Lazarus of their political opponents and Lazarus then underwent a fundamental transformation into a defender/Francoist dictatorship.

We must therefore assume that the PRL was not an NPO puppet. This means that we must postulate that Feux's 2013 "purge" was independent of the rise of the PRL, or at least that it was not what made the PRL possible.

You can "postulate" that the NPO's 2013 purge was "not what made the PRL possible" all you like, but it is divorced from the reality of that chain of events.

These events formed part of the same transition in Lazarus's political condition, not least by removing potential opponents of those changes.

While this assumption may be arguable, it is no less arguable than the LKE's set of assumption and is certainly a more reasonable assumption to make than the wealth of assumptions which must hold true if the LKE's narrative were to be assumed as true. While the LKE may not like it, the idea that whichever solution has the fewest assumptions should be selected is a very basic principle of logical reasoning.

Simply listing some (tenuous) counter-arguments and then asserting your opponent has made more "assumptions", without considering the weaknesses in your own argument, and then announcing you have made fewer assumptions so therefore must be correct, is a cheap debating trick.

You are being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to ignore the NPO's role in instigating and ending the PRL according to its political objectives.

On the contrary, the LKE's hostility to both the PRL and the NPO has led them to concoct a revisionist narrative with little grounding in fact and which is abhorrent to the principles of logical reasoning. Such raving conspiracy theories have no place in a reasonable discussion on foreign policy towards Lazarus or any other region.

"Such raving conspiracies" that Cormac, not a fan of the LKE, has stated he doesn't disagree with them and which are matched by Feux's frank admissions.

I reiterate that the LKE and other regions have made these arguments well before the latest events. This has not been concocted as a way of squaring the issue of the hostility to the PRL and the NPO. The LKE has no need to despair over the fact that the NPO and defenders are no longer friends.

[Southern Bellz]

I agree with Onder that supporting the purges that established the PRL directly has resulted in the situation where the PRL finds themselves purged. While I was also critical of the PRL sanctioned purges, the violation of regional sovereignty is what I ultimately find much more troubling.

Supporting defenders gave the NPO agents in Laz a blank check to move against imperialist leaning opposition, and now that they were out of the way, they were able to move against the rest of the opposition. Tragic, really.

[North East Somerset]

I agree with Onder that supporting the purges that established the PRL directly has resulted in the situation where the PRL finds themselves purged. While I was also critical of the PRL sanctioned purges, the violation of regional sovereignty is what I ultimately find much more troubling.

Supporting defenders gave the NPO agents in Laz a blank check to move against imperialist leaning opposition, and now that they were out of the way, they were able to move against the rest of the opposition. Tragic, really.

Precisely, SB. But at the time, few cared. Everyone talking about the importance of Constitutions and Democracy now was quite happy to let a completely unconstitutional purge occur. This was over 30% of the regions legislature, and a Cabinet Minister, purged by the Delegate unilaterally instead of undergoing the specifically designed procedure for removing Councillors (which wouldn't have worked because it needed a 75% supermajority). But no one cared about the law then - and it was only a few imperialists - all the big players were preoccupied with the chaos in Osiris.

But it just goes to show that this whole affair and its course has very little to do with one side genuinely being more right than the other, and like always, everything to do with R/D and it's associated power factions. Otherwise why turn a blind eye then, but kick up a huge fuss now. Cause this time its defenders under threat, this time its an FRA region, this time - something must be done - for the sake of the children!

I'm not actually sure very much can be done though, I would wish the liberation luck, but you'll need more than that.